Theresa May: Political Giant

[Bob8]

This lady survived as Home Secretary for over six years and has been a Minister since 2010. 

For most of the time as Prime Minister, people have been predicting her imminent demise.  Particularly when Brexit means different things to its different supporters, and one side assume it should be easy and the other think it is a bad idea.  When it turns out to be difficult, both sides are angry.

And yet, she survives.  Her plan was to set leadership for her party and bring it together at a time when it looked like falling in on itself.  She did it and it was Labour left in disarray.

Her next step was to gain her credibility and gain an extra two years.  She needed extra MP's loyal to her who would give her the majority through tough decisions and give her credibility as party leader.  She buggered up the campaign royally, but the move was right.

Since then, Rees-Mogg launched his leadership bid and it has faded away. 

There is no-one else who looks like they can take over.  Part of this is because we do not actually know what May thinks about Brexit.  I have had Eurocrats stay at may place, who consider Davis and IDS to be very dim, but with May....they do not know. 

History has been kind to John Major, I suspect it will be kind to Theresa May too.  The circusmstances are very difficult, and people are blaming her for Brexit or balming her for Brexit being difficult.

[Griff9of13]

10 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

There is no-one else who looks like they can take over.  Part of this is because we do not actually know what May thinks about Brexit.  I have had Eurocrats stay at may place, who consider Davis and IDS to be very dim, but with May....they do not know. 

Is that because anyone with any sense wouldn't go anywhere near the poison chalice of being PM responsible for the destruction that brexit will inevitably bring? 

[Bob8]

3 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

Is that because anyone with any sense wouldn't go anywhere near the poison chalice of being PM responsible for the destruction that brexit will inevitably bring? 

Yes.

Only an idiot would got for the job, and that idiot was Rees Mogg, whose campaign was bright, but ultimately got nowhere.

[gingerjon]

History has been kind of John Major as a person.

He has one achievement that I think he is only now getting credit for and that is the groundwork for the Good Friday Agreement.

He held a government together but it didn't achieve really much positive. He probably has a greater legacy in being a sort-of icon for working class Tories.

However, even his weak government was more cohesive than the current one with only the one comparatively small faction of outright EU sceptic hostility meaning he couldn't go anywhere near that.

[Bob8]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

History has been kind of John Major as a person.

He has one achievement that I think he is only now getting credit for and that is the groundwork for the Good Friday Agreement.

He held a government together but it didn't achieve really much positive. He probably has a greater legacy in being a sort-of icon for working class Tories.

However, even his weak government was more cohesive than the current one with only the one comparatively small faction of outright EU sceptic hostility meaning he couldn't go anywhere near that.

Indeed.

That she buggered up the campaign as badly as she did means she has clear limitations (my title was OTT).  When I look at Labour and the Tories being close in the polls, it is remarkable. 

Brexit supporters will broadly see Brexit as straight forward and will be disappointed.  Those against Brexit will not thank her.  Yet, Labour and the Tories are still level pegging.  She is keen to get Brexit through by 2019, as it gives her an extra two years to save the Tories from annihilation at the polls.  An extra two years they have because of the last election, which Labour supporters were happy about.

Clearly, a Bismarck could turn this all round, but he did not ahve to deal with voters to the same extent. 

[Trojan]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

History has been kind of John Major as a person.

He has one achievement that I think he is only now getting credit for and that is the groundwork for the Good Friday Agreement.

He held a government together but it didn't achieve really much positive. He probably has a greater legacy in being a sort-of icon for working class Tories.

However, even his weak government was more cohesive than the current one with only the one comparatively small faction of outright EU sceptic hostility meaning he couldn't go anywhere near that.

TBF he recovered the economy from the mess it was seen to be in after Black Wednesday.  The mess was there already but it was only revealed by Black Wednesday.  The mess was created by Thatcher and Lawson, but as was usual with Teflon Maggie the blame never stuck.  I think Major did a great job given the circumstances.  I don't think the Tories really wanted to win the 1992 election, but Kinnock handed it to them on a plate, destroying years of patient image building with his outburst at Sheffield, so they were stuck with having to get the economy back on track and shoulder the blame.

I don't think in integrity or stature, May measures up to John Major, and the rest of the cabinet are dross.  I don't really blame May for this, I blame Cameron and Osborne, possibly the worst PM and Chancellor of my lifetime.

[gingerjon]

The very obvious reason why the Tories and Labour are level pegging is that for quite a lot of the electorate a party led by an IRA-supporting Iran-chummy communist of dubious metropolitanism is more repulsive than one led by a complete and total lightweight incompetent.

[Griff9of13]

5 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The very obvious reason why the Tories and Labour are level pegging is that for quite a lot of the electorate a party led by an IRA-supporting Iran-chummy communist of dubious metropolitanism is more repulsive than one led by a complete and total lightweight incompetent.

Indeed. If Labour had, well, just about anybody else as leader they'd probably have a double digit lead in the polls. 

[The Future is League]

28 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The very obvious reason why the Tories and Labour are level pegging is that for quite a lot of the electorate a party led by an IRA-supporting Iran-chummy communist of dubious metropolitanism is more repulsive than one led by a complete and total lightweight incompetent.

If he is as friendly with Iran as some people claim perhaps he could use that as tool to get the British-Iranian women released from that Iranian prison on trumped up charges. Now that would really gain him some brownies points, but i somehow feel he won't get involved

21 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

Indeed. If Labour had, well, just about anybody else as leader they'd probably have a double digit lead in the polls. 

Can't disagree with that, but if a GE is held within the next year Corbyn will win it

[Martyn Sadler]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

The very obvious reason why the Tories and Labour are level pegging is that for quite a lot of the electorate a party led by an IRA-supporting Iran-chummy communist of dubious metropolitanism is more repulsive than one led by a complete and total lightweight incompetent.

Amazingly enough I agree with you.

Can it be a first?

[ckn]

I simply can't agree about May, she's nothing but Michael Howard in a dress and just as ineffective a leader.

As Home Secretary, she did what no Tory politician has done in generations: lost the goodwill of the police.  She talked tough about crime and anti-terrorism but then imposed double digit cuts on both areas in the name of austerity, then still had the gall to talk about how tough the Tories were in this area.

Becoming PM, she got into the job because Gove took out both Boris and himself.  No-one else senior or part-way credible wanted the job because, well, Brexit.  She wouldn't have got the job in any other year.  I'm more convinced today than ever that the Boris/Gove thing was a setup as both realised what was coming and neither wanted the job; I think both would love being leader of the opposition and being able to ramble on about stuff without any responsibility for actually doing things.

As PM, she's taken an unassailable lead with all polling predictions giving 100+ majorities, even at the worst-case scenario she should have expected a 70-100 majority, and blown a majority government into a minority one.  All while going against the worst Labour leader in my lifetime, at least Michael Foot had a set of policies you could point to and argue for or against, and one who all newspapers, including left-leaning ones, were describing as a disaster waiting to happen on par with the Labour government in its last days of 1979.  Even Derek Hatton was disowning Jeremy Corbyn!  For May to get a minority government out of that chaos is inexcusable and this will be what she's remembered for in the history books.

She's the worst sort of leader you can imagine.  She has neither the courage nor the conviction to stand up to what is wrong. 

- She can clearly see Boris needs to be sacked, he needed that a long time ago but she simply does not have either the courage or conviction to do it as she needs him; no other Tory leader in my lifetime would have tolerated 1/3 of his dross. 

- No leader of any party would have accepted the blackmail letter from Gove and Boris, she simply lacks the courage and conviction to stand up to either. 

- She can clearly see other ministers who need to be escorted not just from their ministerial seats but also the Tory party, simply from that Tory spreadsheet alone, but she dare not because she needs the votes. 

- She can clearly see that there are major parts of the country that are falling apart and her courage and conviction has led her to aggressively and proactively blame others, e.g. Simon Stevens in the NHS is getting the blame in advance for this winter's problems caused by the Tories cutting NHS funding.  She goes missing when the times get tough, from being utterly anonymous during Brexit to hiding during troubles as Home Secretary.

- She says she was a Remain voter but she's acting like the worst Brexiteer imaginable, taking cues from Rees Mogg and the Brexit nutjobs rather than trying to drive a centrist line (edit: by centrist, I mean centre of the Tory party, not politically central).  She thinks that the least-trouble path for her is the Brexiteer path and hoped that the Remain Tories would remain loyal in the Commons votes.  She really would happily consign the country to relegation to third rate status than risk her precious occupation of Number 10.  She's treating the country and Brexit vote as if it had been an overwhelming majority voting for the hardest of hard Brexits rather than a scant majority (within margins of error if it had been an opinion poll) on a very simple in/out question.

I'm really not saying this as an anti-Tory, there are plenty of Tories out there who would do a good job as Tory leader on Tory values.  Historically, John Major I respected in power but post-power he became a bit of a thwaite.  Hague was in the Ed Miliband category of Tory Leader, just too soft and woolly to be electable but would probably have been a very good PM.  Even the likes of Jeremy Hunt would be a good PM.  Then there's others a tier down such as Greg Clark who would make a very good centre-right Tory leader.  I wouldn't agree with any of their politics but they'd make very good Tory PMs.  May's incompetence makes the story about Nero fiddling while Rome burned seem almost quaint.

But Theresa May, political giant?  No, political pygmy on the stage only because she was stupid enough to want the job while everyone else was looking at the job going "erm, no".

[gingerjon]

Just now, Martyn Sadler said:

Amazingly enough I agree with you.

Can it be a first?

Second.

I think we're both partial to rugby league.

[ckn]

35 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

If he is as friendly with Iran as some people claim perhaps he could use that as tool to get the British-Iranian women released from that Iranian prison on trumped up charges. Now that would really gain him some brownies points, but i somehow feel he won't get involved

 

There was an article in the Indy a few days ago on that subject.

[The Future is League]

1 hour ago, ckn said:

There was an article in the Indy a few days ago on that subject.

George Galloway perhaps could also help to get the women's release as he has worked in the past for press TV

[This Sporting Strife]

3 hours ago, Bob8 said:

 

There is no-one else who looks like they can take over. 

There is one. But he's not in the conservative party.

[Bob8]

1 hour ago, ckn said:

I simply can't agree about May, she's nothing but Michael Howard in a dress and just as ineffective a leader.

As Home Secretary, she did what no Tory politician has done in generations: lost the goodwill of the police.  She talked tough about crime and anti-terrorism but then imposed double digit cuts on both areas in the name of austerity, then still had the gall to talk about how tough the Tories were in this area.

Becoming PM, she got into the job because Gove took out both Boris and himself.  No-one else senior or part-way credible wanted the job because, well, Brexit.  She wouldn't have got the job in any other year.  I'm more convinced today than ever that the Boris/Gove thing was a setup as both realised what was coming and neither wanted the job; I think both would love being leader of the opposition and being able to ramble on about stuff without any responsibility for actually doing things.

As PM, she's taken an unassailable lead with all polling predictions giving 100+ majorities, even at the worst-case scenario she should have expected a 70-100 majority, and blown a majority government into a minority one.  All while going against the worst Labour leader in my lifetime, at least Michael Foot had a set of policies you could point to and argue for or against, and one who all newspapers, including left-leaning ones, were describing as a disaster waiting to happen on par with the Labour government in its last days of 1979.  Even Derek Hatton was disowning Jeremy Corbyn!  For May to get a minority government out of that chaos is inexcusable and this will be what she's remembered for in the history books.

I would say there are very good reasons for her to seem ineffective.  As you say, she had taken the leadership at a dreadful time.

As for her record, well, I do not approve.  But, in terms of effectiveness, she is more Thatcher than Trump.  She made swinging cuts.  Clearly, bad to us, but she got them through.

That unassailable lead was something she built.  The referendum result looked like a disaster for the Tory party.  Sheo brought them from the brink.  She also outplayed the SNP. 

Then, yes....the election campaign....that was very poor.

1 hour ago, ckn said:

She's the worst sort of leader you can imagine.  She has neither the courage nor the conviction to stand up to what is wrong. 

- She can clearly see Boris needs to be sacked, he needed that a long time ago but she simply does not have either the courage or conviction to do it as she needs him; no other Tory leader in my lifetime would have tolerated 1/3 of his dross. 

- No leader of any party would have accepted the blackmail letter from Gove and Boris, she simply lacks the courage and conviction to stand up to either. 

- She can clearly see other ministers who need to be escorted not just from their ministerial seats but also the Tory party, simply from that Tory spreadsheet alone, but she dare not because she needs the votes. 

- She can clearly see that there are major parts of the country that are falling apart and her courage and conviction has led her to aggressively and proactively blame others, e.g. Simon Stevens in the NHS is getting the blame in advance for this winter's problems caused by the Tories cutting NHS funding.  She goes missing when the times get tough, from being utterly anonymous during Brexit to hiding during troubles as Home Secretary.

- She says she was a Remain voter but she's acting like the worst Brexiteer imaginable, taking cues from Rees Mogg and the Brexit nutjobs rather than trying to drive a centrist line (edit: by centrist, I mean centre of the Tory party, not politically central).  She thinks that the least-trouble path for her is the Brexiteer path and hoped that the Remain Tories would remain loyal in the Commons votes.  She really would happily consign the country to relegation to third rate status than risk her precious occupation of Number 10.  She's treating the country and Brexit vote as if it had been an overwhelming majority voting for the hardest of hard Brexits rather than a scant majority (within margins of error if it had been an opinion poll) on a very simple in/out question.

I'm really not saying this as an anti-Tory, there are plenty of Tories out there who would do a good job as Tory leader on Tory values.  Historically, John Major I respected in power but post-power he became a bit of a thwaite.  Hague was in the Ed Miliband category of Tory Leader, just too soft and woolly to be electable but would probably have been a very good PM.  Even the likes of Jeremy Hunt would be a good PM.  Then there's others a tier down such as Greg Clark who would make a very good centre-right Tory leader.  I wouldn't agree with any of their politics but they'd make very good Tory PMs.  May's incompetence makes the story about Nero fiddling while Rome burned seem almost quaint.

But Theresa May, political giant?  No, political pygmy on the stage only because she was stupid enough to want the job while everyone else was looking at the job going "erm, no".

It is true that I do not believe that she actually thinks a hard Brexit is good for the country.  That she has the Brexiteers in the positions responsible for Brexit shows she is covering for the upcoming flak of people claiming that Brexit was betrayed.  In the meantime, she is going for a hard Brexit in an utterly pragmatic move to unite the Conservative party.  I do not like it, but politically it is astute.

Blunty, other then is disasterous campaign and the poor situation it left her in, I struggle to see any other person doing a better job.

[Bob8]

8 minutes ago, This Sporting Strife said:

There is one. But he's not in the conservative party.

You speak of Hywel Williams obviously.

[This Sporting Strife]

2 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

You speak of Hywel Williams obviously.

Nay lad, Ian blackford

[Bob8]

1 minute ago, This Sporting Strife said:

Nay lad, Ian blackford

Oh yes.

I forgot.

[This Sporting Strife]

7 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

You speak of Hywel Williams obviously.

There's also that other auld fella that the young'uns seem to like so much...

[Bob8]

1 minute ago, This Sporting Strife said:

There's also that other auld fella that the young'uns seem to like so much...

Yes.

I am sick of kids and their Hywel Williams posters.

[This Sporting Strife]

2 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

Yes.

I am sick of kids and their Hywel Williams posters.

I mean, how the likes of this 'certain older MP' get to be so popular, I just can't understand. Why would people want equality, a proper health service and an education that doesn't cost more than a house?

[Bob8]

13 minutes ago, This Sporting Strife said:

I mean, how the likes of this 'certain older MP' get to be so popular, I just can't understand. Why would people want equality, a proper health service and an education that doesn't cost more than a house?

Yup, Hywel is quite a man.

[This Sporting Strife]

8 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

Yup, Hywel is quite a man.

Ordinarily, that stamp of politician would mean nothing to me.  I mean, what can old folk from the likes of Wales or Islington, give me? But when he starts trying to rejig the economy so it works for everybody instead of lining the pockets of the few, I have to draw a line. 

[tonyXIII]

Theresa May - political giant?