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Eddie

Who would you choose to be relegated from SL?

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1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

Harry might be right or wrong , there is only one way to find out , if he's is right , then probably any damage wouldn't be repairable 

And by the same argument, if he's wrong then any 'damage' would be repairable.

3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

It isn't necessarily that the youngsters start playing for Leigh , they already go to Wigan,Wire and Saints via their scholarships and academies , just that overall less would get early exposure to the sport 

Why? It isn't like kids growing up in Birmingham who have no idea what rugby league is. As you say, they have big SL clubs already on their doorsteps that the best players already gravitate to.

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3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Like ?

A 9th place finish, socio-economic problems, opposition (in terms of fanbase size, locality, etc) and relations between club and fanbase (of which I’m not aware at Leigh during 09-12 but this can certainly effect a clubs attendance). 

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1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

OK Ollie, as I said it is a personal interpretation, please for the benefit of discussion how do you see the sport developing if it returns to a closed shop and funding to clubs below SL is no more, I am quite happy to say I think it will devastate the game, as you have already stated you consider it to be a positive step and way forward, tell me why and how please.

Where have I said any of that? You interpret a lot, don’t you? 

I don’t see how the game can continue funding near on 40 sides, that’s not me saying that I think a closed shop is better or a step forward. 

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Just now, Oliver Clothesoff said:

A 9th place finish, socio-economic problems, opposition (in terms of fanbase size, locality, etc) and relations between club and fanbase (of which I’m not aware at Leigh during 09-12 but this can certainly effect a clubs attendance). 

We had just moved into a brand new state of the art ( built specifically for SL ) stadium , we had Arthur Thomas ( former director of Wigan and Chairman of St Helens ,) as chairman who was providing significant investment into the team and coaching staff ( Arthur was widely respected and indeed loved in the town partly due to decades of support of all 3 amateur rugby clubs ) , attendances rose to around 2,600 , 5 years after being refused a licence we were down around 1,400 

Immediately a return to promotion via on pitch returned they jumped back up 

The whole feeling changed 

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1 minute ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Where have I said any of that? You interpret a lot, don’t you? 

I don’t see how the game can continue funding near on 40 sides, that’s not me saying that I think a closed shop is better or a step forward. 

Have you not said that you are in favour of a closed shop in previous posts?

If not I apologize, but please tell are you in favour of reverting back to licencing or whatever we refer to it as, if so and you in a round about way you are favouring a witholding of funding, tell me your vision of such an action.

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Anyway this is a thread about who might be coming down this year , not what might or might not be happening next year , so I'm out 

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Just now, GUBRATS said:

Anyway this is a thread about who might be coming down this year , not what might or might not be happening next year , so I'm out 

I have not answered what this thread is about I consider it being akin to a morbid curiosity like swan neckers on a motorway, I was dragged in when as most threads it took a different direction.

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10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Have you not said that you are in favour of a closed shop in previous posts?

If not I apologize, but please tell are you in favour of reverting back to licencing or whatever we refer to it as, if so and you in a round about way you are favouring a witholding of funding, tell me your vision of such an action.

I can see positives and negatives to a closed shop and I can see positives and negatives to a continuation of promotion and relegation. 

I don’t have a crystal ball and I don’t know what’s best, nobody actually does IMO, however, whatever we go with has to be part of a long-term plan that sees the game looking beyond 3-5 years, as is normal for a structure change. Though, I won’t hold my breath on that. 

I will say though that I do feel uneasy giving lower league clubs (and some Super League clubs) funding when many offer very little to the game in terms of a player pathway. Many don’t have Academies and the game as a whole are not getting players from Dewsbury Rams or Swinton Lions, it’s your Dewsbury Celtic’s and Siddal’s where players are reared and I’ve always thought these clubs should get more financial “reward” for this. 

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4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I have not answered what this thread is about I consider it being akin to a morbid curiosity like swan neckers on a motorway, I was dragged in when as most threads it took a different direction.

Me too Harry , as I put , " whoever finishes bottom " as they will deserve it , apparently Ollie's just replied again , so again , done 

Edited by GUBRATS

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4 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I can see positives and negatives to a closed shop and I can see positives and negatives to a continuation of promotion and relegation. 

I don’t have a crystal ball and I don’t know what’s best, nobody actually does IMO, however, whatever we go with has to be part of a long-term plan that sees the game looking beyond 3-5 years, as is normal for a structure change. Though, I won’t hold my breath on that. 

I will say though that I do feel uneasy giving lower league clubs (and some Super League clubs) funding when many offer very little to the game in terms of a player pathway. Many don’t have Academies and the game as a whole are not getting players from Dewsbury Rams or Swinton Lions, it’s your Dewsbury Celtic’s and Siddal’s where players are reared and I’ve always thought these clubs should get more financial “reward” for this. 

So anybody that doesn't have an academy is ' worthless ' to the sport ? 

Looks like you'll be going the same as those others ( is there a limit on ignored posters ? ) 

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2 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I can see positives and negatives to a closed shop and I can see positives and negatives to a continuation of promotion and relegation. 

I don’t have a crystal ball and I don’t know what’s best, nobody actually does IMO, however, whatever we go with has to be part of a long-term plan that sees the game looking beyond 3-5 years, as is normal for a structure change. Though, I won’t hold my breath on that. 

I will say though that I do feel uneasy giving lower league clubs (and some Super League clubs) funding when many offer very little to the game in terms of a player pathway. Many don’t have Academies and the game as a whole are not getting players from Dewsbury Rams or Swinton Lions, it’s your Dewsbury Celtic’s and Siddal’s where players are reared and I’ve always thought these clubs should get more financial “reward” for this. 

Thanks for the answer, that is my fear in towns like Dewsbury and Halifax look at how many Amatuer clubs have been lost in thes areas in the last 20 or so years, you are quite correct these and other places like them are in need of a big cash injection, do you honestly think that would come from SL clubs, In my experience the SL clubs take kids from these places and don't even recognise what the clubs and armies of unpaid volunteers have done in the nurturing of the young talent they take, at one time they would give a donation to the clubs, not to much I believe these day's.

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8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Thanks for the answer, that is my fear in towns like Dewsbury and Halifax look at how many Amatuer clubs have been lost in thes areas in the last 20 or so years, you are quite correct these and other places like them are in need of a big cash injection, do you honestly think that would come from SL clubs, In my experience the SL clubs take kids from these places and don't even recognise what the clubs and armies of unpaid volunteers have done in the nurturing of the young talent they take, at one time they would give a donation to the clubs, not to much I believe these day's.

In my opinion (sorry for jumping in here Harry) the only way a closed shop would work is of it got rid of the academy/reserves league and utilized a farm system, associating current clubs with a SL team effectively turning champ and league one teams into reserve and academies.  However while that might work (or atleast be the least damaging to the lower teams in a closed shop scenerio) I much prefer p&r.  I think it's exciting.

On thread topic: who do I want relegated? No one really, don't wanna wish it upon someone, but it's gotta happen!

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12 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

In my opinion (sorry for jumping in here Harry) the only way a closed shop would work is of it got rid of the academy/reserves league and utilized a farm system, associating current clubs with a SL team effectively turning champ and league one teams into reserve and academies.  However while that might work (or atleast be the least damaging to the lower teams in a closed shop scenerio) I much prefer p&r.  I think it's exciting.

On thread topic: who do I want relegated? No one really, don't wanna wish it upon someone, but it's gotta happen!

Oh , sod it , it's now a P and R v Licencing thread 

So tell me in what way would reducing the lower tiers to academies and reserves be less damaging ? , Do you really think anybody would turn up to watch them ?

Edited by GUBRATS
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1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

Oh , did it , it's now a P and R v Licencing thread 

So tell me in what way would reducing the lower tiers to academies and reserves be less damaging ? , Do you really think anybody would turn up to watch them ?

(Yeah the last many posts went this way, hence why I commented to it)

Well in most farm systems the financial accountability go to the affiliated team, so the SL teams would have incentive for them to be commercially viable (they pay for it)

People go watch the AHL and the NBA G League, people go to PL2 games.  Again though, I don't want a closed shop. But if it went closed shop that would be, in my opinion, the least damaging.

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2 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

(Yeah the last many posts went this way, hence why I commented to it)

Well in most farm systems the financial accountability go to the affiliated team, so the SL teams would have incentive for them to be commercially viable (they pay for it)

People go watch the AHL and the NBA G League, people go to PL2 games.  Again though, I don't want a closed shop. But if it went closed shop that would be, in my opinion, the least damaging.

Not sure what it’s like in North America but I’m pretty sure in this country, in any sport, people wouldn’t go to watch their team if they became some farm club. I certainly wouldn’t. 

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9 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

(Yeah the last many posts went this way, hence why I commented to it)

Well in most farm systems the financial accountability go to the affiliated team, so the SL teams would have incentive for them to be commercially viable (they pay for it)

People go watch the AHL and the NBA G League, people go to PL2 games.  Again though, I don't want a closed shop. But if it went closed shop that would be, in my opinion, the least damaging.

I recall you saying you've been to the LSV , but it wasn't very full , well if it was Wigan or Wires reserve team , then you'd see it empty , LRL club would cease to exist 

Edited by GUBRATS
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There is essentially a reason I don't go on the NRL board on this site , it's primarily because I haven't a clue about the NRL , it's players , it's structures , it's clubs , it's supporters , it's finances , certainly not enough to pass judgement , I have occasionally posted about it on here but always put in a disclaimer saying I am happy to be corrected due to my limited knowledge 

However it seems on here we have all and sundry from all over the world who despite knowing next to nothing about the subjects being discussed believe they are experts on the them , bloody wonderful , where's that ignore button again ?

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20 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

I recall you saying you've been to the LSV , but it wasn't very full ( sorry if that wasn't you , my mistake ) well if it was Wigan or Wires reserve team , then you'd see it empty , LRL club would cease to exist 

It wasn't full yeah that was me (good memory!).  

If the league goes closed shop and Leigh were outside the shop people wouldn't go any way right(that's the vibe I get on here).  The Leigh Centurions (a farm team of whoever) would still exist.  Would the fan base change? Yes definitely. I think it would still be more successful then their existence as a separate entity in a closed shop otherwise.  The NRL have a similar system don't they (I'm not too familiar with how their leagues work).  If the rfl championship can still exist in a closed shop - outside of SL altogether - sl will poach all the talent without having financial commitment.

Again - and I can't stress this enough - I want the leagues to maintain promotion and relegation, with Leigh having the ability to complete at the highest level of they earn it.  I believe it to be the most interesting structure

Edited by TboneFromTO

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2 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

It wasn't full yeah that was me (good memory!).  

If the league goes closed shop and Leigh were outside the shop people wouldn't go any way right(that's the vibe I get on here).  The Leigh Centurions (a farm team of whoever) would still exist.  Would the fan base change? Yes definitely. I think it would still be more successful then their existence as a separate entity in a closed shop otherwise.  The NRL have a similar system don't they (I'm not too familiar with how their leagues work).  If the rfl championship can still exist in a closed shop - outside of SL altogether - sl will poach all the talent without having financial commitment.

Again - and I can't stress this enough - I want the leagues to maintain promotion and relegation, with Leigh having the ability to complete at the highest level of they earn it.  I believe it to be the most interesting

Yes the Championship as a comp would exist , but nobody would bother watching it , nobody watches the comp in Australia ( relatively speaking ) bottom line is , as I've just posted , you have little if any understanding of the sport , its culture , it's history , so why do you think you know what would happen ?

Clueless

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6 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

 

Again - and I can't stress this enough - I want the leagues to maintain promotion and relegation, with Leigh having the ability to complete at the highest level of they earn it.  I believe it to be the most interesting structure

Excellent , and conversely all the clubs in SL having the potential to drop down , all of them 

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Giants seem to be favourite for everyone to be cast aside to bring in a different team, New York maybe?

 

Reason poor attendances (Giants averaged more than both Wakey and Salford last year (3000 more than Salford!!)

They offer nothing to RL however played more homegrown youngsters last season than any other SL team!!

The Giants fans are all hero's, its so so easy to follow a team who have and are winning stuff but not so a team that last won a major trophy over 50 years ago!!!

Have a look at pictures of Fartown in the early days when Huddersfield were succesful and you will see a proper crowd.

Poor atmosphere, went to Warrington, Hull, Wigan, Saints, Leeds, Wakey and many more last season and if booing and begging for penalties is the atmosphere your after your welcome to it. Give me a cowbell and proper unblinkered rugby fans everyday of the week. 

The sleeping Giant (birthplace of the game) will awaken in the not so distant future, mark my words 

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I have always thought the North American junior-farm-club system would be perfect for RFL.

So, not a snowballs chance of it ever happening...

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I am not a fan of p.and r  I think it's a ridiculous system 

However the last time frnxhasing was tried there was a small of death about the non sl clubs

As.people say many current sl clubs were bad previously 

The beat solution is what we had before 

Ringfince certain teams from relegation that are crucial.to the sport 

And have p and r for heartland teams 

If Widnes come.in to replace wakey your getting very similar.clubs in terms of crowds or finances 

Applying p and r to Catalans or Toronto is just stupid.  I'd also give Salford and London immunity as well

This would also allow Ottowa and toulose to be fast tracked into sl

Edited by aj1908
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On 05/01/2020 at 22:49, Oliver Clothesoff said:

I’ll put a tin hat on here but I’m not convinced that relegation has a place in the modern game of Rugby League, I don’t think we’re in a position as a sport to be relegating sides each year, so I don’t really want anyone to get relegated. I don’t think relegation from Super League particularly helps any side, especially this year. 

That said, we have relegation and I think that Hull KR, Huddersfield and Wakefield are probably in most danger with Toronto and Salford needing to keep an eye on what’s beneath them. 

Rugby League in England isn't big enough to sustain P&R in the modern sports environment. These days you can live stream pretty much any sport/competition on the planet from your own lounge room, what incentive is there for fans to be 'loyal' to a relegated club? Why would these people watch 2nd tier sport when they have hundreds of 1st tier comps at the click of their finger, let alone all other non-sport activities.

Blind loyalty is a dying trend.

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