Future of RL in Cumbria

[mick wilson]

Indeed but 3-4 times as many start off in Superleague areas than championship areas. The number of Cumbrian lads making it in SL is relatively small. For me a Superleague club in the Cumbria area may make a big difference to the local junior scene.

Put that SL in Barrow & call it Furness RL Club and you've hit pay dirt

[gnidir]

Barrow is cumbria and although we are an hr away from Whitehaven/Workington for us to not be involved in this review is short sighted.

We have the same population as west cumbria and get the same attendance on big occasions.

The only way a succesful Cumbrian super league side would work is to share the home games between the three towns. If each club was guaranteed 4 home games they would turn into events and similar sell outs could be achieved.

The most important thing about a new franchise working is that the fans feel a connection to the club so Cumbria would do that.

Barrovians under the age of about 50 feel Cumbrian so why would you ignore that commercial avenue.

For the record as well the big World Cup games I would hazard a guess that between 500-1000 were south Cumbrians .

What this man said, 1 top tier team 'The Cumbrians' for the sake of a name, play across three venues a'la Wests Tigers, Barrow, Workington, Whitehaven continue in championships but concentrate on growing Cumbrian talent which stays in Cumbria, seems like a winner to me.

[Northern Sol]

What this man said, 1 top tier team 'The Cumbrians' for the sake of a name, play across three venues a'la Wests Tigers, Barrow, Workington, Whitehaven continue in championships but concentrate on growing Cumbrian talent which stays in Cumbria, seems like a winner to me.

What happens if Cumbria get relegated and end up playing in the same division as the three semi-pro sides?

 

No-one has ever given me a decent answer to this question.

 

A de facto rep side playing across three venues only really works if it is a top flight side. Hard to imagine that Cumbria are always going to be SL side.

[nadera78]

What happens if Cumbria get relegated and end up playing in the same division as the three semi-pro sides?

 

No-one has ever given me a decent answer to this question.

 

A de facto rep side playing across three venues only really works if it is a top flight side. Hard to imagine that Cumbria are always going to be SL side.

Maybe we should introduce a format that doesn't just rely on one good/bad year on the field. A way of evaluating a club in other areas like governance, player development, financial stability, strategic importance.

[Northern Sol]

Maybe we should introduce a format that doesn't just rely on one good/bad year on the field. A way of evaluating a club in other areas like governance, player development, financial stability, strategic importance.

Good idea but is it just possible that at some point Cumbria slump and no longer deserve a SL licence?

[dkw]

Good idea but is it just possible that at some point Cumbria slump and no longer deserve a SL licence?

Yep, we should definitely not try anything in case it doesnt work. Its almost certainly the way forward.

[RSN]

What happens if Cumbria get relegated and end up playing in the same division as the three semi-pro sides?

 

No-one has ever given me a decent answer to this question.

 

A de facto rep side playing across three venues only really works if it is a top flight side. Hard to imagine that Cumbria are always going to be SL side.

 

 

Thats going to be the problem IMO. In my opinion under licensing it could of potentially worked. 8 games between Whitehaven and Workington and 4 in Barrow. Play double headers with the Championship clubs and maybe play 1 game in Carlisle as a tour game.

 

We would need 3 years to assemble a majority Cumbrian side as all the other clubs hold the best players from Cumbria.

 

Strongest all Cumbrian side at the minute would be:

 

1. Gregg Mcnally

2. Elliot MIller

3. Scott Mcavoy

4. Liam Harrison

5. Ade Gardner

6. Callum Philips

7. Liam Campbell

8. Kyle Amor

9. Shaun Lunt

10. Lee Mossop

11. Brad Singleton

12. Brett Philips

13. Ben Harrison

 

14. Nathan Mossop/Graeme Mattinson

15. Oliver Wilkes

16. Greg Richards

17. Ewan Dowes

 

That isn't that bad a side and with a sprinkling of 4 or 5 quality players out of the county to help the backline and halves out you would probably be looking at a 5th - 9th place side which would probably be comfortable in SL and begin progressing. The problem is you aren't going to get that side together within a year. It would take years to put together. A Cumbrian side if it was put into SL 2015 would have to scramble a make shift side together (probably picking off the majority of the semi pro clubs) and more than likely get relegated. It just won't work under P & R.

 

If you gave Cumbria 5 years to work in which they would be exempt from relegation. A fairly significant investment. Try and get the majority of Cumbrians in SL to sign for Cumbria at the end of their contracts and given a lot of assistance by the RFL it would probably work as the Cumbrian youngsters which are between 15 - 19 and as I've been corrected a lot are at the Cumbrian academy will start to come through and hopefully start to build a sustainable SL club. But none of that is going to happen so it won't work.

 

Cumbria will be fine by itself. It has been for the last 15 years. All 3 clubs have been through crisis' worse than most other clubs and managed to get through them. A few international games and help keeping the youngsters getting to ameteur clubs would be the best help the RFL could give. Not putting an SL club.

[Northern Sol]

 

If you gave Cumbria 5 years to work in which they would be exempt from relegation. A fairly significant investment. Try and get the majority of Cumbrians in SL to sign for Cumbria at the end of their contracts and given a lot of assistance by the RFL it would probably work as the Cumbrian youngsters which are between 15 - 19 and as I've been corrected a lot are at the Cumbrian academy will start to come through and hopefully start to build a sustainable SL club. But none of that is going to happen so it won't work.

 

My problem is that even after those 5 years, how do you guarantee that Cumbria will never be relegated?

 

Cas have been down (even if they didn't finish bottom), so have Widnes and Salford and Huddersfield, once mighty Bradford look like they will go down, London will almost certainly go down this season.

 

Will Cumbria be strong enough to be "immortal" as we assume that Wigan, Leeds, Saints and Hull are immortal?

 

It's hard to see them attracting as many fans as those clubs. There just aren't enough Cumbrians and the local stadiums just aren't good enough.

[keighley]

Maybe we should introduce a format that doesn't just rely on one good/bad year on the field. A way of evaluating a club in other areas like governance, player development, financial stability, strategic importance.

 

We just did that. It was called licencing. It didn't work too well.

[keighley]

My problem is that even after those 5 years, how do you guarantee that Cumbria will never be relegated?

 

Cas have been down (even if they didn't finish bottom), so have Widnes and Salford and Huddersfield, once mighty Bradford look like they will go down, London will almost certainly go down this season.

 

Will Cumbria be strong enough to be "immortal" as we assume that Wigan, Leeds, Saints and Hull are immortal?

 

It's hard to see them attracting as many fans as those clubs. There just aren't enough Cumbrians and the local stadiums just aren't good enough.

 

Maybe a Cumbrian side could never be immortal; but I could see them being in the KR, Widnes, Wakefield, Salford level so they could give SL a good go of it.

[nadera78]

We just did that. It was called licencing. It didn't work too well.

Thanks for pointing that out to me.

[Northern Sol]

Maybe a Cumbrian side could never be immortal; but I could see them being in the KR, Widnes, Wakefield, Salford level so they could give SL a good go of it.

Indeed they could but the likelihood is that KR, Widnes, Wakey and Salford will all spend some time in the second flight over the next decade.

[keighley]

Indeed they could but the likelihood is that KR, Widnes, Wakey and Salford will all spend some time in the second flight over the next decade.

 

Not to mention Bradford, but that's one of the benefits of p and r. The gene pool of SL gets fresh infusions and does not remain an inbred recessive family. Leigh, Fev, Fax maybe even the Dons and Crusaders might get a shot at the top as well as Cumbria. I also think, as someone else has suggested that Barrow, with the right funding could be a stand alone SL club.

 

It would be  very good thing for SL if one of the immortals fell from Olympus for a while and a Salford, Castleford, Catalans or indeed Cumbria feasted at the top table for a while. The same old, same old dominating year after year is not a good thing in the long term.

[The Parksider]

Thats going to be the problem IMO. In my opinion under licensing it could of potentially worked. We would need 3 years to assemble a majority Cumbrian side as all the other clubs hold the best players from Cumbria.

 

The problem is you aren't going to get that side together within a year. It would take years to put together. A Cumbrian side if it was put into SL 2015 would have to scramble a make shift side together (probably picking off the majority of the semi pro clubs) and more than likely get relegated. It just won't work under P & R.

 

If you gave Cumbria 5 years to work in which they would be exempt from relegation. A fairly significant investment. Try and get the majority of Cumbrians in SL to sign for Cumbria at the end of their contracts and given a lot of assistance by the RFL it would probably work as the Cumbrian youngsters which are between 15 - 19 and as I've been corrected a lot are at the Cumbrian academy will start to come through and hopefully start to build a sustainable SL club.

 

Running a Cumbria SL club AND the championship clubs is not a good idea as you want everyone behind the SL club.  There was once an idea that there should be a Calder SL club and fev, cas and Wakey would remain. You have to let the past go. It would rot away anyway.

 

The evidence is that if you got a Superleague place under licensing and attracted 3-7,000 fans a game then far from making it to the top your only going to run into financial difficulties anyway as several clubs have done through the old licensing system which allowed small non-rich clubs to play alongside big rich clubs.

 

the idea all Cumbria talent would stay put has no evidence to back it. If a top class player comes through at a lower Superleague side, they inevitably look, and are inevitably sought out by the big rich clubs anyway.

 

A Cumbria club can only succeed if it is set up on a par with all the other clubs, or if it can get an advantage by having a rich benefactor behind it, but beware, London had Mr. Hughes for some years.

 

So It's a lovely thought but not workable under any system we have had so far, it can only work IMHO under a system where TV money levels the playing field across the board, or a very rich man levels it with his own money. If only Mr. Koukash had bought London and Mr. Davey Cumbria then we could have seen a widening of the professional player development systems.

 

However things left to chance are things that don't always go right.

[Northern Sol]

Not to mention Bradford, but that's one of the benefits of p and r. The gene pool of SL gets fresh infusions and does not remain an inbred recessive family. Leigh, Fev, Fax maybe even the Dons and Crusaders might get a shot at the top as well as Cumbria. I also think, as someone else has suggested that Barrow, with the right funding could be a stand alone SL club.

 

It would be  very good thing for SL if one of the immortals fell from Olympus for a while and a Salford, Castleford, Catalans or indeed Cumbria feasted at the top table for a while. The same old, same old dominating year after year is not a good thing in the long term.

The difference between p & r with standalone sides like Bradford, Fax etc and a "regional" merged side is striking. People will continue to support Bradford if they get relegated and no doubt because of this they will bounce back. Hard to see anyone supporting Cumbria if they are playing in the same league as Haven, Worky and Barrow because of that they are likely screwed if tehy ever get relegated (which they surely must a some point).

[keighley]

The difference between p & r with standalone sides like Bradford, Fax etc and a "regional" merged side is striking. People will continue to support Bradford if they get relegated and no doubt because of this they will bounce back. Hard to see anyone supporting Cumbria if they are playing in the same league as Haven, Worky and Barrow because of that they are likely screwed if tehy ever get relegated (which they surely must a some point).

 

That's a good and valid point but Catalans are the new regional model and maybe North Wales Crusaders rather than Wrexham Crusaders. I think Barrow could stand alone if there is a Cumbrian SL team in West Cumbria but I don't think Town or Haven could still function  with a SL club in the area. I am not a big lover of mergers but if Cumbria wants a SL team, this may have to happen. I remember when Cumberland contested the county championship successfully and were well supported even before the birth of Town and Haven. The pride of Cumbrians in their county as an entity could be marketed to garner support for a regional entity.

 

I think it's more viable than say the Midlands Titans SL club based on Leicester, Northampton, Birmingham etc. Cumbria is a more historic, cohesive  whole that could engender support. But I do take your point and it would not be easy to get Town and Haven fans to jettison their historic allegiances and fall in behind a new Cumbrian entity.

[The Parksider]

That's a good and valid point but Catalans are the new regional model and maybe North Wales Crusaders rather than Wrexham Crusaders.I don't think Town or Haven could still function  with a SL club in the area. I am not a big lover of mergers but if Cumbria wants a SL team, this may have to happen. I remember when Cumberland contested the county championship successfully and were well supported even before the birth of Town and Haven. The pride of Cumbrians in their county as an entity could be marketed to garner support for a regional entity.

 

Well here we go with the biggest turn around in the history of this board.

 

The guy who supports all the games little clubs - and I include several SL clubs in that - in terms of a fantasy future where they all get a turn to topple their SL neighbours - finally realises that to have a big successful side that can run as a true Superleague club in terms of finance, attendances, and player development needs to sit on a sizeable area and attract all the resources it can from that area unopposed. 

 

What next from you? Bradhudderfax? Calder? Humberside? Cheshire?

 

Where is the argument that nobody will support a merged entity? where is the "RL will dissapear from west cumbria without Town and haven - their fans will watch no other?"

 

It was only the other day you were harping on about how relegation was the making of Castleford and Hudderefield because you just wanted to take a (totally unfounded) opposite view to me. It was only the other day you were arguing (badly) small rises in CC attendances balanced out large drops in SL attendances, yet this 180 degree turn is quite enlightening. 

 

If Catalans are the "new regional model" and you support it for Cumbria and France then add Humberside, Calder, Bradhuddersfax, Manchester, London to St.helens, Wigan, Leeds, Cheshire and Toulouse, split all the SKY money 12 ways so they have £3.3M a season subsidy each, and get on with a proper superleague no longer dragged down by the past which for several years now you have wanted to recreate in your dreams, yet all of a sudden you can see the light.

 

Only us old men want the past, the rest of the country want top class RL. The world cup told us that even though you used to tell us it told us that the fans want CC rugby at Rochdale and erm..........Workington.

 

Halleluah Mr. K.....

[Northern Sol]

Well here we go with the biggest turn around in the history of this board.

 

 

Nope you've still got the top 5 major u-turns firmly nailed down Mr Crusaders-should-be-in-SL-because-they-will-spend-the-full-cap or should I say Mr There-will-be-a-second-London-SL-club-in-London-because-Lewis-and-Sky-want it. There must be at least a dozen things that you have confidently predicted (and trolled anyone who told you it was nonsense) that you have quietly forgotten about when they didn't happen.

[keighley]

Well here we go with the biggest turn around in the history of this board.

 

The guy who supports all the games little clubs - and I include several SL clubs in that - in terms of a fantasy future where they all get a turn to topple their SL neighbours - finally realises that to have a big successful side that can run as a true Superleague club in terms of finance, attendances, and player development needs to sit on a sizeable area and attract all the resources it can from that area unopposed. 

 

What next from you? Bradhudderfax? Calder? Humberside? Cheshire?

 

Where is the argument that nobody will support a merged entity? where is the "RL will dissapear from west cumbria without Town and haven - their fans will watch no other?"

 

It was only the other day you were harping on about how relegation was the making of Castleford and Hudderefield because you just wanted to take a (totally unfounded) opposite view to me. It was only the other day you were arguing (badly) small rises in CC attendances balanced out large drops in SL attendances, yet this 180 degree turn is quite enlightening. 

 

If Catalans are the "new regional model" and you support it for Cumbria and France then add Humberside, Calder, Bradhuddersfax, Manchester, London to St.helens, Wigan, Leeds, Cheshire and Toulouse, split all the SKY money 12 ways so they have £3.3M a season subsidy each, and get on with a proper superleague no longer dragged down by the past which for several years now you have wanted to recreate in your dreams, yet all of a sudden you can see the light.

 

Only us old men want the past, the rest of the country want top class RL. The world cup told us that even though you used to tell us it told us that the fans want CC rugby at Rochdale and erm..........Workington.

 

Halleluah Mr. K.....

 

If you quoted my last paragraph as well instead of just cherry picking the bits you liked, I said that it would be very difficult to prise cumbrian fans away from their historic allegiance to Town and Haven to support a new entity.

 

All the other areas you quoted are sufficiently well populated to sustain their present stand alone SL clubs. There is no need for a mergers there.

 

In West Cumbria the population of Workington and Whitehaven combined is about 60,000+ the surrounding villages. This is big enough for one SL club but not one SL club and two championship clubs. In this specific instance if Cumbria want to sustain a SL club then a merger would be best or alternatively, one of the two current clubs becomes by far the bigger and dominant entity and kick on to SL leaving the other to wither in the Championship.

 

I instance a specific unique area where I think a merger MIGHT be a good idea and you seize on that as my giving my carte blanche to the concept of mergers everywhere and I do not endorse any such thing.

 

Again if you refer to my post in full, I referenced Cumbria as an isolated RL area with a historic affinity to a regional entity, i.e Cumberland, that might be a catalyst for a regional team. I specifically referenced a regional team based on  the midlands for instance as being unsustainable as there is no cohesive e allegiance to such a concept as there might be in Cumbria. please don't impute meanings to my posts which aren't there.

 

As for the attendance debate. I see there were 1000 at London last night but more than double that at Leigh recently. It seems like there are two sides to the falling attendances debate when referenced to anti  p and r agendas.

.

[shaun mc]

The list of mergers also exluded Saints and Wigan

Surely a great examplr of combining 2 sides 8 miles apart to see if it works, no different to Bradford Fax Huddersfield

However, this would rock the cosy boat too much

The exact same Workington/Whitehaven arguements also apply to Saints/Wigan

Same distances, same predjudices, etc

[The Parksider]

The exact same Workington/Whitehaven arguements also apply to Saints/Wigan

 

The merger proposals were based on trying to get a Superleague of big enough clubs so they could:-

 

a. Have a truly competetive league top to bottom 

b. Increase fanbases for the clubs below such as Leeds, Saints and Wigan

c. In increasing the area each club sat on with no competition there was the ability to try to attract more sponsors, advertisors and junior players to such top clubs. 

 

So whilst there was a good principle to Cas/Wakey/Fev merging there was no need for Leeds, Saints and Wigan to merge.

 

And time has shown that such big clubs as Leeds, Wigan and Saints will take the trophies every year with a few interruptions, but not that many, whilst clubs who fall short on adequate rescouces will just struggle from crisis to crisis.

 

This for me is why P & R is really back to be able to remove clubs from SL who become too great an embarrassment. I'd agree 100% with people that shifting out Bradford, Wakey and London for Fev, Halifax and Leigh would in isolation be a good idea, until the latter clubs run into similar problems because they too are under-resourced.

 

Maybe the Whitehaven/Workington thing is coming ever closer as the day is looming when these two clubs end up back in the third tier in perpetuity before a couple of hundred fans a game, but if they merged then I't would not be to create a Superleague club. 

 

Maybe Bradford,Fax and Fartown or Hull/HKR or Cas/Fev/Wakey could create a club to match Leeds/Saints/Wigan and maybe we could see some competition and growth in Superleague, but as long as those who run the clubs don't have the ambition and those who still watch the clubs (even though they are often the minority) just want to stick with the past, then we will have to stay with perennial wishful thinking......

[keighley]

The list of mergers also exluded Saints and Wigan

Surely a great examplr of combining 2 sides 8 miles apart to see if it works, no different to Bradford Fax Huddersfield

However, this would rock the cosy boat too much

The exact same Workington/Whitehaven arguements also apply to Saints/Wigan

Same distances, same predjudices, etc

 

The fact which tilts the balance against St Helens/Wigan and m ost of the others is the population of these areas being big enough to sustain both teams whereas in Cumbria it is too small.

[keighley]

The merger proposals were based on trying to get a Superleague of big enough clubs so they could:-

 

a. Have a truly competetive league top to bottom 

b. Increase fanbases for the clubs below such as Leeds, Saints and Wigan

c. In increasing the area each club sat on with no competition there was the ability to try to attract more sponsors, advertisors and junior players to such top clubs. 

 

So whilst there was a good principle to Cas/Wakey/Fev merging there was no need for Leeds, Saints and Wigan to merge.

 

And time has shown that such big clubs as Leeds, Wigan and Saints will take the trophies every year with a few interruptions, but not that many, whilst clubs who fall short on adequate rescouces will just struggle from crisis to crisis.

 

This for me is why P & R is really back to be able to remove clubs from SL who become too great an embarrassment. I'd agree 100% with people that shifting out Bradford, Wakey and London for Fev, Halifax and Leigh would in isolation be a good idea, until the latter clubs run into similar problems because they too are under-resourced.

 

Maybe the Whitehaven/Workington thing is coming ever closer as the day is looming when these two clubs end up back in the third tier in perpetuity before a couple of hundred fans a game, but if they merged then I't would not be to create a Superleague club. 

 

Maybe Bradford,Fax and Fartown or Hull/HKR or Cas/Fev/Wakey could create a club to match Leeds/Saints/Wigan and maybe we could see some competition and growth in Superleague, but as long as those who run the clubs don't have the ambition and those who still watch the clubs (even though they are often the minority) just want to stick with the past, then we will have to stay with perennial wishful thinking......

 

Castleford and Fev are both in the top four and both have increasing attendance figures. Let's merge them immediately. KR are higher than FC. Time to dump KR. The Bulls just pulled in 10,000 for a relegation fixture. Time to dump them. Oh please.!

[shun]

Wish you two would get a room!

[The Parksider]

Wish you two would get a room!

 

You'd best PM him.

 

I have him on ignore now as per the board rules so I am doing the very best I can to avoid threads being ruined by him automatically countering anything and everything I say (and me reacting), which he has declared is his mission.

 

Apologies but that's the best I can do.