Record ST sales at Leigh

[The Parksider]

Fair comment Parky, perhaps I was a little rash with the "new kid" phrase, there was no malice whatsoever intended on the clubs you name and indeed all the others who have tried and failed, and yes we do react in protection of our own and things do get said, but the resurgence of Leigh for whatever their reason ranckles with some and my point being, yes we have been poorly but we are feeling and getting on much better and being of the same dynasty for a very long time why all the anomosity.

 

Fair play for you not trying to excuse yourself. I welcome professional clubs with businesses big enough into SL as they are a great assett to the game, and hold our end up against other sports.

 

Small clubs who become big only because they have a rich owner are disappointing but welcome anyway because they can compete to a point with the big boys. Whether it's a cashed up Leigh, Newcastle, Salford or London all fine to me.

 

You still speak of animosity yet you are getting posts from people who the finger is pointed at that deny such animosity which your accepting. Can you be specific exactly what's been said about Leigh you believe is unfair? We may be able to help then!!

[The Parksider]

Averages get skewed everytime you change the make up of the divisions, if people remember the graphs I have posted in the past they will have noticed that the biggest damage to the average was the introduction of 3 divisions, every time we go from 2 to 3 the average takes a hit.

 

Yes the aggregate goes up if you play more games, the income also goes up, as long as income isn't below expenditure the health of the game goes up. There is obviously a saturation point.

 

Thanks, yes I'm interested in all this.

 

I like the relative simplicity of averages. I know the pitfalls, but the sums are simple enough to analyse.

 

An example was where when Hull who had won the cup and got to Old Trafford the following season saw their average crowd go from 11,211 to 14,553 which everyone in Hull wanted to claim was the "symbiotic" effect of HKR.

 

It was easy to take the HKR crowds off that figure and show Hull had in a large part grown their audience through their success on the field. That of course didn't go down well.

 

But the Hull average crowds have gone down since!!

[GaryO]

Fair play for you not trying to excuse yourself. I welcome professional clubs with businesses big enough into SL as they are a great assett to the game, and hold our end up against other sports.

 

Small clubs who become big only because they have a rich owner are disappointing but welcome anyway because they can compete to a point with the big boys. Whether it's a cashed up Leigh, Newcastle, Salford or London all fine to me.

 

You still speak of animosity yet you are getting posts from people who the finger is pointed at that deny such animosity which your accepting. Can you be specific exactly what's been said about Leigh you believe is unfair? We may be able to help then!!

Parky there has been many comments made of which I am sure you will be well aware that mesh with Leigh's hopes and aspirations, specific ones that state, be happy with your lot you are not worthy of SL you are a small town team, the FFMM thread was ridiculed by some, attendance's were bobbins last time in SL they won't improve again, and a host of other accusations that added together begins to gnaw and grate.

On reflection I don't know why I am biting at the bait penned by some on here, I am more than happy with our lot, I am looking forward to the coming season and especially the mid eight play-offs should we be fortunate enough to make them, then we can adjudge this season with facts on performance and attendance's not speculation.

[deluded pom?]

The central funding - TV and sponsorship revenue - is entirely generated by SL. Why should those clubs give more money to Championship clubs who don't do anything to generate it.

I'm surprised at you nad. You're usually all for expansion which IMO your view totally goes against. What if the Australians took a similar view, after all they have a billion dollar TV deal. Why do they need to help anyone else but themselves?

[keighley]

Averages get skewed everytime you change the make up of the divisions, if people remember the graphs I have posted in the past they will have noticed that the biggest damage to the average was the introduction of 3 divisions, every time we go from 2 to 3 the average takes a hit.

 

Yes the aggregate goes up if you play more games, the income also goes up, as long as income isn't below expenditure the health of the game goes up. There is obviously a saturation point.

 

I think I get you. When we added new clubs to CC1 the average went down as some of them drew very poorly but, of course, we played more games and the meagre crowds attracted to the games at Oxford, Hemel et al, increased the aggregate attendances. Simply put, there were more people watching RL than before.

[scotchy]

As I stated in post #51 (albeit it was directed at Padge but for some reason he either refuses to answer or cannot come up with anything viable to say) supporters of three of the "big four" clubs in SL would welcome Leigh, ground to ground the furthest is 10 miles away, so it could be said we are next door to all three.

Ange this is not directed to alone but what the hell is the matter with you peoplepeople who want to keep knocking Leigh, we are the same family, Leigh are not some upstart new kid on the block, you should be pleased that one of your own is doing well, not clipping us round the ear like some mischievous child who should know their place.

What transpires only the future will tell, as I stated a couple of months ago I am on this roller coaster with Leigh and have been for over 50 years and I am certainly enjoying the ride, if we fail the present detractors will be able to wallow in their self satisfaction of I told you so, but I can assure you we will be giving it 100%, if we fail I will still be there, limited potential or not.

Leigh aren't some upstart new kids on the block, they are a club which is over 100 years old. So they are treated as a 100+ year old club, and they are judged as a 100+year old club. They aren't a new club, they aren't an expansion club spreading the game to a new area, they aren't building those links and foundations, they have already doe it over the past 100+years.

 

And lets be honest, in the context of a club which has existed for 100+ years, in the context of a club in the heartlands of our game and all the advantages that confers, they aren't doing well. They aren't even aiming to do well. Even the most biased Leigh fan is not predicting or even really hoping that they do 'well'. In the context of clubs who have existed for 100+ years in the heartlands of our game 2-3k averages are not doing well, 5-6k averages are not doing well, 7-8k averages are not doing well. If Leigh aren't some upstart new kid on the block then they are judged to the standard the other clubs have set, and that is Leeds, or Wigan or Saints, or Wire.

 

Nobody on these boards, rarely even the fans of those clubs, defend Wakefield or Castleford for the very valid criticism of those clubs, yet for some reason we are supposed to celebrate Leigh aiming for (not even achieving yet) those levels.

 

I don't want to wallow in the self-satisfaction of I told you so, I want the game to grow, I want the best players to not only stay in SL but to come to SL, I want to watch RL in good surroundings and big crowds

[scotchy]

I'm surprised at you nad. You're usually all for expansion which IMO your view totally goes against. What if the Australians took a similar view, after all they have a billion dollar TV deal. Why do they need to help anyone else but themselves?

There is a pretty big difference in SL using SL money to expand the game and as such grow the business of SL, and SL giving SL money to clubs outside SL.

[scotchy]

Well if Leigh get to SL, stay around, average 5,000 plus and Wigan do their usual thing, it will increase the popularity of RL in the Wigan area and give Sky a new and different slant on derbies, a welcome change from the Hull, Wigan/Saints games they have been televising ad nauseam for years due to lack of any alternative.

 

Any time one of our member clubs does well it reflects positively on the hopes and ambitions of the sport.

5k is not doing well, 5k sent Wakefield bust, 6/7k was a crisis at Bradford, 5k led to calls to see London kicked out.

 

Sky don't want a new and different slant on derbies, they want big, visible games, they want huge events. Whilst the Wigan game might be big to a few people in Leigh, it isn't big throughout the rest of the country, and unfortunately for you, the entire rest of the country has far more people that Sky are trying to reach than Leigh does.

[deluded pom?]

There is a pretty big difference in SL using SL money to expand the game and as such grow the business of SL, and SL giving SL money to clubs outside SL.

How do SL expand the game without giving money to clubs outside SL? Who do the SL clubs DR with? What happens when the clubs outside of SL wither and die and all we have left are a dozen clubs or less? If SL clubs want all of the money for themselves then I hope they remember the expression 'there but for the grace of God go I'.

[scotchy]

Thanks, yes I'm interested in all this.

 

I like the relative simplicity of averages. I know the pitfalls, but the sums are simple enough to analyse.

 

An example was where when Hull who had won the cup and got to Old Trafford the following season saw their average crowd go from 11,211 to 14,553 which everyone in Hull wanted to claim was the "symbiotic" effect of HKR.

 

It was easy to take the HKR crowds off that figure and show Hull had in a large part grown their audience through their success on the field. That of course didn't go down well.

 

But the Hull average crowds have gone down since!!

averages are far more useful when comparing like for like, comparing 2015 to 2016 using averages will be far more useful than 2014 to 2015, because one is like for like, one isn't.

[scotchy]

How do SL expand the game without giving money to clubs outside SL? Who do the SL clubs DR with? What happens when the clubs outside of SL wither and die and all we have left are a dozen clubs or less? If SL clubs want all of the money for themselves then I hope they remember the expression 'there but for the grace of God go I'.

Perhaps we should concentrate on making the lower leagues sustainable in themselves rather than simply being a parasite on SL. Now I appreciate they emotiveness of that word, but that is what you are describing, a parasitic lower leagues, one that only lives by sucking the blood from SL and giving nothing back.

 

I have no problem with SL clubs paying lower league clubs for things that come back, an investment if you will. I would be perfectly happy to see the best young players all come through the lower leagues, I think that 17/18/19 year old kids who aren't quite ready for SL should be playing in the lower leagues, its the perfect place for them. and I would be perfectly happy, and think it would be ideal, to see SL clubs paying for better coaching and facilities for these kids to use whilst on DR or something similar.

 

However that's not what you or others want. What you seem to want is a crazy situation where we are taking money from a Wakefield for instance, a club struggling in the lower reaches of SL, without much success and struggling to pay its bills, struggling to pay for proper youth development, struggling to bring those players through, struggling to invest in their facilities and giving it to a Leigh who can then possibly replace Wakefield and we can a different name, but still a club which is struggling in the lower reaches of SL and cannot afford to take that step up. It makes 0 sense and in the long run doesn't benefit anyone, not even the clubs at the top of the championship getting it because best case scenario they become the struggling SL side paying a championship side to try and take their place.

[keighley]

Leigh aren't some upstart new kids on the block, they are a club which is over 100 years old. So they are treated as a 100+ year old club, and they are judged as a 100+year old club. They aren't a new club, they aren't an expansion club spreading the game to a new area, they aren't building those links and foundations, they have already doe it over the past 100+years.

 

And lets be honest, in the context of a club which has existed for 100+ years, in the context of a club in the heartlands of our game and all the advantages that confers, they aren't doing well. They aren't even aiming to do well. Even the most biased Leigh fan is not predicting or even really hoping that they do 'well'. In the context of clubs who have existed for 100+ years in the heartlands of our game 2-3k averages are not doing well, 5-6k averages are not doing well, 7-8k averages are not doing well. If Leigh aren't some upstart new kid on the block then they are judged to the standard the other clubs have set, and that is Leeds, or Wigan or Saints, or Wire.

 

Nobody on these boards, rarely even the fans of those clubs, defend Wakefield or Castleford for the very valid criticism of those clubs, yet for some reason we are supposed to celebrate Leigh aiming for (not even achieving yet) those levels.

 

I don't want to wallow in the self-satisfaction of I told you so, I want the game to grow, I want the best players to not only stay in SL but to come to SL, I want to watch RL in good surroundings and big crowds

 

If teams averaging 7 to 8,000 are not doing well then that excludes most of SL. Don't get too smug. I remember Leeds on 6,000 and Wigan on 5,000 and Wire as well. Delusions of superiority breed contempt but pride comes before a fall. Ask Bradford.

 

The signs are that Leeds decade of superiority with the golden generation are slowly coming to an end and we will see what happens then. Ask Hull.

 

As for watching RL in good surroundings, I think LSV is a very good ground, definitely superior to Headingley on any measure except capacity.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Thanks, yes I'm interested in all this.

I like the relative simplicity of averages. I know the pitfalls, but the sums are simple enough to analyse.

An example was where when Hull who had won the cup and got to Old Trafford the following season saw their average crowd go from 11,211 to 14,553 which everyone in Hull wanted to claim was the "symbiotic" effect of HKR.

It was easy to take the HKR crowds off that figure and show Hull had in a large part grown their audience through their success on the field. That of course didn't go down well.

But the Hull average crowds have gone down since!!

Despite being told numerous times the huge flaws in your "easy" theory, you still continue to pedal it.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

If teams averaging 7 to 8,000 are not doing well then that excludes most of SL. Don't get too smug. I remember Leeds on 6,000 and Wigan on 5,000 and Wire as well. Delusions of superiority breed contempt but pride comes before a fall. Ask Bradford.

 

The signs are that Leeds decade of superiority with the golden generation are slowly coming to an end and we will see what happens then. Ask Hull.

 

As for watching RL in good surroundings, I think LSV is a very good ground, definitely superior to Headingley on any measure except capacity.

didn't wigan and leeds get those attendances in the good old days of auto p and r? 

if a club is to join the competition they have to enhance it in a number of different ways.

such as

 

competitiveness on the field

broadening the sport's profile

bringing a bigger audience

what are the chances of leigh or for that matter Featherstone of doing any of these things?

[scotchy]

If teams averaging 7 to 8,000 are not doing well then that excludes most of SL. Don't get too smug. I remember Leeds on 6,000 and Wigan on 5,000 and Wire as well. Delusions of superiority breed contempt but pride comes before a fall. Ask Bradford.

 

The signs are that Leeds decade of superiority with the golden generation are slowly coming to an end and we will see what happens then. Ask Hull.

 

As for watching RL in good surroundings, I think LSV is a very good ground, definitely superior to Headingley on any measure except capacity.

Most of SL isn't doing well, what part of the last few decades convinced you otherwise?

 

If you want to call it smug, call it smug, but in over a century Leeds have never been relegated, neither have Warrington. You may say pride comes before a fall, but that fall has never happened. Think about that whilst you persist in pretending everything will change and the league will be upside down. Leeds and Warrington have been playing in the top league of RL for as long as Australia has been a country.

[GaryO]

Just a thought on all this money that the SL clubs generate, I think that we are all agreed that the majority is by way of Sky, seeing that Scotchy deems that it should be kept solely for SL clubs I would go along with that if only we could do it on proportional representation, i.e. let them keep the amount subscribers in their town/city invest and rest goes to the development of the game in all areas from schools to amateur to everything below SL. I should think that it would be a very easy excersize for Sky to supply these figures to the RL, but obviously an amount would have to be deducted if the town/city had a League Football club i.e. Leeds, Hull, Wigan.

[scotchy]

Just a thought on all this money that the SL clubs generate, I think that we are all agreed that the majority is by way of Sky, seeing that Scotchy deems that it should be kept solely for SL clubs I would go along with that if only we could do it on proportional representation, i.e. let them keep the amount subscribers in their town/city invest and rest goes to the development of the game in all areas from schools to amateur to everything below SL. I should think that it would be a very easy excersize for Sky to supply these figures to the RL, but obviously an amount would have to be deducted if the town/city had a League Football club i.e. Leeds, Hull, Wigan.

That is amongst the craziest suggestions I have ever heard, and this is a thread Keighley is posting on.

 

Besides, its just wrong in principle, Sky buy SL, they don't buy SL in Leeds, or Wigan, they buy SL, why should the money people in Milton Keynes pay to watch Leeds v Wigan go to Leigh? That just doesn't make sense.

 

Also, the majority of the money the big clubs generate is not sky money. In fact one of the less looked at criteria of franchising was that a club turned over more than £4m, this would ensure that the majority of money they made was not Sky money. Sky money makes up less than 5th of Leeds turnover, and around 30% at the other big clubs.

 

[The Parksider]

Parky there has been many comments made of which I am sure you will be well aware that mesh with Leigh's hopes and aspirations, specific ones that state, you are a small town team, the FFMM thread was ridiculed by some, attendance's were bobbins last time in SL they won't improve again...........................

 

Gary,

 

I read all that but it was in reply to posts claiming Leigh were going to be big, that Leigh had a big junior amateur base, that FFMM was a major signing and would rip the division up and that Leigh would get massive increases in gates.

 

The replies to that included that Leigh are small it's chairmans wallet is big, Wigan will still over shadow 

Leigh, Leigh does not have a big JARL base as Wigan have all the talent, and that if FFMM was so great why was no SL club interested in an alleged lazy player at the end of his career, and as for gates Leigh will need wins to get the crowds up and neither Salford nor Widnes got crowds up much after turning things round.

 

Now I am sure the truth as always may be in the middle but the jeers from non-Leigh fans were only in reaction to the over the top cheers of the Leigh mob.

 

Unlike the terraces where the fans who aren't interested may say "good luck Leigh" on here if you make statements they are up for analysis not for blind agreement.

[deluded pom?]

 Leeds and Warrington have been playing in the top league of RL for as long as Australia has been a country.

   

[The Parksider]

How do SL expand the game without giving money to clubs outside SL? Who do the SL clubs DR with? What happens when the clubs outside of SL wither and die and all we have left are a dozen clubs or less? If SL clubs want all of the money for themselves then I hope they remember the expression 'there but for the grace of God go I'.

 

Well if there's a scramble for the 12 places then P & R opens up the chance for all to grab one before it's too late and they "wither and die".

 

Not sure why anyone should "wither and die" when there's still a desire and audience for Championship RL even if it's at supporters trust run clubs on a few hundred crowds and part time wages.

 

The SL clubs of course want the money for themselves because they need it and it's paid to them in return for providing SKY with Superleague. Over the course of the last contract it wasn't enough by tens of £Millions and every penny's needed to prevent SL clubs going bust or reducing the quality of the league.

 

I'm at a loss to understand why you cannot see that taking money off successful clubs is a good thing, or what good this money will do for small clubs. They'll swallow every penny on wages, unless you believe the money is so vast it can pay for everyone to be an SL club.

 

Clearly the financial need to now have two less SL clubs demonstrates the impossibility of this.

 

If we had 12 clubs left that would still be enough to cover M62 land and still have clubs in France and London so again not sure you've thought it through.  

[The Parksider]

averages are far more useful when comparing like for like, comparing 2015 to 2016 using averages will be far more useful than 2014 to 2015, because one is like for like, one isn't.

 

No I won't do that but KPMG & RFL will if it suits.

 

I did like for like in terms of individual match attendances last year for the "jeopardy" games which were all down, and oddly all those drops were excused away by people who didn't like the figures, same for Hulls match for match increases after the club hit Old Trafford, and match for match decreases as the club slid down the league. All excused away, by those who didn't like the facts as you can see.

[thundergaz]

Well if there's a scramble for the 12 places then P & R opens up the chance for all to grab one before it's too late and they "wither and die".

Not sure why anyone should "wither and die" when there's still a desire and audience for Championship RL even if it's at supporters trust run clubs on a few hundred crowds and part time wages.

The SL clubs of course want the money for themselves because they need it and it's paid to them in return for providing SKY with Superleague. Over the course of the last contract it wasn't enough by tens of £Millions and every penny's needed to prevent SL clubs going bust or reducing the quality of the league.

I'm at a loss to understand why you cannot see that taking money off successful clubs is a good thing, or what good this money will do for small clubs. They'll swallow every penny on wages, unless you believe the money is so vast it can pay for everyone to be an SL club.

Clearly the financial need to now have two less SL clubs demonstrates the impossibility of this.

If we had 12 clubs left that would still be enough to cover M62 land and still have clubs in France and London so again not sure you've thought it through.

I don't get this that SL clubs should have all the money because they give a competion to sky etc etc. all the other clubs could give a competion to sky if they had been aloud into SL couldn't they? Going back to part time rugby may solve all your problems parky? Because by the sound of your post SL clubs can't afford to run without all the sky money. SL as killed our sport outside of that league all the way down to amateur level. Now the RFL are realising this and now spreading the money about which should of been done a very long time ago IMO.

[scotchy]

I don't get this that SL clubs should have all the money because they give a competion to sky etc etc. all the other clubs could give a competion to sky if they had been aloud into SL couldn't they? Going back to part time rugby may solve all your problems parky? Because by the sound of your post SL clubs can't afford to run without all the sky money. SL as killed our sport outside of that league all the way down to amateur level. Now the RFL are realising this and now spreading the money about which should of been done a very long time ago IMO.

SL doesn't give any thing to Sky, they sell broadcast rights to SL to Sky. That is something owned by SLE (in turn this is owned by the clubs in SL and 1 share is owned by the RFL)

 

The clubs outside SL are free (through the RFL) to sell the rights to their competition to whoever wished to buy them. They don't need to be in SL to do so

[sweaty craiq]

That is amongst the craziest suggestions I have ever heard, and this is a thread Keighley is posting on.

 

Besides, its just wrong in principle, Sky buy SL, they don't buy SL in Leeds, or Wigan, they buy SL, why should the money people in Milton Keynes pay to watch Leeds v Wigan go to Leigh? That just doesn't make sense.

 

Also, the majority of the money the big clubs generate is not sky money. In fact one of the less looked at criteria of franchising was that a club turned over more than £4m, this would ensure that the majority of money they made was not Sky money. Sky money makes up less than 5th of Leeds turnover, and around 30% at the other big clubs.

 

 

Scotchy for all the sense you can find amongst your rants you cleary are clueless on finance. Sky provide the majority of disposable income for all SL clubs because they contribute £1.8m of cash with no costs associated, ie you buy a beer at Headingley and the retained cash is a small percentage of the sale price, same with merchandise and hospitality. Sponsorship is retained cash and this is where the Big clubs should be attracting the cash but outside Leeds who gets the huge sponsorship deals? RU kill us here

 

If you put a precondition on Leigh entering SL that Turnover must be over £4m it would be very easy to do, in one door and out the next with no retained cash

[scotchy]

Scotchy for all the sense you can find amongst your rants you cleary are clueless on finance. Sky provide the majority of disposable income for all SL clubs because they contribute £1.8m of cash with no costs associated, ie you buy a beer at Headingley and the retained cash is a small percentage of the sale price, same with merchandise and hospitality. Sponsorship is retained cash and this is where the Big clubs should be attracting the cash but outside Leeds who gets the huge sponsorship deals? RU kill us here

 

If you put a precondition on Leigh entering SL that Turnover must be over £4m it would be very easy to do, in one door and out the next with no retained cash

Why don't clubs have to pay players or for a ground to play at if a match is televised?