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Man of Kent

Championship play-offs

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I  can't imagine the first match up whoever it maybe will make for good viewing in Toronto, win or lose Toronto's opponents know full well that they will in most probability have to go back again to play the final, they may as well send a load of kids and take their chances in the losers semi, it really is a shambles Rimmer has created.

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6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I  can't imagine the first match up whoever it maybe will make for good viewing in Toronto, win or lose Toronto's opponents know full well that they will in most probability have to go back again to play the final, they may as well send a load of kids and take their chances in the losers semi, it really is a shambles Rimmer has created.

Possibly, but if they win that first game in Toronto, won't they have the week off and avoid an elimination game?

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23 minutes ago, ojx said:

Possibly, but if they win that first game in Toronto, won't they have the week off and avoid an elimination game?

Correct, but having a week off is subjective, some say it is better to keep the momentum going, sending a very weakend team to Toronto for the first game would not really be treated as a loss because it would be expected, come the final then Toronto would not have had a meaningful game for 4 weeks from their last game of the *season till the final, that match playing edge could be somewhat lacking.

* I asterisked that comment because the meaningful game could be longer than 4 weeks in Toronto's case, their last regular season League game is at home to Leigh, the talk is if Leigh have secured a top 5 finish before that game takes place they will by no means be sending anything like a full strength team over to Canada for that fixture in fact you may see some amatuer lads who have been drafted in especially for it, so who is going to better prepared for a final, a team who's player's are lacking match conditioning, or any team who is battle hardened, worth thinking about!

Edited by Harry Stottle
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41 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Correct, but having a week off is subjective, some say it is better to keep the momentum going, sending a very weakend team to Toronto for the first game would not really be treated as a loss because it would be expected, come the final then Toronto would not have had a meaningful game for 4 weeks from their last game of the *season till the final, that match playing edge could be somewhat lacking.

* I asterisked that comment because the meaningful game could be longer than 4 weeks in Toronto's case, their last regular season League game is at home to Leigh, the talk is if Leigh have secured a top 5 finish before that game takes place they will by no means be sending anything like a full strength team over to Canada for that fixture in fact you may see some amatuer lads who have been drafted in especially for it, so who is going to better prepared for a final, a team who's player's are lacking match conditioning, or any team who is battle hardened, worth thinking about!

I guess it will depend on Leigh's thinking. However, I am pretty sure they will send their strongest team for the last regular season game, places within the top five are very important too. You seem to be making the assumption that Leigh can easily dispose of all other teams that make the play-offs and then have one big shot at beating Toronto in the final. Toulouse, Fev and York could all turn them over on a given day, especially at home. The top three is a big advantage over 4th and 5th place. 

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9 hours ago, ojx said:

I guess it will depend on Leigh's thinking. However, I am pretty sure they will send their strongest team for the last regular season game, places within the top five are very important too. You seem to be making the assumption that Leigh can easily dispose of all other teams that make the play-offs and then have one big shot at beating Toronto in the final. Toulouse, Fev and York could all turn them over on a given day, especially at home. The top three is a big advantage over 4th and 5th place. 

If you look at the play off schedule, now that Toronto have secured the top spot, finishing in second place could be the poison chalice for any team, finishing 4th seems to be the better option if Toronto are to be avoided, and I was not just referring to Leigh getting to the final that is why my last line included "any team who is battle hardened".

The scenario that I have described could be very real, does any team really fancy their chances of victory twice in 2 weeks travelling Toronto, and it will be twice as difficult for the lads who are part time, all the teams you mention would have a better chance in a one off encounter with Toronto, and that is very easy to be fabricated by any club doing exactly as I say and sending a very much weakened team for the first encounter, and they can be ably assisted by Leigh if they send over a 'reserves' for the last league game, as I said 5 weeks without a competitive game which could befall Toronto before the final is not good preperation at all, it will be like starting the season over again, albeit Toronto won all but one of their early season encounters they were taken close to the wire on a few occasions till they gathered their momentum, that form could repeat itself with 5 weeks without a competitive game especially for the older guy's which Toronto have quite a few being that after stopping/slowing down it is all that harder to get going again, any athlete knows that, all the while their opposition will be far better prepared to meet Toronto than earlier in the season, dismiss it if you wish, but as I said it is worth a thought!............................................Especially for the opposition coaches.

Edited by Harry Stottle
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The system is badly flawed as it uses league position to determine home team throughout the rounds. It's a no brainer for team 2 to lose the first match as they also get an extra match and thereby extra income. League position should only give home advantage in  the first round, after that if teams meet again the winner of the previous match should have home advantage.

It may well end up with neither toronto nor ANOther wanting to win the first match!?! We could be heading for the most farcical match ever....

Edited by Nearenough
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And in my opinion all down to Ralphy Rimmer running scared of a Neutral venue final should Toronto and Tolouse be the finalist, brought about by the Catalan following (or lack of it) for the Wembley showpiece last season.

Really, if we are going to embrace these teams from overseas into our league structure and cup competitions some thought really needs putting into the format for our 'prestige games' this situation in the Championship is really like the tail wagging the dog, the two overseas Championship clubs chose not to take part in our premier cup conpetition most probably because of the unscheduled (draw) travelling involved, but the RFL very well could be making a team play one weekend then having to arrange at short notice to play in Canada the next weekend.

Next season should Toronto gain promotion will be very interesting, will SL clubs put up with some teams having to travel whilst others won't because of the weather scheduling, will they be allowed to refuse entry to the cup,  what will happen come the play offs should they get there? Interesting times ahead watching it all unfold.

Edited by Harry Stottle

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

And in my opinion all down to Ralphy Rimmer running scared of a Neutral venue final should Toronto and Tolouse be the finalist, brought about by the Catalan following (or lack of it) for the Wembley showpiece last season.

Really, if we are going to embrace these teams from overseas into our league structure and cup competitions some thought really needs putting into the format for our 'prestige games' this situation in the Championship is really like the tail wagging the dog, the two overseas Championship clubs chose not to take part in our premier cup conpetition most probably because of the unscheduled (draw) travelling involved, but the RFL very well could be making a team play one weekend then having to arrange at short notice to play in Canada the next weekend.

Next season should Toronto gain promotion will be very interesting, will SL clubs put up with some teams having to travel whilst others won't because of the weather scheduling, will they be allowed to refuse entry to the cup,  what will happen come the play offs should they get there? Interesting times ahead watching it all unfold.

The first part I totally agree with. They don't want a championship final in the UK between potentially a Canadian and a French team.

The rest is frankly a lot of anti-Toronto prejudice though Harry and has been refuted several times on here. They chose not to take part in the cup as they (along with Toulouse and Catalans) were asked to lodge a Half-a-Million pound bond to do so - perfectly reasonable. They have appeared in the cup before and have said repeatedly (most recently on Backchat last Thursday) that they would love to be part of it again. 

Their advantages to being at home are logically just as much disadvantages to them being away. Also, London went there at a weeks notice for the Million Pound Game last year, why couldn't St Helens or Hull? As for their 'on the road games'. How many other teams would accept having to play 3 'home games' a year away from home because the rest of the league couldn't schedule a summer sport into the summer calendar? 

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As York fans we have been having this exact discussion. Its difficult to know what to do. I can see Toronto resting a few over the next few weeks but surely better to enter playoffs slightly rested but on winning momentum? Whilst 3rd place potentially might be about the best you can get in terms of guaranteeing a 2nd playoff game but not having too far to travel. The 2 playoff games is definitely better for income, in terms of gate money etc. Out of the 5 teams currently in the playoff places realistically Toronto and Toulouse (presuming stadium move goes through) are in a position to be Super League now. With playing Squad, facilities and overall product.

York and Featherstone wouldn't be as both us and Fev are part time and transformation if promoted would be massive! Leigh potentially with some adjustments could get there in time but would be a struggle. The final playoff game is 6th October with the first game of 2019 played 24th February presuming this is the same it will give you 20 weeks to have a competitive squad and set-up for Super League. When you also factor in time off for players, international fixtures and Christmas break it doesn't give a long time to be ready.

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3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

The first part I totally agree with. They don't want a championship final in the UK between potentially a Canadian and a French team.

The rest is frankly a lot of anti-Toronto prejudice though Harry and has been refuted several times on here. They chose not to take part in the cup as they (along with Toulouse and Catalans) were asked to lodge a Half-a-Million pound bond to do so - perfectly reasonable. They have appeared in the cup before and have said repeatedly (most recently on Backchat last Thursday) that they would love to be part of it again. 

Their advantages to being at home are logically just as much disadvantages to them being away. Also, London went there at a weeks notice for the Million Pound Game last year, why couldn't St Helens or Hull? As for their 'on the road games'. How many other teams would accept having to play 3 'home games' a year away from home because the rest of the league couldn't schedule a summer sport into the summer calendar? 

Hi Tommy, thanks for your reply and input.

If my words have come over as anti-Toronto prejudice then I apologise it wasn't meant to do.

You have the better of me re the Back Chat programme I did not see it, being that they say they wish to take part in the future Challenge Cup's was it mentioned if the bond was to be lifted? I also think it is 'perfectly reasonable' as I understand it the bond would only come into play should one of the chargeable teams reaches Wembley and doesn't contribute sufficiently to the crowd number's, RL is a buisness and Wembley is one of the major contributors to the coffers and I imagine is relied upon to return a good profit.

I can understand what you mean by the disadvantages of Toronto being home or away,  I know a few of the guy's who have played for Toronto personally and I used to joke with them about whether they were playing at home by leaving their abode, or playing away and staying at 'home' in their own beds!

The other questions I posed are born from snippets of information we are hearing from some SL chairs, if you believe that SL will readily accept the same format that both Championship divisions have played ìn then that is your prerogative, personally I think it will take some discussions to sort out and there may have to be some concessions given both ways. Are Toronto still going to pay for travel and accomodation costs for SL teams? I honestly don't know the answer to that, but I should imagine each club would want to take more players and backroom staff than the Championship clubs did and arrive sooner and stay for a longer period in game preperation time, therefore should it impact on the coffers of SL clubs then that may also be a point of concern for some of the clubs.

I am not being predudice against Toronto, the Championship play-off format is not of their doing as I have said before I think it stinks, it is the RFL my anger is vented at but as I have eluded to in previous posts it may sting Toronto on the ariss subject to how their opposition treats the comp, and should they be promoted to SL then the questions I am posing may very well be eclipsed by questions that have not yet surfaced as I say interesting times ahead.

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8 minutes ago, HarrogateKnights said:

I can see Toronto resting a few over the next few weeks 

Martin Vickers was actually asked about this on 'Back Chat' last week and said that Brian McDermott wasn't going to be doing that, the phrase used was they 'won't take the foot off the gas'. 

However, they (TWP) do have a few injuries right now - so they are actually playing a bit of a 'weak' (it's all relative of course) team right now anyway, and will have some first-choice players to come back fresh in coming weeks

8 minutes ago, HarrogateKnights said:

York and Featherstone wouldn't be as both us and Fev are part time and transformation if promoted would be massive! Leigh potentially with some adjustments could get there in time but would be a struggle. 

I thought Leigh were now totally part-time? That's what their supporters on here keep saying at any rate. I think it's clear that, should Leigh get promoted (I don't think they will) they'd need an almost totally new team for SL.

Edited by paulwalker71
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1 minute ago, paulwalker71 said:

I thought Leigh were now totally part-time? That's what their supporters on here keep saying at any rate. I think it's clear that, should Leigh get promoted (I don't think they will) they'd need an almost totally new team for SL.

Yeah Leigh are part-time but with their past experience of Super League and stadium etc the most likely to be able to turn it around in time. If they managed to gain promotion if that makes sense

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6 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

Martin Vickers was actually asked about this on 'Back Chat' last week and said that Brian McDermott wasn't going to be doing that, the phrase used was they 'won't take the foot off the gas'. 

However, they (TWP) do have a few injuries right now - so they are actually playing a bit of a 'weak' (it's all relative of course) team right now anyway, and will have some first-choice players to come back fresh in coming weeks

I thought Leigh were now totally part-time? That's what their supporters on here keep saying at any rate. I think it's clear that, should Leigh get promoted (I don't think they will) they'd need an almost totally new team for SL.

Which team from the Championship would you exclude from a massive change in personnel to make any impact on SL even if only to avoid the relegation battle, in my opinion only a switch to a closed shop will save any promoted team if tgey stay with tge same roster they have now.

PS, I don't think they will get promoted either. 

Edited by Harry Stottle
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4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Which team from the Championship would you exclude from a massive change in personnel to make any impact on SL even if only to avoid the relegation battle, in my opinion only a switch to a closed shop will save any promoted team if tgey stay with tge same roster they have now.

PS, I don't think they will get promoted either. 

I think to have a chance of promotion you need to have the logistics side of your business so you need the stadium facilities now. I also think you need to have a full time playing squad as realistically signing 23 or so players even if they are on part-time contracts with you already wont be easy as some players play at Part-Time Championship level due to out of rugby business interests etc. So you end up desperate which wont help with dealing with agents and players.

Until you have the above as a minimum then I think you can give it a real good go. 

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6 minutes ago, HarrogateKnights said:

I think to have a chance of promotion you need to have the logistics side of your business so you need the stadium facilities now. I also think you need to have a full time playing squad as realistically signing 23 or so players even if they are on part-time contracts with you already wont be easy as some players play at Part-Time Championship level due to out of rugby business interests etc. So you end up desperate which wont help with dealing with agents and players.

Until you have the above as a minimum then I think you can give it a real good go. 

Yes but only if the right quality player's are available, with the time scales you point out and knowing you have been promoted (the final game) only then will most clubs be in a position to offer and afford contracts, and as I said, will they be available, only those no one else wants or the relegated team will be the player's looking for a new club, tge player's themselves will want a contract in place for next season before the 6th October.

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23 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Which team from the Championship would you exclude from a massive change in personnel to make any impact on SL even if only to avoid the relegation battle, in my opinion only a switch to a closed shop will save any promoted team if tgey stay with tge same roster they have now.

PS, I don't think they will get promoted either. 

Yes, every team would need wholesale squad changes - even Toronto

The difference is that Toronto have the money to pay the big money that agents / players would be demanding knowing that the promoted club need players. They can also fish in the NRL pool and buy in some big names on fat contracts.

After Leigh's experience with all of that last time I really wouldn't want to see Degsy go down that particular path once again!

I'm a bit like you HS, I really don't want my club (Bulls) to be getting promoted at the moment. We'd only end up back in Admin again. Fortunately, we most likely aren't even going to the mix anyway, so it's a moot point!

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Although beneficial for the extra income at the end of the season. It would make sense next season scrapping the playoffs in turn for a straight up, straight down system. 1 up 1 down etc. Could then have scope to have spare weekends for 1895 cup rather than mid weeks and finish the season in mid-late September 

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Least in this situation with the overseas clubs it makes it fairer on fans. I am going to Toronto the week after next but couldnt afford to go twice more in the playoffs by 6th October and can only imagine a handful of York fans/sponsors that could without financial assistance. If as league champions Toronto were already promoted it would allow them to prepare for Super League now also allow Championship clubs to prepare contracts and budgets for next season 

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25 minutes ago, HarrogateKnights said:

Although beneficial for the extra income at the end of the season. It would make sense next season scrapping the playoffs in turn for a straight up, straight down system. 1 up 1 down etc. Could then have scope to have spare weekends for 1895 cup rather than mid weeks and finish the season in mid-late September 

Need to drop the Summer Bash in that case 

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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

Need to drop the Summer Bash in that case 

For me I would still keep the summer bash as a regular round or cup round. It is a unique concept to rugby league with magic weekend 

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5 minutes ago, HarrogateKnights said:

For me I would still keep the summer bash as a regular round or cup round. It is a unique concept to rugby league with magic weekend 

As a regular round it skews the season , and you can't really guarantee an all Championship round unless you mess about with the Challenge cup 

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12 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

As a regular round it skews the season , and you can't really guarantee an all Championship round unless you mess about with the Challenge cup 

Fair one makes sense, it could be done as one of the 1895 cup rounds like the last 16. So you have 4 games on the Saturday and 4 on Sunday. Structure it in a way that you have invited teams from League 1 to make the 16. 

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