WCC Scheduling

[Scubby]

1 hour ago, graveyard johnny said:

wasn't the average wwc score over 2014 - 16 something like, 113- 18? you expect them to get exited about that?

2014 was one game Roosters v Wigan

[graveyard johnny]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Aye, the couple last year were a bit one sided but i think this years game should be close.

if storm field a full serious team that WANT to win it will be about as close as Glasgow to Moscow

[The Great Dane]

10 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

The idea that 8pm on a Saturday night is a bad time to show sport is nonsense.

Yeah no, you don't understand.

The difference between a Friday night and a Saturday night for the NRLs ratings is huge, it really depends on the teams that are participating so it's hard to get an exact average difference between the two time slots, but depending on the teams in the match the difference can be between 100k - 600k more on a Friday in prime time when compared to a Saturday in prime time. So for example a game between two smaller teams will pull roughly 100k more a Friday then on a Saturday and a game between to big teams will pull roughly anywhere between 300k - 600k more.

I think that you and Dave T are projecting your experiences in England onto Australia and expecting the same results, when it's simply not the case.

10 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

The idea that a triple header would have been a worse spot for it is nonsense. 

Ahh what?

10 hours ago, Dave T said:

I acknowledged this argument in the opening post. It is short sighted though. Saturday would not prevent this event being grown in Oz and you would get better numbers in a 2nd market.

On your last paragraph - that is correct, it is a joke all round. The scheduling for cross-hemisphere games really needs more consideration.

That's true, but a Friday night will always be bigger and hold an order of magnitude more potential for growth here in Australia then a Saturday.

Depending on how the broadcasting rights are written up it might also be the difference between a slot on FTA and PTV which is a huge difference as well.

[Dave T]

But this isnt just a game for Oz media. This is the point. It isnt an NRL game. It is a cross-comp game and should be catering for both audiences.

That goes for wherever it is staged.

The World Cup showed that you can get as many for a Saturday as a Friday even with huge competition from other sport taking a share of the market.

I know you guys just defend everything Ozzie based, but this constant attitude of just short term tv figures is harming the game. It harmed the World Cup and it will harm this tournament.

 

[The Great Dane]

10 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Just as a comparitive Dave, when the WCC games have been played in this country, how have the days and times affected the Australian viewers, if at all?

It doesn't really matter what day or time that it's played the ratings are always abysmal, they're normally roughly around 25-30k.

To put that into perspective that's similar numbers to what the Koori Knockout and Murri Carnival pull, and the Koori and Murri carnivals are amateur indigenous round robins in NSW and QLD respectively, in other words they are competitions almost completely made up of nameless park footballers most of whom have never looked like they could ever go professional let alone have trialed with a professional team.  

Again for perspective, this draws roughly the same viewership down here as the WCC- 

Now to be fair those figures are only the live ratings and don't include replays of the WCC, cause I don't know what they are and as far as I can find they aren't published, but I'd imagine that if you included the ratings for replays that the ratings would be larger then the Murri and Koori cups, but the point still stands.

Also I'm not trying to ###### anybody off, I'm just trying to give you some perspective and to get you to understand where things are for the WCC down here.

[The Great Dane]

3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

1. Is this the bit you pretend that things are just how you say regardless of the vast wealth of evidence proving you wrong? You learned what plenipotentiary means yet?

I'm not the ###### that was pretending that the American Ambassador to South Korea has the codes to the nukes in case Pyongyang decides to fire one at Seoul, and I wasn't the one that was pretending that I didn't understand the difference between whats written on paper in theory and what is practical in the real world.

And you still haven't produced a single shred of evidence that conclusively proves that the NRL as an organisation had any input into the development of an international window, you've just said that 'these people that work at the NRL or are on the ARLC and hold positions at the RLIF', and from there you have assumed that A: those people themselves had input on the decisions and that they were supportive of the decision if they indeed did have an input at all, none of which we have any clue as to whether or not it is true or not, and B: that they hold the unilateral power at the NRL to make a decision like that for the whole of not just the NRL but all of Australian RL, which we know for a fact isn't true.

But this isn't either the time or the place for this argument, and I refuse to engage in this discussion with you any longer anyway cause you have shown that you aren't an honest participant in said discussion and that you aren't interested in trying to find out as close to the truth as we can possibly ascertain and are only interested in 'winning' the argument. 

3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The fact is, they play NRL on Saturday nights. I know, sometimes watch it in the UK on a Saturday morning. They also regularly run tripleheaders on Saturdays in case you havent heard. Playing the WCC in Australia in an established NRL slot which is the most agreeable UK slot is not a hardship the NRL ubermensch should struggle with. 

I've never denied any of that, I'm only trying to make you understand that their is a huge difference between a Friday night and a Saturday night in this country, and that if you want what is best for the WCC as an event going forward you might want it on a Friday down here for a little while, especially considering that it's a bees dick from dying cause of the lack of interest down here.

3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

2. I am honestly at a loss as to what could have confused you about that sentence.

I didn't understand what a triple header had to do with the WCC, I still don't really, Super Saturday and the WCC seem completely unconnected to me, but whatever mate.  

[The Great Dane]

48 minutes ago, Dave T said:

But this isnt just a game for Oz media. This is the point. It isnt an NRL game. It is a cross-comp game and should be catering for both audiences.

That goes for wherever it is staged.

That's fair and I agree, I'm just saying that the result this time probably isn't a bad outcome in the long run WCC.

I'd also note that historically practically zero attention has been payed to catering to the Australian audience when organising a WCC up north, so it's kind of weird that it's a big deal now that the shoe is on the other foot.

48 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The World Cup showed that you can get as many for a Saturday as a Friday even with huge competition from other sport taking a share of the market.

Ahh no it didn't, Friday games during the WC rated roughly between 700k - 1mil in Australia, Saturdays on average were give or take roughly half that with a few notable exceptions.  

Now you could say that the difference in numbers was heavily influenced by the teams playing, and I'd agree, but I'd also say that from the evidence that we can take from the NRL season those Saturday games would have drawn more on Friday then they would have on a Saturday.

48 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I know you guys just defend everything Ozzie based, but this constant attitude of just short term tv figures is harming the game. It harmed the World Cup and it will harm this tournament.

 

Short term TV figures (and sponsorship money) are going to be the only difference between every NRL club outright refusing to participate in the WCC/WCS at all next year and them giving it another chance. 

You really don't seem to understand just how bad things are for the WCC down here, it's literally a 50/50 between the event continuing past the 2018 season and it being assigned to the history books, and it all depends on the game this year being well received down here, and the best chance for it to be received in the best possible light it needs to be played on FTA on Friday in prime time.

I'd also note that short term TV/streaming ratings are the difference between billion dollar contracts and tens of million dollar contracts... That's how the business works, we might not like it, but it is what it is.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, The Great Dane said:

It doesn't really matter what day or time that it's played the ratings are always abysmal, they're normally roughly around 25-30k.

To put that into perspective that's similar numbers to what the Koori Knockout and Murri Carnival pull, and the Koori and Murri carnivals are amateur indigenous round robins in NSW and QLD respectively, in other words they are competitions almost completely made up of nameless park footballers most of whom have never looked like they could ever go professional let alone have trialed with a professional team.  

Again for perspective, this draws roughly the same viewership down here as the WCC- 

Now to be fair those figures are only the live ratings and don't include replays of the WCC, cause I don't know what they are and as far as I can find they aren't published, but I'd imagine that if you included the ratings for replays that the ratings would be larger then the Murri and Koori cups, but the point still stands.

Also I'm not trying to ###### anybody off, I'm just trying to give you some perspective and to get you to understand where things are for the WCC down here.

Thanks for the heads up, very interesting numbers, but basically if we are looking at live for live comparisons then normal daylight or early evening is going to win every time over when one should still be asleep.

But as you say if the interest is not there, it is not there.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Thanks for the heads up, very interesting numbers, but basically if we are looking at live for live comparisons then normal daylight or early evening is going to win every time over when one should still be asleep.

But as you say if the interest is not there, it is not there.

The problem is that this discussion is about the UK where there is an amount of interest in this event. Those low numbers support the assertion that we shouldnt alienate the UK audience.

[The Great Dane]

 

22 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

3. Its pretty silly to argue that the WCC will work if its organised for the convenience of the Australian fan. Its quite obvious that it needs to appeal to both. Otherwise its pointless. Playing it on a Friday night in Australia is as stupid as playing it on a Sunday night in England. 

Just like organising it for the convenience of English fans for the last 20 years hasn't been good for it down here, and basically killed the whole event as a viable product...

English fans didn't seem to care back when that was the case, it was all fine and dandy when it was a rigged cash cow controlled by a handful of powerful pommy clubs, that was fine, now that the NRL has literally saved the WCC from dying (the game this year wouldn't be happening if the NRL didn't step in) everything has to be perfectly fair and equal...

I'm just going to be blunt here, the WCC was f##ked until literally a couple of months ago when the NRL (not the Storm, not the NRL clubs, the NRL it's self) stepped in and saved it and organised the event for this year, it would have died last year, probably should have died last year, if it wasn't for the NRL.

What the NRL is trying to do is save it as a product in the eyes of the clubs, cause if you want the WCC to continue past this year that is what needs to happen, to do that they need to make this event as big and as successful as possible for the Storm, the Storm needs to make barrows full of cash from it, and the best chance that they have of doing that is if it is organise to go ahead in the most favourable conditions, and unfortunately for you the most favourable conditions include the game going ahead on a Friday night.

Now, is the game going ahead on a Friday night ideal- no, should it be played on a Friday night in Australia every year- no, but right now the WCC is in cardiac arrest and the best available defibrillator is a Friday night in Australia.

So really what you are complaining about considering the circumstances is beyond insignificant, cause the only way that the WCC goes ahead at all this year is if it's played in Australia on a Friday night, the game between the Storm and Leeds wasn't going to happen any other way, so what would you prefer the games not perfect but goes head or it doesn't happen at all, cause really that was the only options that were on offer.  

22 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

4.Pssst...there are two other NRL v SL games going on that day. In Australia. Im definitely convinced by your in depth knowledge of Australian Rugby League. 

Neither of those games are connected to the WCC/WCS, neither of them are being sold as WCS games, and neither of them were organised to be connected to either the WCC or as part of a WCS, so what relevance do they have to the current discussion?  Basically none.

BTW, the quicker you learn that the NRL and Australian RL is run more like a Mafia then a government or your average business the quicker you'll come to understand more about the ARLC, NRL, Australian RL in general, and how it is organised and run...

[The Great Dane]

25 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The problem is that this discussion is about the UK where there is an amount of interest in this event. Those low numbers support the assertion that we shouldnt alienate the UK audience.

That's all well and good but the event isn't going to continue at all if interest doesn't grow in Australia, so the UK audience is going to have to make some concessions otherwise there isn't going to be a WCC at all.

And frankly the reason that the WCC is in the position that it is in is because Australian audiences have been completely alienated for the events whole existence, if you want the WCC to grow or at the very least become a viable product again then Australian audiences need to be taken into consideration as well...

[The Great Dane]

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

 

1. I have to be honest. It seems weird that you highlighted the first part of the quote, then parroted back the second part of the quote to me. Only longer and including things you made up.

Im glad we agree that it is stupid though.

What exactly have I made up?

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

2. Nobody has suggested they are. Simply that they are being played that day. And three games played in a row are called a tripleheader. Something that happens regularly. On a Saturday. In Australia. Like this should have.

This seems to be a cultural difference, in Australia it'd only be considered a triple header if it's packaged and sold together, that isn't the case for these games.

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

3. Is that supposed to be a defence of Australian RL? I agree they are crappy, short-sighted parochial organisation, run by vested interested protecting their own fiefdom rather than for the good of the sport, thats the reason i criticise them.  It makes it very strange that you defend them.

No not a defence at all, rather a response to your ###### about the ARLC, NRL, etc, as pertains to each parts power and how Australian RL is organised and operated, and how much power and responsibility each part of the structure has.

[East Coast Tiger]

Are the sooks still whinging that this and isn't on at 8pm GMT? 

We know northerners don't understand the world south of Sheffield (they're an expansion club right?) but this is ridiculous.

Where was the thread previously when games were on Monday mornings here? No complaints then? 

But we know the rfl is a

22 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

 crappy, short-sighted parochial organisation, run by vested interested protecting their own fiefdom rather than for the good of the sport

so it was no surprise. 

[East Coast Tiger]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Yeah, big fan of the RFL me. Can't stop defending them. Never hear a bad word about them on these boards.

You should recognise your hypocrisy then. 

[East Coast Tiger]

11 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Perhaps when you recognise sarcasm?

I think you'll find I did. No doubt you can now show me your comments on the rfl and the timing of the WCC when it was on Monday morning in the biggest RL market in the world last year.

[The Great Dane]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

1. That long boring pointless story you told after repeating back to me what I said

Oh I see, so no examples then...

Quote

2. Ahhh, Australian Culture. Where three games played consecutively isnt a tripleheader. Divided by a common language eh!

So if a cinema plays three unconnected movies in a row and you have to pay for entry to each individual movie it's a triple-header then? Cause that can be extrapolated from what you are saying, but you wouldn't want to be thorough though would you, that might be "long and boring".

You do realise that the Wigan v Rabbits and Hull v Saints games are being shown on Fox, and BTW are being sold as a double header, and that the WCC is being shown on Nine by it's self.

Do you even realise that Nine and Fox aren't the same thing...

Quote

3. Good, Im glad we agree that the NRL/ARLC should be criticised for these things. Seems weird you argued so vociferously the opposite but they say you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, you drank. Good work. 

You see we do agree that the NRL is " short-sighted parochial organisation", where we disagree is that you think that the RFL/SL isn't just as bad if not worse.

But I know, you guys played some random pointless internationals/exhibition games in foreign countries a few times with no continued funding or support for the host nations after the games and you let some random cashed up international teams into some of your comps... Big f##king whoop, you're so virtuous... 

The NRL has played random internationals and exhibition games and they've let random cashed up business men start clubs in their comps too, the only differences between the NRL ans RFL that I can see is that the NRL has given up on the headline catching BS and doubled down on the stuff that matters in the real world- money and resources, and have continued to bank roll RL in NZ, the PIs, and a growing number of other nations and areas while the RFL has cut actual substantial funding and support to the nations around it, and the other difference is that the RFL, it's clubs, and it's fans seem to think that the NRL owes them something and that the NRL is obliged to do things like the WCC or one off internationals in Denver with no support planned to grow the sport in Denver after the game is over...

[Sports Prophet]

On 11/01/2018 at 7:14 AM, Sports Prophet said:

That's what happens when a fixture is scheduled and managed by those that consider the WCC an after thought.

Sad really.

Can't believe the back and forth of this discussion. The main sticking point is being missed by both sides of the argument.

I will refer above to my original comment and expand.

The WCC is organised by the home club and home governors. Planning for the fixture is not even considered until Oct/Nov prior.

The sticking point is that the WCC is delivered by organisations that understandably have higher priorities. Even less of a concern are the viewing figures of a country the other side of the world. The return on investment in caring is minimal and perhaps a loss. Why would Melbourne and the NRL take a hit on short term profit over potentially negligible long term aspirations?

The fact of the matter is, neither the RFL or NRL should be managing this fixture. Their primary remit represents a conflict of interest with the ambitions and potential an international fixture of this nature should represent.

[Dave T]

8 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Can't believe the back and forth of this discussion. The main sticking point is being missed by both sides of the argument.

I will refer above to my original comment and expand.

The WCC is organised by the home club and home governors. Planning for the fixture is not even considered until Oct/Nov prior.

The sticking point is that the WCC is delivered by organisations that understandably have higher priorities. Even less of a concern are the viewing figures of a country the other side of the world. The return on investment in caring is minimal and perhaps a loss. Why would Melbourne and the NRL take a hit on short term profit over potentially negligible long term aspirations?

The fact of the matter is, neither the RFL or NRL should be managing this fixture. Their primary remit represents a conflict of interest with the ambitions and potential an international fixture of this nature should represent.

nobody is missing that point. But it has been said and nothing else to say on it.

[Dave T]

The big problem here is that if the Aussies then buy into it as a Friday night event, we have a challenge as that restricts the growth here moving forward.

This event apparently gets nothing at the moment in Oz, so the starting point is the Saturday night slot which meets the UK requirements and saw Sydney Roosters attract a massive crowd in 2014. That is the starting point - now that may mean that the Aussie broadcaster gets a slightly reduced audience, but as I have proven audiences for events are available on Saturday just as they are Friday (I have provided conclusive proof so we don't need to go over that again).

It is no good holding it in England one year and getting all its viewership in the UK, and then the following year in Oz and getting all its viewership in Oz. Annually we should be trying to build the audience in both parts of the world.

Basically we need to do what we do with the RLWC Final. It needs to be played at a time where the worldwide audience can be optimised.

The simple aim should be to have the overseas viewers watching as late on a Saturday morning as possible. That means 8pm Friday in the UK, and 8pm Saturday in Oz. That is what we should be selling, and growing that and getting the price for that.

[Dave T]

12 hours ago, East Coast Tiger said:

1 - Are the sooks still whinging that this and isn't on at 8pm GMT? 

2 - We know northerners don't understand the world south of Sheffield (they're an expansion club right?) but this is ridiculous.

3 - Where was the thread previously when games were on Monday mornings here? No complaints then? 

 

1 - nobody has suggested that. it would be retarded - that would mean a Melbourne 7am kick off. Although if it would get you guys viewing figures you'd be all over it.

2 - The irony. It seems we do understand how the globe works, and it seems you can stage games at reasonable times for all!

3 - You will find plenty of criticism of the RFL for scheduling, but that doesn't suit your argument. But in fairness I would expect those affected to be most passionate about it, but no, not a peep, as it isn't in your part of this flat earth.

 

[Dave T]

15 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

It doesn't really matter what day or time that it's played the ratings are always abysmal, they're normally roughly around 25-30k.

To put that into perspective that's similar numbers to what the Koori Knockout and Murri Carnival pull, and the Koori and Murri carnivals are amateur indigenous round robins in NSW and QLD respectively, in other words they are competitions almost completely made up of nameless park footballers most of whom have never looked like they could ever go professional let alone have trialed with a professional team.  

Again for perspective, this draws roughly the same viewership down here as the WCC- 

Now to be fair those figures are only the live ratings and don't include replays of the WCC, cause I don't know what they are and as far as I can find they aren't published, but I'd imagine that if you included the ratings for replays that the ratings would be larger then the Murri and Koori cups, but the point still stands.

Also I'm not trying to ###### anybody off, I'm just trying to give you some perspective and to get you to understand where things are for the WCC down here.

TGD - can I ask where you get your figures from? Not sure what the source is over there. Are you sure the 25-30k number was for WCC and not the SL games that were shown?

Also, what was the number for the game that Roosters staged in 2014?

[Dave T]

12 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

That's all well and good but the event isn't going to continue at all if interest doesn't grow in Australia, so the UK audience is going to have to make some concessions otherwise there isn't going to be a WCC at all.

And frankly the reason that the WCC is in the position that it is in is because Australian audiences have been completely alienated for the events whole existence, if you want the WCC to grow or at the very least become a viable product again then Australian audiences need to be taken into consideration as well...

Which is exactly what I have said from the start of this.

It isn't about the UK fans making concessions though, the numbers will just plummet, how can we justify that commercially?

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

nobody is missing that point. But it has been said and nothing else to say on it.

Sure DT and I am neither disagreeing with either argument, as both are equally valid.

 My point renders both arguments moot.

[Dave T]

Just now, Sports Prophet said:

Sure DT and I am neither disagreeing with either argument, as both are equally valid.

 My point renders both arguments moot.

Not really. The RFL staged terribly organised and scheduled events for the last 4N and the World Cup just gone had the same thing.

It is something we just haven't got as a sport, no matter which club/body is doing the organisation.

[Sports Prophet]

Just now, Dave T said:

Not really. The RFL staged terribly organised and scheduled events for the last 4N and the World Cup just gone had the same thing.

It is something we just haven't got as a sport, no matter which club/body is doing the organisation.

That’s my point mate. We have the wrong people in charge of running the event. Until changed, we can only expect more of the same.