Clubs vote in favour of New York and Ottawa

[westside]

3 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

I have noticed that, and I referred to them learning to offensive play too.  Then could learn that much more easily than offensive players could learn how to play defense when they've never had to before.

Not in college, but many play both sides of the ball in high school and everyone does at youth level. I posted Champ Bailey’s high school stats a while back but he did literally everything including kick. Most football coaches will take their best few athletes and plan around them. When you get to the college level, the players are mostly these “best athletes” from high school.

[Big Picture]

5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Don't care which way round you try to do it won't happen , the only way to get any sort of pro quality Canadian RL player will be to start with Union players 

As it happens, a good percentage of Canadian gridiron players have also played RU because in many high schools the players on their RU team every spring are also on the gridiron team in the autumn.  Those Canadian gridiron players would be well worth a look too.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Big Picture said:

As it happens, a good percentage of Canadian gridiron players have also played RU because in many high schools the players on their RU team every spring are also on the gridiron team in the autumn.  Those Canadian gridiron players would be well worth a look too.

So you are agreeing with me , any NA quality RL players will come from union , not gridiron 

[Big Picture]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

So you are agreeing with me , any NA quality RL players will come from union , not gridiron 

No, because those players who've played both are primarily gridiron players, not RU players.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

No, because those players who've played both are primarily gridiron players, not RU players.

Gridiron doesn't give them the necessary skills to play anything except gridiron , I don't care what you say they've ' primarily ' played , if they've not played some form of rugby they won't be able to play any level of pro RL , just like your fantasy ' world league ' , it isn't happening 

[rushend]

It’s difficult to know whether gridiron players can convert as it hasn’t been tried. Or, to the point, not tried with any conviction. Using Manfred Moore from the 70s and Philippe Gardent  (I think he played 5 games or so for Crusaders?) as examples doesn’t really say much about any potential development or crossover ability. A bit like the Dwain Chambers Castleford ‘experiment’ that lasted pretty much no time at all, there hasn’t been (at least to my knowledge) any concerted effort to develop players from gridiron over a reasonable period of time. And please don’t mention the TWP ‘trials’, again there was no real effort here (if anyone thinks that was a true attempt at converting players then I’m sorry to disappoint you, it wasn’t).

Contrast this to the NFL with their system of developing players from different codes. The one year contract international players can be signed to, with no need to ‘cut’ them  and thus a whole year of training and development with a team. 

And by the way, I knew several players in the 90s who were (good) American Football players who transitioned to rugby league (admittedly Elite One and the old Alliance reserves league) so at a ‘reasonable’ level of League, it has happened before. And no, as ex teammates and even family of mine I won’t name then. 

Until some real effort is placed on giving some players the time to convert (and no, I don’t have the magic answer to that), then we won’t ‘truly’ know if it is possible. 

[Big Picture]

2 minutes ago, rushend said:

It’s difficult to know whether gridiron players can convert as it hasn’t been tried. Or, to the point, not tried with any conviction. Using Manfred Moore from the 70s and Philippe Gardent  (I think he played 5 games or so for Crusaders?) as examples doesn’t really say much about any potential development or crossover ability. A bit like the Dwain Chambers Castleford ‘experiment’ that lasted pretty much no time at all, there hasn’t been (at least to my knowledge) any concerted effort to develop players from gridiron over a reasonable period of time. And please don’t mention the TWP ‘trials’, again there was no real effort here (if anyone thinks that was a true attempt at converting players then I’m sorry to disappoint you, it wasn’t).

Contrast this to the NFL with their system of developing players from different codes. The one year contract international players can be signed to, with no need to ‘cut’ them  and thus a whole year of training and development with a team. 

And by the way, I knew several players in the 90s who were (good) American Football players who transitioned to rugby league (admittedly Elite One and the old Alliance reserves league) so at a ‘reasonable’ level of League, it has happened before. And no, as ex teammates and even family of mine I won’t name then. 

Until some real effort is placed on giving some players the time to convert (and no, I don’t have the magic answer to that), then we won’t ‘truly’ know if it is possible. 

Can you say anything about what their gridiron background was, such as what positions they'd played or at what level?

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, rushend said:

It’s difficult to know whether gridiron players can convert as it hasn’t been tried. Or, to the point, not tried with any conviction. Using Manfred Moore from the 70s and Philippe Gardent  (I think he played 5 games or so for Crusaders?) as examples doesn’t really say much about any potential development or crossover ability. A bit like the Dwain Chambers Castleford ‘experiment’ that lasted pretty much no time at all, there hasn’t been (at least to my knowledge) any concerted effort to develop players from gridiron over a reasonable period of time. And please don’t mention the TWP ‘trials’, again there was no real effort here (if anyone thinks that was a true attempt at converting players then I’m sorry to disappoint you, it wasn’t).

Contrast this to the NFL with their system of developing players from different codes. The one year contract international players can be signed to, with no need to ‘cut’ them  and thus a whole year of training and development with a team. 

And by the way, I knew several players in the 90s who were (good) American Football players who transitioned to rugby league (admittedly Elite One and the old Alliance reserves league) so at a ‘reasonable’ level of League, it has happened before. And no, as ex teammates and even family of mine I won’t name then. 

Until some real effort is placed on giving some players the time to convert (and no, I don’t have the magic answer to that), then we won’t ‘truly’ know if it is possible. 

It isn't just wether it is possible or not , it's the cost involved , start with Union players and you've half a chance at a tenth of the cost , I could have told you the Toronto coach would not be interested in trying to develop players from gridiron , he wasn't interested in developing actual RL players , never has been 

[fighting irish]

1 hour ago, Oxford said:

No, no, no, you haven't got this yet:

We insist on the certainty that we will remain a small sport in a small part of the UK.

Expansion has to take a geological amount of time to happen or it's not realistic but if the benefits don't happen yesterday it's a complete failure.

Everything has to analyzed within an inch of its life for anying negative so it can be ditched as quickly as possible.

These are the TGG commandments which you shall follow and keep in remembrance of yesterday.

Ha ha ha, proper perspicacious that is. More! More! More! 

[krakauer]

40 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So you are agreeing with me , any NA quality RL players will come from union , not gridiron 

Seems to be the plan: http://www.totalrl.com/details-of-ottawa-bid-revealed-including-junior-plans-finances-and-more/

[rushend]

Gubrats, whilst I might not be sure of how much it would ‘cost’ to transition some payers, I do agree that it would be more cost effective to use Union players...the only drawback is that many of the best ‘athletes’ in NA (and in some regards this will mean the best ‘sportsmen’) might not get a chance. And you’re right with the lip service given to the development of NA players in the first year or two with the TWP. Potential players (union, gridiron) would, I’d imagine, need to be ‘hothoused’ for at least a season to upskill/transition. 

Big Picture, the ones (players) I personally knew were either top level euro players and/or Canadian/US Div 1 players. Several primarily linebackers/safeties, one a tight end. Although as others have pointed out most players have played multiple positions. And personally, whilst I can see your point of how defensive players might transition well, I would imagine there are plenty of offensive players who have played enough defence in high school to have plenty of potential. One other note, from memory Gardent led NFL Europe in tackles on year, so whilst he hadn’t gone through the American system was a very efficient player (I understand that total tackles doesnt mean anything in and of itself, but it is quite demonstrative of the trust shown in him by his American coaches - through the amount of games he played, ahead of US nationals).

[westside]

6 minutes ago, rushend said:

Gubrats, whilst I might not be sure of how much it would ‘cost’ to transition some payers, I do agree that it would be more cost effective to use Union players...the only drawback is that many of the best ‘athletes’ in NA (and in some regards this will mean the best ‘sportsmen’) might not get a chance. And you’re almost right with the lip service given to the development of NA players in the first year or two with the TWP. Potential players (union, gridiron) would, I would imagine, need to be ‘hothoused’ for at least a season to upskill/transition. 

Big Picture, the ones (players) I personally knew were either top level euro players and/or Canadian/US Div 1 players. Several primarily linebackers/safeties, one a tight end. Although as others have pointed out most players have played multiple positions. And personally, whilst I can see your point of how defensive players might transition well, I would imagine there are plenty of offensive players who have played enough defence in high school to have plenty of potential. One other note, from memory Gardent led NFL Europe in tackles on year, so whilst he hadn’t gone through the American system was a very efficient player (I understand that total tackles doesnt mean anything in and of itself, but it is quite demonstrative of the trust shown in him by his American coaches - through the amount of games he played, ahead of US nationals).

Great post agree completely.

[CanadianRugger]

8 hours ago, bbfaz said:

Prove it then.

Off you go, do some damned work, rather than sit on a web forum and peddle fantasy.  If the fantasy is reality, show us.  I've said this dozens of times, not a single one of you gets off your asses to prove me wrong.  And I say this as somebody who actually got off his fat ass to prove other people wrong.

Right now, there is no history of players being successfully converted from American/Canadian Football to Rugby League.  The best example is Manfred Moore, who converted in the 70s and didn't last a season.  In 2008, Crusaders got hold of a guy who'd played in NFL Europe as a European development player called Philippe Gardent.  He played a few games but he was not good enough.

Wouldn't there be dozens of examples in Union, given it has a much bigger base and they've been trying to convert players for a couple of decades?  The closest thing in recent years of a player doing it in Union is Nate Ebner, who asked for a leave of absence from the Patriots to play for USA 7s in the last Olympics.  GUESS WHAT!!  He's probably best described as a union-to-American Football convert in the first place, given he was a USA age group standout who was selected for Ohio State as a walk-on and made a career out of it.   The only person who could prove you right actually proves you wrong.

Don't be what Ronda Rousey calls a "DNB" and continue to sit on this forum and peddle fantasy.  If you genuinely live in Southwestern Ontario, you must live in an area where there are any number of people who played hockey and Canadian football at high school, college or (in the case of hockey) junior league level.  There have to be fields around.  A Rugby League field from try-line to try-line is approximately the same as a soccer field, a Canadian football field is longer but narrower, though you'd probably be able to play 13-a-side on either.  I have a version of 6/7-a-side league you can play on a half-sized soccer field which requires no posts.

I'll help anybody who'll genuinely step up to the plate and prove this can be done.

There are dozens of examples in Rugby Union in Canada of successful football converts, here are a couple:

Jeff Hassler: All Canadian Running Back at University of Saskatchewan, Ospreys Rugby, Canada 7s, Canada XVs Pro14 Dream Team

Jason Marshall:  All-Canadian Quarterback at Simon Fraser, drafted to CFL.  Prop Forward Hawkes Bay, Aurillac, SU Agen

Hubert Buydens:  University of Saskatchewan All-Canadian Linebacker, Prop for Canadian National Team, Manawatu Turbos, NOLA

Tevaughn Campbell:  Ex-CFL now NFL Cornerback, also Rugby 7s player for Canada.

Tevaughn Campbell broke the CFL all-time record in the 40 yard dash and literally walked on to the Canada Sevens team.  He had never touched a rugby ball before.  Elite Football players can become rugby players quite easily, the money just needs to be right to actually attract them.

[bbfaz]

I'm going to be nit-picky.

You can have Hassler but even a cursory Google search suggests he played Union as a junior.  If he's fit (and last thing I can find, he'd taken a step back from Ospreays), he's actually somebody who should be targeted to play League with the idea of getting him into the Wolfpack.  Buydens likewise played Union as a junior in Saskatoon.

Jason Marshall is a bit of a stretch, given he never really made it big, ended up going from QB to tighthead prop and retired a few years ago.  A handful of games in the French second tier does not a gamechanger make.  However, he did sign a French second tier contract and given people consider MLR a pro level, I'll say he made it just not big.

Tevaughn Campbell is a pretty impressive athlete with decent numbers for a guy who allegedly "can't cover s***".  It's more of a damning indictment of Canada's sevens setup that he can walk on for them.  If it doesn't work out at the Jets, he'll probably go back to CFL, which I guess everybody agrees is the problem.  Tevaughn will be able to have a career in CFL until his speed fades, pretty much no sweat, which prohibits him from converting.

Still, as I've said, if anybody wants to try on a micro level to create a combine, a camp, a mini-league, ANYTHING, I would offer my help in anyway I can.

[Kayakman]

GOOD WORK...NOW THE MAN HAS BEEN CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN TO BE WRONG IN EVERY RESPECT. ...A GENTLEMAN WOULD NOW FORMALLY APOLOGIZE, ADMIT HIS ERROR, AND ASK OUR  FORGIVENESS.

That is what a real gentleman would do.

[CanadianRugger]

49 minutes ago, bbfaz said:

I'm going to be nit-picky.

You can have Hassler but even a cursory Google search suggests he played Union as a junior.  If he's fit (and last thing I can find, he'd taken a step back from Ospreays), he's actually somebody who should be targeted to play League with the idea of getting him into the Wolfpack.  Buydens likewise played Union as a junior in Saskatoon.

Jason Marshall is a bit of a stretch, given he never really made it big, ended up going from QB to tighthead prop and retired a few years ago.  A handful of games in the French second tier does not a gamechanger make.  However, he did sign a French second tier contract and given people consider MLR a pro level, I'll say he made it just not big.

Tevaughn Campbell is a pretty impressive athlete with decent numbers for a guy who allegedly "can't cover s***".  It's more of a damning indictment of Canada's sevens setup that he can walk on for them.  If it doesn't work out at the Jets, he'll probably go back to CFL, which I guess everybody agrees is the problem.  Tevaughn will be able to have a career in CFL until his speed fades, pretty much no sweat, which prohibits him from converting.

Still, as I've said, if anybody wants to try on a micro level to create a combine, a camp, a mini-league, ANYTHING, I would offer my help in anyway I can.

Hassler played high school rugby, it was never his primary sport though. He walked on to the Sevens team when he got hurt playing CIS Football. I've been playing, watching and following Canadian Rugby Union for 20+ years.  You can talk about any player and I could name them, I even played with a few of them over the years.

Jason Marshall had a good rugby career, he played in the Top14, ProD2 and NPC.  Played in a World Cup and was a strong ball carrier.  He would make a good forward in League.  He was never a rugby player before his football career ended but you can't say a pro career spanning from 2008-2015 in Europe and National is not a success.

Tevaughn Campbell is elite, Damian McGrath, the Canadian Sevens Coach has said that if Tevaughn Campbell is representative of the quality of athlete in Football, than Rugby would be wise to look to that sport for potential recruits.

I hardly think it's an indictment, this is a Sevens side that is well funded and is top 10 in the world,very recently coming sixth overall a few years ago.  

In any case, I could begin naming more players if you like but the point has already been made. 

I would love to see what a player like Paul Lasike could do on a Rugby League pitch. He has been destroying people since leaving the NFL.  He was critical in the US won over Scotland last year.  Their first Six Nations scalp ever btw.

 

 

 

[GUBRATS]

6 hours ago, Kayakman said:

GOOD WORK...NOW THE MAN HAS BEEN CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN TO BE WRONG IN EVERY RESPECT. ...A GENTLEMAN WOULD NOW FORMALLY APOLOGIZE, ADMIT HIS ERROR, AND ASK OUR  FORGIVENESS.

That is what a real gentleman would do.

Who are you referring to K man ?

[Oxford]

While this thead is still here before being cross coded why is everyone concentrating on the irrelevant?

Who cares if Johnny Unitas once played for a Yawn team?

Why would anyone concern themselves with whether or not Yogi Berra once dabbled in kick and clap?

Get a grip! This is all a distraction from the fact that NY is here! And Ottowa are coming to Town!

 

 

 

[Oxford]

 

[The Parksider]

On 16/04/2019 at 23:12, Tommygilf said:

Realistically why on earth should a team in Canada be getting nearly 4x the attendances of a club in the capital of England?

Tommy, you keep raising criteria for NA clubs admittance to the game here that do not exist, The criteria are expand the pro player pool then we can expand SL, and bring new NA TV deals then we can pay the wages. Mate - just stick to the criteria all are agreed on.

On 17/04/2019 at 00:03, fighting irish said:

The nay-sayers in here don't really believe the North Americans will destroy our league. What they really fear is that the Canadians (and the Yanks) will make a success of it, and their tired old, small town clubs just won't be able to compete.

Look we've had three years of this total rubbish often spouted with insults. The Perez TWP plan was for 5-6 north american clubs coming into Superleague because as he said that was the North American content needed to capture a big NA TV deal. That meant as it stands now Leeds, Wigan, London, Fartown, HKR, and Salford going into the Championship. This simply isn't tenable so obviously we need more quality players to accommodate NA clubs so they just have to accept this. AND THE NA CLUBS DO ACCEPT IT. SO grow up.

On 17/04/2019 at 08:36, North but south said:

Do you really think Castleford fans would not renew sky if they went down? And why do you think they would renew if they were replaced by Halifax but wouldn't if it was Toronto? How do you not see how stupid your point is?

It's simply NOT my point. Ever since Lenegan asked Toulouse to get a TV deal the line has been that SKY sell dishes here and the preferred content is therefore clubs here. Replace English clubs with NA clubs who merely sign up the relegated clubs players and put them in American shirts is bound to cause resentment and affect the deal. You need to get out of the tiny bubble that is this site and threads like this and go ask Castleford fans how they would feel if Cas went down, TWP went up and the Cas squad signed for TWP. Again the North Americans ACCEPT THIS and have done ever since Perez's first interview in 2016 when he said he'd get a TV deal.

23 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

 Has anyone approached Mr Perez and consulted him about the successful operations that have been tried by Toronto?   Your Mr Pearson,at a club which 20 years ago required the takeover of another club,has a merged academy.   Way to go...?

TWP are not a successful organisation as they didn't produce one TV deal to share here or one NA SL level player and lose massive amounts of money. Yet another reality denying post that even Mr. Perez disagrees with as he himself set the criteria for success as more players from NA and a TV deal from NA. Hull/HKR remain massively more important to SL than TWP do now. How can we debate anything when such inventions are introduced.

16 hours ago, John WP Fan said:

We just think it will take some time to get this up and running, and we have no issue with our team being made up of players from other countries. I think they could be doing more now, but to expect Canadians in a Championship lineup now is just not realistic.

John, who cares if you have "no issue" mate not me not 100K RL fans here or any chairmen here. Mr. Perez is now himself clear he has to expand the quality pro player pool with NA players and has committed to do so. Fans and Chairmen here have every issue the current Player pool is not transferred to North America. It will just kills things here and WE care about that.

14 hours ago, rushend said:

It’s difficult to know whether gridiron players can convert as it hasn’t been tried. Or, to the point, not tried with any conviction. Until some real effort is placed on giving some players the time to convert (and no, I don’t have the magic answer to that), then we won’t ‘truly’ know if it is possible. 

A couple of years back I said exactly this. Let the North Americans play several seasons in the Championship where they can work at developing players and promoting the game. I said this thinking the Championship clubs would say "No way" but they have said yes, so off we go. Let's have the NA derbies TWP.v.NY, Ottawa.v.TWP and NY.v.Ottawa, lets see grid iron and RU players trialled incessantly. Lets see some of the NA players TWP did have coming back into these teams. Lets have the USARL on board as a development league.

But lets now cut the nonsense of insulting clubs and fans here, and all the Phoney Baloney these North American clubs will save Rugby League here by just been accepted straight into Superleague. Jeez, this site has what 40-50 people discussing this issue with 40 for instant admission to SL for NA clubs as it's a "No brainer", and 10 against as it's "Destructive". Lets not forget 100,000 English fans of SL English clubs with their English TV deal - they deserve that this "Opportunity" for the future is tested at the planning stage, and if it goes through trialled at Championship level, and if the player base in NA rises and a NATV deal is found put the best NA club in SL and build onwards from that. 

[Davo5]

Groundhog Day again.

[Oliver Clothesoff]

One of them crazy people you see in a big city shouting about the end of the world on a megaphone, isn’t he?

[fighting irish]

46 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

John, who cares if you have "no issue" mate not me

Mr. Parksider, its patently obvious that you do care about the views of the (very small) number of people posting on this site, evidenced by the lengthy tirade in your last post.

I imagine, (perhaps we could take a straw poll) that most of the people here simply don't care what you think either. 

I'd be willing to bet, that the only thing that draws a response from them to your posts is your completely unrestrained and totally uncalled-for insults.

You have not brought forward a single suggestion as to how the game can turn the tide of steady decline, and like a lot of others from the ''heartlands'' with a lifetimes experience in the game, your best advice to just sing ''nearer my god to thee'' as the ship goes down.

The content of your arguments is old hat, contain nothing new, just mere repetition and we're all bored to tears with it.

Grow up! 

[dealwithit]

15 hours ago, rushend said:

It’s difficult to know whether gridiron players can convert as it hasn’t been tried. Or, to the point, not tried with any conviction. Using Manfred Moore from the 70s and Philippe Gardent  (I think he played 5 games or so for Crusaders?) as examples doesn’t really say much about any potential development or crossover ability. A bit like the Dwain Chambers Castleford ‘experiment’ that lasted pretty much no time at all, there hasn’t been (at least to my knowledge) any concerted effort to develop players from gridiron over a reasonable period of time. And please don’t mention the TWP ‘trials’, again there was no real effort here (if anyone thinks that was a true attempt at converting players then I’m sorry to disappoint you, it wasn’t).

Contrast this to the NFL with their system of developing players from different codes. The one year contract international players can be signed to, with no need to ‘cut’ them  and thus a whole year of training and development with a team. 

And by the way, I knew several players in the 90s who were (good) American Football players who transitioned to rugby league (admittedly Elite One and the old Alliance reserves league) so at a ‘reasonable’ level of League, it has happened before. And no, as ex teammates and even family of mine I won’t name then. 

Until some real effort is placed on giving some players the time to convert (and no, I don’t have the magic answer to that), then we won’t ‘truly’ know if it is possible. 

They have converted, just not to standout SL level. If they can get to Q Cup/Championship level, then they could get to SL with full time training. 

Ryan Burroughs was an american football player, who transfered to union and then league. Monte Gaddis could have got to SL level if he transitioned earlier. The current Red Star players from america started in american football. 

What is critical is the right coaching from a younger age - say 18-21. You need to break the bad habbits early. There’s a business opportunity for someone there. 

[fighting irish]

The idea that these superb athletes could not become rugby league players with enough time and good coaching is utter nonsense.

(Like I said before) You'd swear they were a load of fat lasses, from the local factory!