crowdwatch 22

[scotchy]

Is that across the entire league (ie all 14 teams in 2012 vs 12 in 2015) and all 27 games vs 23?

Yes, we have had promotions in other seasons, but none have had as significant an effect as the Bradford cheap season ticket deal which didn't exactly help them money wise. Didn't we see an entirely free game in 2012 anyway?

Was 2012 a record breaking year for overall aggregate or average at each club?

We're comparing a lot of apples and oranges here.

That's the RFL's expected figure for Super league clubs across all the games.

 

2012 was a record overall aggregate just under 1.9m

 

there were 186 games in 2012, and 180 in 2015.

 

Which entirely free game did we see in 2012?

 

and Bradford's cheap season tickets didn't see a huge rise, their average was less than in 2011.

[scotchy]

Fair play. But then by the same token it need not be spin that it arrests the slide. Maybe it's a happy coincidence

That it arrested a slide that didn't happen until we started putting it in place? Doesn't seem like that happy of a coincidence.

[scotchy]

Just to add some information.

 

 

 

Catalan.......+298 (+4%).........8067 (2014), 8365 (2015)  9385 (2012) -980

 

Hull Kr..........+64 (+1%).........7961 (2014), 8025 (2015)   7786 (2012)+249

 

Warrington...-141 (-1%).........9994 (2014), 9853 (2015)   11452 (2012)-1599

 

Wigan...........-302 (-2%).......14283 (2014), 13981 (2015) 16043 (2012)-2062

 

Wakefield.....-414 (-9%).........4403 (2014), 3989 (2015)    8172 (2012)-4183

 

Salford........-825 (-17%).........4992 (2014), 4167 (2015)    5503 (2012)-1336

 

 

 

 

[The Parksider]

2012 was a good year

 

Wigan.v.Wire 21,267

Wigan.v.Sants 21,522

Wigan.v.Bradford 19,628

 

I don't think the change to the structure of the game "arrested the slide" because Wigan are a club unaffected by such as P & R and jeopardy, the phenomenon seems to be the big games hit some big peaks

 

Saints 2012 average 14,113 (having half that playing at Widnes the year before) this was the new ground effect. Again Saints are well away from middle eights, jeopardy and relegation. If anything their lack of a trophy for a couple of years may be a factor, as well as the new fans who came to the new ground not being "stayers".

 

Warrington fell from over 11,000 to under 10,000 and again they were a club that started to win trophies, but that has fallen away as they entered their current transition phase.

 

The collapse of Bradford and Wakefield financially halved their crowds.

 

It's tremendous wishful thinking to think the league structure has anything at all to do with 2012 - 2014 attendance drops.

 

When you look at the figures this year and last it's easy to see that P & R, Jeopardy, Middle eight, and all that jazz hasn't made a jot of difference and the RFL/KPMG were being disingenuous.

 

Then out comes Blake Solly to pretend crowds were well up when they are not, he tried to fool us with the averages that went up because Bradford went down.

 

People can hang onto the idea the changes made structurally were to assist attendances across the game - that's laughable, in the first instance the changes facilitated dropping SL to 12 clubs, in the second instance the changes facilitated releasing the lower SL clubs from financial pressure and in the third instance the Elite 8 enabled the top clubs to grow both their failing attendances through third fixtures against each other, and to strengthen their teams through Elite Academies and an Elite Reserves league.

 

These are the things ACTUALLY happening as a result of the structural changes...... 

[Lobbygobbler]

Are you also including all crowds from the championships?

[Krytensmate]

2012 was a good year

 

Wigan.v.Wire 21,267

Wigan.v.Sants 21,522

Wigan.v.Bradford 19,628

 

I don't think the change to the structure of the game "arrested the slide" because Wigan are a club unaffected by such as P & R and jeopardy, the phenomenon seems to be the big games hit some big peaks

 

Saints 2012 average 14,113 (having half that playing at Widnes the year before) this was the new ground effect. Again Saints are well away from middle eights, jeopardy and relegation. If anything their lack of a trophy for a couple of years may be a factor, as well as the new fans who came to the new ground not being "stayers".

 

Warrington fell from over 11,000 to under 10,000 and again they were a club that started to win trophies, but that has fallen away as they entered their current transition phase.

 

The collapse of Bradford and Wakefield financially halved their crowds.

 

It's tremendous wishful thinking to think the league structure has anything at all to do with 2012 - 2014 attendance drops.

 

When you look at the figures this year and last it's easy to see that P & R, Jeopardy, Middle eight, and all that jazz hasn't made a jot of difference and the RFL/KPMG were being disingenuous.

 

Then out comes Blake Solly to pretend crowds were well up when they are not, he tried to fool us with the averages that went up because Bradford went down.

 

People can hang onto the idea the changes made structurally were to assist attendances across the game - that's laughable, in the first instance the changes facilitated dropping SL to 12 clubs, in the second instance the changes facilitated releasing the lower SL clubs from financial pressure and in the third instance the Elite 8 enabled the top clubs to grow both their failing attendances through third fixtures against each other, and to strengthen their teams through Elite Academies and an Elite Reserves league.

 

These are the things ACTUALLY happening as a result of the structural changes......

A fair and reasonable assessment of how things are

[zorquif]

That it arrested a slide that didn't happen until we started putting it in place? Doesn't seem like that happy of a coincidence.

 

When, in your opinion, did we start putting it in place. A month and year would work. 

[zorquif]

2012 was a good year

 

Wigan.v.Wire 21,267

Wigan.v.Sants 21,522

Wigan.v.Bradford 19,628

 

I don't think the change to the structure of the game "arrested the slide" because Wigan are a club unaffected by such as P & R and jeopardy, the phenomenon seems to be the big games hit some big peaks

 

Saints 2012 average 14,113 (having half that playing at Widnes the year before) this was the new ground effect. Again Saints are well away from middle eights, jeopardy and relegation. If anything their lack of a trophy for a couple of years may be a factor, as well as the new fans who came to the new ground not being "stayers".

 

Warrington fell from over 11,000 to under 10,000 and again they were a club that started to win trophies, but that has fallen away as they entered their current transition phase.

 

The collapse of Bradford and Wakefield financially halved their crowds.

 

It's tremendous wishful thinking to think the league structure has anything at all to do with 2012 - 2014 attendance drops.

 

When you look at the figures this year and last it's easy to see that P & R, Jeopardy, Middle eight, and all that jazz hasn't made a jot of difference and the RFL/KPMG were being disingenuous.

 

Then out comes Blake Solly to pretend crowds were well up when they are not, he tried to fool us with the averages that went up because Bradford went down.

 

People can hang onto the idea the changes made structurally were to assist attendances across the game - that's laughable, in the first instance the changes facilitated dropping SL to 12 clubs, in the second instance the changes facilitated releasing the lower SL clubs from financial pressure and in the third instance the Elite 8 enabled the top clubs to grow both their failing attendances through third fixtures against each other, and to strengthen their teams through Elite Academies and an Elite Reserves league.

 

These are the things ACTUALLY happening as a result of the structural changes...... 

 

Here is a worrying thought then. If the league structure doesn't effect crowds, and marketing has minimal effect on crowds... why have the crowds dropped and what can we do about that?

[Amber Avenger]

Just to clear things up - 2011 was the year of the infamous Bradford season ticket deal - they did a similar one in 2012 that wasn't as popular, but still took the crowds over 10k in the main.

[scotchy]

2012 was a good year

Wigan.v.Wire 21,267

Wigan.v.Sants 21,522

Wigan.v.Bradford 19,628

I don't think the change to the structure of the game "arrested the slide" because Wigan are a club unaffected by such as P & R and jeopardy, the phenomenon seems to be the big games hit some big peaks

Saints 2012 average 14,113 (having half that playing at Widnes the year before) this was the new ground effect. Again Saints are well away from middle eights, jeopardy and relegation. If anything their lack of a trophy for a couple of years may be a factor, as well as the new fans who came to the new ground not being "stayers".

Warrington fell from over 11,000 to under 10,000 and again they were a club that started to win trophies, but that has fallen away as they entered their current transition phase.

The collapse of Bradford and Wakefield financially halved their crowds.

It's tremendous wishful thinking to think the league structure has anything at all to do with 2012 - 2014 attendance drops.

When you look at the figures this year and last it's easy to see that P & R, Jeopardy, Middle eight, and all that jazz hasn't made a jot of difference and the RFL/KPMG were being disingenuous.

Then out comes Blake Solly to pretend crowds were well up when they are not, he tried to fool us with the averages that went up because Bradford went down.

People can hang onto the idea the changes made structurally were to assist attendances across the game - that's laughable, in the first instance the changes facilitated dropping SL to 12 clubs, in the second instance the changes facilitated releasing the lower SL clubs from financial pressure and in the third instance the Elite 8 enabled the top clubs to grow both their failing attendances through third fixtures against each other, and to strengthen their teams through Elite Academies and an Elite Reserves league.

These are the things ACTUALLY happening as a result of the structural changes......

saints won SL last year

[The Parksider]

saints won SL last year

 

Of course they did, but the move to the new stadium at the start of the 2012 season was IIRC heralded as the start of a new big era for the Saints.

 

IMHO it's fair to surmise crowds responded to the better facilities and the idea on the pitch they would start winning again, and of course at the end of the 2014 season they did lift the SL title again.

 

It seems, but I'm open to any analysis ESPECIALLY from our Saints colleagues on here that a big number of the new fans didn't come back as regulars for 2013 and 2014?

 

Do you feel this is plausible?

[zorquif]

Of course they did, but the move to the new stadium at the start of the 2012 season was IIRC heralded as the start of a new big era for the Saints.

 

IMHO it's fair to surmise crowds responded to the better facilities and the idea on the pitch they would start winning again, and of course at the end of the 2014 season they did lift the SL title again.

 

It seems, but I'm open to any analysis ESPECIALLY from our Saints colleagues on here that a big number of the new fans didn't come back as regulars for 2013 and 2014?

 

Do you feel this is plausible?

 

But it seems that even winning clubs in nice facilities are losing crowds. What gives?

[scotchy]

Of course they did, but the move to the new stadium at the start of the 2012 season was IIRC heralded as the start of a new big era for the Saints.

IMHO it's fair to surmise crowds responded to the better facilities and the idea on the pitch they would start winning again, and of course at the end of the 2014 season they did lift the SL title again.

It seems, but I'm open to any analysis ESPECIALLY from our Saints colleagues on here that a big number of the new fans didn't come back as regulars for 2013 and 2014?

Do you feel this is plausible?

but that was your reason that the fall at Saints couldn't be put down to the change in structure.

[The Parksider]

but that was your reason that the fall at Saints couldn't be put down to the change in structure.

 

I do apologise, I don't understand your point. I just think that 2012 was a good year partly because saints attracted 14,000 fans that year. They attract a lot less now in 2015 and IMHO it's nowt to do with the structure changing for the reasons I outline.

 

But it seems that even winning clubs in nice facilities are losing crowds. What gives?

 

What gives depends on the circumstances at each club I can only suggest that a very big factor that dictates crowd levels more than nice facilities is success. 15,000 in the Odsal dump and 3,000 in the latest new nice facility in the AJBell, is a clue.

 

Without doubt though Hull and Wire had a nice jump in crowds with their nice facilities.

[scotchy]

Yeah and one the reasons you outlined was that saints were without a trophy for a few years. They haven't been. They won super league last year.

[zorquif]

I do apologise, I don't understand your point. I just think that 2012 was a good year partly because saints attracted 14,000 fans that year. They attract a lot less now in 2015 and IMHO it's nowt to do with the structure changing for the reasons I outline.

 

 

What gives depends on the circumstances at each club I can only suggest that a very big factor that dictates crowd levels more than nice facilities is success. 15,000 in the Odsal dump and 3,000 in the latest new nice facility in the AJBell, is a clue.

 

Without doubt though Hull and Wire had a nice jump in crowds with their nice facilities.

 

That accounts for increases. What about Wigan and Saints, both of whom have been fairly successful and play in nice facilities?

[scotchy]

When, in your opinion, did we start putting it in place. A month and year would work.

middle/back end of 2013. There was a huge controversy over wood trying to force through the change in October of that year the led 6 SL clubs to walk out of the meeting so that the meeting didn't meet quorum and a vote couldn't be taken. A lot of people were very angry that Wood seemed to be trying to us the world cup to force through the change (in the end he figured out honey attracted more flies than vinegar and so instead of trying to push them in to it he just gave them them some money)

[The Parksider]

Yeah and one the reasons you outlined was that saints were without a trophy for a few years. They haven't been. They won super league last year.

 

Saints moved into Langtree Park in 2012 and raised expectations that the club would now get back to winning trophies. The fans responded by providing the club with a 14,000 average attendance.

 

The team didn't play well, lost games, didn't get near a trophy and Royce Simmons was sacked. they didn't win a trophy in 2013 either. At the end of 2014 yes of course they finally got back to trophy winning ways.

 

Again I don't understand your point. It may be you feel that in winning SL (thanks to playing 12 men but hey ho) the fans lost from the 2014 season should have all come back this??

[scotchy]

So why are their attendances down now? Are you saying that saints got lots of fans on the hope of more trophies only to lose them on the actual achievement of that hope?

It is your claim that trophies are a major factor in attendance rises, I'm asking why the figures don't show that in Saints case.

[The Parksider]

That accounts for increases. What about Wigan and Saints, both of whom have been fairly successful and play in nice facilities?

 

I'm happy for you or Scotchy to suggest reasons for crowd changes, I've explained why I think Saints crowds fell away, I remember Hull crowds getting to 11,000 on new facilities then going up to 13,000 (HKR games excepted) after they won the cup and made old trafford.

 

I think all clubs who hit the heights and look like they are going places can get a nice hike of a couple of thousand fans, Wire did after two cup finals and an old trafford appearance.

 

the Fairweather fans, the bandwagon jumpers are a phenomenon I think we all appreciate. I'm just setting out what I think and I won't go round in circles defending it. I'm happy to concede to your analysis or Scotchy's rather than that.

[Mattrhino]

Are we not including magic weekend figures to clubs average attendances.

The Aviva Premiership use this practice using the London double headers to boost their average attendance figures. Not saying it's right but it does give a positive spin on crowds for the media.

[zorquif]

I'm happy for you or Scotchy to suggest reasons for crowd changes, I've explained why I think Saints crowds fell away, I remember Hull crowds getting to 11,000 on new facilities then going up to 13,000 (HKR games excepted) after they won the cup and made old trafford.

 

I think all clubs who hit the heights and look like they are going places can get a nice hike of a couple of thousand fans, Wire did after two cup finals and an old trafford appearance.

 

the Fairweather fans, the bandwagon jumpers are a phenomenon I think we all appreciate. I'm just setting out what I think and I won't go round in circles defending it. I'm happy to concede to your analysis or Scotchy's rather than that.

 

I'm not picking holes, and I accept that decent facilities and results should lead to increase. Likewise, I accept that a rubbish stadium and crappy results might lead to poor crowds. BUT - I can't see the reason why a club like Wigan or Saints (the grand finalists this year, in nice stadia) should fall. Does this not worry you?

[The Parksider]

I'm not picking holes, and I accept that decent facilities and results should lead to increase. Likewise, I accept that a rubbish stadium and crappy results might lead to poor crowds. BUT - I can't see the reason why a club like Wigan or Saints (the grand finalists this year, in nice stadia) should fall. Does this not worry you?

 

Its a worry Saints got 11,569 crowds at Knowsley Road Dump

 

It's a worry that despite nicking the grand final 2014 they do not seem to be getting better crowds this year in the shiney new ground.

 

To some extent it could partly be that the top clubs have lost stars to RU & NRL they are unable to replace. After all the Tomkins, Burgesses, Eastmonds, Grahams were the players people often paid to watch. The top clubs look thinner on star players and a few that play now don't look that great.

 

But I'm only suggesting these things, like the reduction in quality players????? I'd love to hear your view and Scotchy's as to why the gates at the top end are down from 2012, we may find a concensus, hopefully a lot earlier than you two did on the Hull thread.

 

I don't mean that sarcastically.....

[zorquif]

Well young parkston, your guess is as good as mine. I was hoping for a glimmer of insight from you guys that keep a much closer eye on these things.

[Exiled Wiganer]

saints won SL last year

But their spectators knew they weren't the best side

I agree with much of Parky's long post but his dig at Solly remains as childish and insane as ever. It's the man's JOB to put a positive spin on things.