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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

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My contention is that any increase in attendances during Super League is more than likely offset to a significant degree by the loss of attendances from all cup competitions in existence prior to Super League, a loss which I'd estimate at between 300K and 400K when comparing seasons 1991/92 to 2012.

 

Those cup attendance losses were also walk-up attendances of which we'll probably never see the likes of again. They've been replaced by discounted season ticket holders who are averse to attending any other games where they actually have to pay.

 

Ackromans post saying attendances had gone down over the years prompted me to look at the aggregate figures for all competitions. Roughly speaking people went to as many games in 1991/2 as do today.

 

You are way off beam on the loss of attendances at cup games, it's less than that but a significant loss none the less. It's balance by a significant gain at league games and I do take your point to a point about some of the discounting taking place but again it doesn't really affect a general summation that we haven't lost out on fans going to games.

 

But it's a business. As you indicate what is the point in free/dirt cheap tickets (apart from the additional spends at the ground each attendee provided), but tried, generally failed and moved on?. 

 

Your argument cannot logically stop there though because we need a comparison of the aggregate sponsors prize money in the old days of league, county, regal and challenge cups to be set against the value of sponsorship for the SKY Superleague and the Challenge cup today?

 

It would seem that Superleague has brought home a lot more bacon cups or not.  

Edited by The Parksider

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What?

 

Potential to be big RL places? If they do then London, Paris, Barcelona and Rome have even bigger potential...... by gum lad Paris 17,000 crowd at the start, London 10,000 crowds at the start, 18,000 in Barcelona for Les Cats and Warrington, and Rome not a Rugby City? Check out the six nations.

 

I find it weird that so many people scoffed at the idea these faraway big city places could be big in RL, now propose a suburb in Manchester could be huge. That's cost me and you another post on our huge posts count. The writer should buy us a pint each for that.

ll those large European cities you list do have potential.As with my examples, that's all ghey have, potential and less scope for it happening than the UK examples. I hope you noticed Skolars was on my list ( Last time I looked they were in London). Everton are a tiny suburb of Livrpool. Swinton is a suburb of an even bigger city, Manchester, and I think I read a story about Dr Khoukash wanting to buy them and develop a stadium/retail park in Swinton centre. I call that potential whether it happens is of course a moot point.

I think some people should look at the definition of potential as opposed to probable or certain.

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Direct experience: even at their most recent best, in the early 1960's, Swinton was barely viable as a club. If you can't pack the fans in when you win Div 1 two years in succession then to be honest, you never will. That is not to belittle the efforts of those who continue to work hard for the club. But potential? No.


Four legs good - two legs bad

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Well at the risk of being into my own fantasy land a NRL Capital-City Europa league then running along side our SL... mind you needs big investment and hence NRL involvement.

 

Not really being serious but just taking forward your initial thoughts to warm my heart - a serious project for Dr K maybe...

 

Not into fantasy RL I spent 35 years following Hunslet to a locked door!! I think an Anglo French league with a big city spine is easy to organise from Manchester, Leeds and Hull through London to Perpignan and Toulouse. Instead they organised P&R. Sorry John that's it over my posts for the day quota.....

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so people who don't think auto P and R is good for the game don't care? Thanks for that.

 

You're welcome. But I think you chose how to interpret many thoughts to your own ends to generate confrontational discourse.

 

That's not what I'm interested in. So for the record I will expand on that comment that you chose to highlight while ignoring the rest. Maybe I could have put "care about P&R"

 

I will then leave this thread for you and Parky to wait under the bridge for the next gullible idiot like me to come along.

 

By care, I refer to those fans who have been steadily losing interest in the game, namely those in the Championship who have been disenfranchised, the very body of fans the RFL directly referenced when bringing in the 3x8. Those who don't care about P&R are still RL fans. My reference is purely and directly aimed at the RFL statement.

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I refer to those fans who have been steadily losing interest in the game, namely those in the Championship who have been disenfranchised, the very body of fans the RFL directly referenced when bringing in the 3x8. Those who don't care about P&R are still RL fans. My reference is purely and directly aimed at the RFL statement.

 

I had to hang back for this one!!

 

What's your anecdotal or logical evidence for this?

 

Fans come and go all the time. They die, they lose interest, they grow up and become RL fans, then they die, lose interest etc. I know this as I've sat with them for nigh on 50 years.

 

Fans who come into the game travel more nowadays, so they don't necessarily gravitate to the local club they may be attracted straight to starting supporting SL through an SL club in the next town.Fans decide to switch clubs and many fans may have watched Championship sides and now they choose to watch SL sides. They aren't lost to Rugby League. Nor are fans who decide rather than go down the local championship club I'll buy SKY sports instead. We still get the money

 

It looks like your only evidence is "because the RFL said so" but then they got it from KPMG and they won't back their research that supposedly shows the championship who averaged 2,047 fans when P & R was removed now averaging 1,020. 

 

If they get those alleged disenfranchised fans back via P & R fine, but they should remember the fans they will lose by the relegation of Bradford Bulls. They used to attract as many fans as all the lost championship fans put together.........

Edited by The Parksider

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What?

 

Potential to be big RL places? If they do then London, Paris, Barcelona and Rome have even bigger potential...... by gum lad Paris 17,000 crowd at the start, London 10,000 crowds at the start, 18,000 in Barcelona for Les Cats and Warrington, and Rome not a Rugby City? Check out the six nations.

 

I find it weird that so many people scoffed at the idea these faraway big city places could be big in RL, now propose a suburb in Manchester could be huge. That's cost me and you another post on our huge posts count. The writer should buy us a pint each for that.

they do, see my further comments about Swinton et al not being contenders and why


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You're welcome. But I think you chose how to interpret many thoughts to your own ends to generate confrontational discourse.

 

That's not what I'm interested in. So for the record I will expand on that comment that you chose to highlight while ignoring the rest. Maybe I could have put "care about P&R"

 

I will then leave this thread for you and Parky to wait under the bridge for the next gullible idiot like me to come along.

 

By care, I refer to those fans who have been steadily losing interest in the game, namely those in the Championship who have been disenfranchised, the very body of fans the RFL directly referenced when bringing in the 3x8. Those who don't care about P&R are still RL fans. My reference is purely and directly aimed at the RFL statement.

It was a pretty bald unequivocal statement, which was quite offensive. 

I was a committed, full time activist for one of those clubs for 25 years, and am a season ticket holder at another. Disenfranchised? This isn't the government we are talking about, and how people who go and watch a football team of a weekend are/were 'franchised' in the first place I'm not so sure,but the term has that 'victim' feel about it doesn't it? And you can bet your boots that on forums and social media this 'disenfranchised' masses will be building up a head of victimhood steam based on how 'unfair' the new system is.

 

you are talking about three maybe four clubs, none of whom have the ability or the potential to strengthen the competition or broaden it. And having the temerity to think this means that people 'don't care' does it?


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Direct experience: even at their most recent best, in the early 1960's, Swinton was barely viable as a club. If you can't pack the fans in when you win Div 1 two years in succession then to be honest, you never will. That is not to belittle the efforts of those who continue to work hard for the club. But potential? No.

I recall that era and, as I remember, Swinton were RL Champions two years in a row and pulled in 5 to 6,000 fans. This would seem to be better than Salford are currently managing. Are you then saying Salford have no potential because they cannot yet get more than Swinton did.? Bradford were champions in the Peter Fox era but barely got 6,000 to watch them. Do you deny they have potential.? What were Catalans pulling in in the French leagues prior to their SL entry. Not much but people could see and realise their potential and we have what we have now as a result.

If you want to go back in history, when Swinton won all four cups and built a huge 30,000 seat stadium to accommodate their crowds, then I would argue that that demonstrates the potential of the area. Everybody agrees London has potential and they have never averaged 6,000.

As I keep saying potential is what could be not was is or was.

It's a matter of opinion, but, under the right circumstances, I believe Swinton have potential.

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Some have had decent successs in the past Sheffield and Gateshead ( they finished in the top eight, pulled in 3,000 plus crowds and thet did it without Sky money)

.

 

Gateshead got Sky money in the one season they were in $uperleague.

 

Afraid you're day-dreaming again.

Edited by Griff

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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how is the game outside SL going backwards?

CC1 has teams from wales, gloucester, london, hertfordshire, and tyneside

we are told that attendances are increasing in the championship and the competition looks very strong to me, clubs have become more professional, although one or two have lost ground in that department.

I really don't understand that what you describe will ever make the comp grow and become stronger: just the opposite in fact.

It's going backwards when a club from one of the biggest cities in the UK wins the Championship 2 years running and still can't pull in crowds anywhere near 2K. A fantastic club, fantastic coach, fantastic players, no supporters, despite they fact that they have definitely upped their game. The only excuse they have is they are from outside the heartlands, although most are unwilling to class them as still an expansion club. So what chance have all the big cities in the south? 

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It's going backwards when a club from one of the biggest cities in the UK wins the Championship 2 years running and still can't pull in crowds anywhere near 2K. A fantastic club, fantastic coach, fantastic players, no supporters, despite they fact that they have definitely upped their game. The only excuse they have is they are from outside the heartlands, although most are unwilling to class them as still an expansion club. So what chance have all the big cities in the south? 

but wasn't it ever thus with Sheffield? Sheffield's survival and achievement is down to the ability and determination of one man. The club is here to stay in a city that has chronically under recognised it. And is that it? If more people came to watch Sheffield Eagles would that mean the game wasn't going backwards outside SL?


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a 'perpetually struggling club like Bradford'? Really? Is that not an example of picking and choosing'. The Bulls are one of the most significant and successful clubs of the SL era, there records before that time is hugely impressive, despite a catastrophic decline in the early sixties.

 

You have alleged that people pick out the statistics that suit their argument. That's a big call. can you back it up?

What sort of information do you consider credible? The sight of an old woman on a station platform in Wales? 

They were a successful club in the past, so were Wakey, so were Swinton, Dewsbury were Champions in 1973 - the past.  It's 9 years since Bradford even looked like winning anything.  They've been in receivership twice and are in the bottom two of Sujperleague - they have been languishing. If they'd been a horse they'd  be in Tesco's freezer section by now. That's not being selective it's what's happening now, today.


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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What evidence do you have that their division 2 campaign gave them the boost?

 

The M62 led to West Yorkshire by then and Hull used good old money to buy........

 

From Fev....Dave Busfield, Charlie Stone, Keith Bridges, Steve Evans, John Newlove. Vince Farrar

 

From Cas....Knocker Norton, Sammy Lloyd,Charlie Birdsall 

 

From Wakey....Trevor Skerrett, David Topliss

 

That's how they made it to the top in reality, and this is the problem with RL in your area, it's a nursery for big clubs because none of you have the ambition to be one you can ever realise. and as for your dismissal of statistics then I know that even official stats you dismiss as made up. I disagree with you entirely and always have done (at the same time as keeping respect for you as a fine fellow of an  RL fan), and this may help people understand why I've made over 16,000 posts on this subject, 10,000 may have been me disagreeing with 10,000 of yours.........

Regardless of where they players came from, the support that funded the drive to success came from Hull


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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Direct experience: even at their most recent best, in the early 1960's, Swinton was barely viable as a club. If you can't pack the fans in when you win Div 1 two years in succession then to be honest, you never will. That is not to belittle the efforts of those who continue to work hard for the club. But potential? No.

If there's no crowd potential for a champion club at Swinton, what chance is there for a champion club just down the road at Salford?


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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They were a successful club in the past, so were Wakey, so were Swinton, Dewsbury were Champions in 1973 - the past.  It's 9 years since Bradford even looked like winning anything.  They've been in receivership twice and are in the bottom two of Sujperleague - they have been languishing. If they'd been a horse they'd  be in Tesco's freezer section by now. That's not being selective it's what's happening now, today.

it is 9 years, is that what you mean by 'perpetual'? Suggest you cheek the meaning of the word. Bradford in the SL era, and before have been one of the most significant clubs in the game. They have the potential to be so again.


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but wasn't it ever thus with Sheffield? Sheffield's survival and achievement is down to the ability and determination of one man. The club is here to stay in a city that has chronically under recognised it. And is that it? If more people came to watch Sheffield Eagles would that mean the game wasn't going backwards outside SL?

Don't we all wish that London could get management as good as those running Sheffield Eagles, with a bit more cash of course. Then we'd all know whether Rugby League could be a commercial success in the capital. But if we are going to have expansion clubs, they need to be Super Clubs, not under achievers, otherwise the further marginalisation of long established famous names would be a retrograde step. Do you know of any candidates? 

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Don't we all wish that London could get management as good as those running Sheffield Eagles, with a bit more cash of course. Then we'd all know whether Rugby League could be a commercial success in the capital. But if we are going to have expansion clubs, they need to be Super Clubs, not under achievers, otherwise the further marginalisation of long established famous names would be a retrograde step. Do you know of any candidates? 

yes

 

any club in Super League or with aspirations to be in it must have the realistic potential to be a super club or be one, otherwise there's no point.

I can think of no candidates from clubs outside SL who would remotely enhance the competition or look like doing so.


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.

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso

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it is 9 years, is that what you mean by 'perpetual'? Suggest you cheek the meaning of the word. Bradford in the SL era, and before have been one of the most significant clubs in the game. They have the potential to be so again.

They have been rescued, the fans have contributed money, rescued again, and it's been going on now for about 5 years.  Teams shouldn't struggle for 5 years, they should be put our of their misery by relegation. Hopefully they'll come back stronger.  Clearly licencing wasn't doing Bradford any favours. If it had been they'd have been up there with the front runners again.  I'm old enough to remember the old one division league, and Bradford finishing near the bottom season after season.  What was the result of that?  They went out of business and had to be rescued and started again from scratch.


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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They have been rescued, the fans have contributed money, rescued again, and it's been going on now for about 5 years.  Teams shouldn't struggle for 5 years, they should be put our of their misery by relegation. Hopefully they'll come back stronger.  Clearly licencing wasn't doing Bradford any favours. If it had been they'd have been up there with the front runners again.  I'm old enough to remember the old one division league, and Bradford finishing near the bottom season after season.  What was the result of that?  They went out of business and had to be rescued and started again from scratch.

and how does your club stack up against the Bulls in both achievement and potential?

What would their contribution to SL be? Could they become a power in the game? Could they attract 20,000+ attendances? 

My memories go back that far as well, but they are less selective, something for which I am thankful


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and how does your club stack up against the Bulls in both achievement and potential?

What would their contribution to SL be? Could they become a power in the game? Could they attract 20,000+ attendances? 

My memories go back that far as well, but they are less selective, something for which I am thankful

who are my club?


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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who are my club?

you mean you don't know?

Things are worse than I thought


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you mean you don't know?

Things are worse than I thought

no I know who they are, do you?


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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no I know who they are, do you?

why? Does it matter? we are discussing the welfare of the sport as a whole aren't we?

Why on earth would I care which club you support?

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso

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