The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Lowdesert]

Just now, Man of Kent said:

High, I reckon. It’s a comp that gives sponsorship away for free pizza. 

Whether they are accepted as a full member with TV money, not so sure. They may be put on the naughty step for a while. 

 

My thoughts also as you were posting.

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

North American guy to be presented to SL in the next 2 weeks.  Will cover existing liabilities.  

Odds on being accepted anyone?

"Will cover existing liabilities"

Can't wait to see the finer details of the presentation.

[Adelaide Tiger]

56 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So you'd be happy cutting clubs that don't or cannot find that investment ?

Who said anything about cutting clubs .... I certainly didn’t!

I was agreeing with you about putting clubs from outside the UK that can demonstrate strong financial backing with a financial plan that has to pass much more stringent criteria than at present directly into SL

Since 1996, the game has continued with criteria that rewards mediocrity rather than setting challenging targets for clubs because it makes clubs, like my club Cas, feel secure and doesn’t put any pressure on them to move forward which in turn holds the game back.

IMHO if TWP had been parachuted into SL In Year 1 - with correct due diligence and caveats where necessary and even to forego SKY money or be forced to invest their share into developing a grass roots competition in their city or area - and had the full and positive support of the Governing Body and of each SL club then it just might (note I always use the words like might, may, possibly, could etc) have sent an incredibly positive signal to other potential investors to look at Investing in the game by establishing new entities or even investing in the club in the town of their birth.  Because believe it or not, multi-millionaires have been born in RL towns.

But RL/SL treat such multi-millionaires with contempt.  In the business world these people become multi-millionaires because they see an opportunity and go for it.  But in RL we have small minded people who have no shame in saying to multi-millionaires “We do not care how successful you are in the business world; or what ideas you might bring to our game; or how you being involved in a club at the top level may encourage other like minded investors; you have to shut up and start in the third tier by playing amateurs.  And, bear in mind that if your team blast away the opposition and start attracting attendances comparable or better than those in SL you will make enemies”.

Gubrats I also agree with you about exemption from relegation.

There is no reason why we cannot expand the number of teams in SL over the next few years and still have P&R between 10 or 11 UK teams.  Therefore you retain the romantic notion that teams like Coventry Bears or South Wales could attain SL.  If the game can clearly demonstrate that it is creating a new era, than preserving the status quo, then the product may attract more money from the likes of SKY and/or other competitors/sponsors which in turn could go to Development Officers, grass roots before it goes to SL clubs.

At present RL is a small time sport with exceptional athletes and a fantastic product on the field.  It is a crying shame that the key people within the game would rather act as a cosy boys club than pioneering leaders. 

 

[Dave T]

Just now, Adelaide Tiger said:

Who said anything about cutting clubs .... I certainly didn’t!

I was agreeing with you about putting clubs from outside the UK that can demonstrate strong financial backing with a financial plan that has to pass much more stringent criteria than at present directly into SL

Since 1996, the game has continued with criteria that rewards mediocrity rather than setting challenging targets for clubs because it makes clubs, like my club Cas, feel secure and doesn’t put any pressure on them to move forward which in turn holds the game back.

IMHO if TWP had been parachuted into SL In Year 1 - with correct due diligence and caveats where necessary and even to forego SKY money or be forced to invest their share into developing a grass roots competition in their city or area - and had the full and positive support of the Governing Body and of each SL club then it just might (note I always use the words like might, may, possibly, could etc) have sent an incredibly positive signal to other potential investors to look at Investing in the game by establishing new entities or even investing in the club in the town of their birth.  Because believe it or not, multi-millionaires have been born in RL towns.

But RL/SL treat such multi-millionaires with contempt.  In the business world these people become multi-millionaires because they see an opportunity and go for it.  But in RL we have small minded people who have no shame in saying to multi-millionaires “We do not care how successful you are in the business world; or what ideas you might bring to our game; or how you being involved in a club at the top level may encourage other like minded investors; you have to shut up and start in the third tier by playing amateurs.  And, bear in mind that if your team blast away the opposition and start attracting attendances comparable or better than those in SL you will make enemies”.

Gubrats I also agree with you about exemption from relegation.

There is no reason why we cannot expand the number of teams in SL over the next few years and still have P&R between 10 or 11 UK teams.  Therefore you retain the romantic notion that teams like Coventry Bears or South Wales could attain SL.  If the game can clearly demonstrate that it is creating a new era, than preserving the status quo, then the product may attract more money from the likes of SKY and/or other competitors/sponsors which in turn could go to Development Officers, grass roots before it goes to SL clubs.

At present RL is a small time sport with exceptional athletes and a fantastic product on the field.  It is a crying shame that the key people within the game would rather act as a cosy boys club than pioneering leaders. 

 

I think it would have been a hell of a gamble to put a team from Toronto immediately in Super League.

What would that decision be based on? It simply can't just be based on a rich bloke wants a plaything. While you refer to the game as tinpot, that decision would be as tinpot as it comes.

[Tommygilf]

Ricky Leutele is at Melbourne

[Harry Stottle]

20 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Ricky Leutele is at Melbourne

Yes and.........

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes and.........

He was at the Wolfpack? 

[Adelaide Tiger]

46 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think it would have been a hell of a gamble to put a team from Toronto immediately in Super League.

What would that decision be based on? It simply can't just be based on a rich bloke wants a plaything. While you refer to the game as tinpot, that decision would be as tinpot as it comes.

Dave T, I agree that it would have been a gamble and I also agree that you cannot accept a team purely based on a rich bloke.  That is why I clearly stated in my post that the RFL/SL need to have to robust list of criteria that Toronto or others have to meet.

It is not up to me to create a list of criteria.  But surely a professional organisation that was well aware of David Argylle’s intention to create a team could, no make that should, have taken the opportunity to create a list with non-negotiable and caveats that protected the game.  Then all parties could have got around the table, forensically go through the Business Plan and then be able to make a rational decision as to which division Toronto should compete in.

P.S. The decision that was made was IMHO a tinpot decision

P.P.S. I referred to the leaders of the game as being small minded, not the product or players. 

 

[Lowdesert]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

"Will cover existing liabilities"

Can't wait to see the finer details of the presentation.

Don't get overboard with it Harry.  What I mean is he will cover the outstanding wages.  I think that has yet to be finalised. Interesting topic, paying wages though.  Just going from the Bob Hunter piece.

If there is a presentation, then I will imagine it will go to a vote, which could end up being a tie as there will be 10 clubs - unless they ask Catalans to vote on it, or will McManus be allowed 2 votes?  Or even Derek Beaumont, as an impartial?  Maybe 'sweaty craic' can advise?

[Dave T]

47 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Dave T, I agree that it would have been a gamble and I also agree that you cannot accept a team purely based on a rich bloke.  That is why I clearly stated in my post that the RFL/SL need to have to robust list of criteria that Toronto or others have to meet.

It is not up to me to create a list of criteria.  But surely a professional organisation that was well aware of David Argylle’s intention to create a team could, no make that should, have taken the opportunity to create a list with non-negotiable and caveats that protected the game.  Then all parties could have got around the table, forensically go through the Business Plan and then be able to make a rational decision as to which division Toronto should compete in.

P.S. The decision that was made was IMHO a tinpot decision

P.P.S. I referred to the leaders of the game as being small minded, not the product or players. 

 

I think it would be very difficult for TWP to have been put straight into SL under any kind of criteria. There was literally no evidence that it would be anything other than a failure. The decision for them to progress through the ranks allowed them to prove that they could setup and run a Rugby club and make the extremely challenging logistics work. Even after four years there are still many mistakes and things to learn. I don't think you test those things in the top league. 

At the start of this project TWP weren't a thing. There was very very little history of RL there, no foundations, no fanbase. Literally all there was was a rich man. Now I am not being dismissive of that, as often other clubs have the other things but no rich backer, but under any criteria it would be difficult to argue that TWP were an SL club 4 years ago. 

Under any criteria TWP would probably have had plenty of crosses against them. 

Ironically though, I think the positives that TWP have shown may help others be accepted in future, as we have seen that with the right level of investment a fanbase can be created, even in virgin territory.

[redjonn]

4 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

I agree with all of that.  But as you say it would boil down to SL club owners and that is where the problem lies.  Too many SL clubs owners are too focussed on just keeping their club going rather than supporting the bigger picture which MAY bring extra money and investment into the game in the longer term.

It all reminds me of the tv series The Hotel Inspector.  The hotel is failing, it is losing money, so the owners cut corners and hey presto they lose even more money but they are clinging on to their business by their fingertips so they cut more corners. The presenter points out the folly of this strategy and encourages the owners to invest and possibly become a successful business.  The key word here is ‘possibly’ because there are no guarantees but as viewers we clearly see that a change in strategy is the only rational way forward to having a long term chance of survival.

I have always supported putting clubs, either new entities like TWP or existing clubs that have/attract an extremely rich backer, direct into SL with caveats.  As a cash starved sport the powers that be thinks it is a great idea to say to an investor who has $30 million ‘Sorry me old mucker, we know that you can build an RL powerhouse but the existing clubs, some of which are clinging to survive do not like it.  So you can start by playing in against semi-pro/amateur teams in the bottom tier and within a few years we may think of accepting you  ..... Oh, by the way would you like to sponsor SL in the mean time’.  Absolutely ludicrous.

Maybe... but could those SL owners whom in your opinion don't see the big picture just maybe see a clearer big picture which says expansion into NA at this stage don't make any strategic sense...

I guess those clinging to survive will disappear from SL if in the long term we have more NA clubs... not so sure how the sport in this country or France will benefit overall.

The problem with the likes of my self is I don't see the strategic plan as to where effort, resources, money for expansion should be invested.  As for sure as already reading many want money to be given to Toronto and I guess any other NA club that reaches SL.

Prior to Toronto ever popping up I don't see many if any that would have suggested NA... say over France.  Yet now many whom would never of said 5years ago seem to think that unless we embrace expansion into NA the sport is doomed in the UK/France.

[Harry Stottle]

16 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Don't get overboard with it Harry.  What I mean is he will cover the outstanding wages.  I think that has yet to be finalised. Interesting topic, paying wages though.  Just going from the Bob Hunter piece.

If there is a presentation, then I will imagine it will go to a vote, which could end up being a tie as there will be 10 clubs - unless they ask Catalans to vote on it, or will McManus be allowed 2 votes?  Or even Derek Beaumont, as an impartial?  Maybe 'sweaty craic' can advise?

I think the more intersting 'liabilities' to the SL Chairmen will be the ones going forward, will the new owners carry on with no funding and paying for visiting teams travel and subsistance, these were the two major factors that seemingly annoyed Mr Argyle which he addresed the SL with, obviously he recieved a negative response hence walking.

I thought that was what you were referring to with your statement, so your question 'odds on being accepted' every chance they will be accepted as long as it is not costing clubs to play them in Canada and they carry on with no funding for next year at least. 

[Adelaide Tiger]

15 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Let’s not forget here. Argyle threw the towel in. He did that in a very tinpot way.

Yes he did but that was after 3 years.  If Toronto had been accepted into SL in year 1 things could have turned out differently.  But we will never know.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, redjonn said:

Maybe... but could those SL owners whom in your opinion don't see the big picture just maybe see a clearer big picture which says expansion into NA at this stage don't make any strategic sense...

I guess those clinging to survive will disappear from SL if in the long term we have more NA clubs... not so sure how the sport in this country or France will benefit overall.

The problem with the likes of my self is I don't see the strategic plan as to where effort, resources, money for expansion should be invested.  As for sure as already reading many want money to be given to Toronto and I guess any other NA club that reaches SL.

Prior to Toronto ever popping up I don't see many if any that would have suggested NA... say over France.  Yet now many whom would never of said 5years ago seem to think that unless we embrace expansion into NA the sport is doomed in the UK/France.

I agree. I'm cool with somebody else funding opportunistic stuff like NA expansion, but I wouldn't be spending existing money.

I would however be spending money on further expansion in France and the UK. There are huge swathes of both countries where RL has pretty much zero presence.

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Yes he did but that was after 3 years.  If Toronto had been accepted into SL in year 1 things could have turned out differently.  But we will never know.

But what we do know is that there is no TV deal, there are non of the thousands of 'ready made for Rugby League Athletes' queuing up to get on board, there is nothing being done to 'expand' the game in terms of grassroots and participation, all that is happening is they are rolling the circus into town, I do wonder with nothing to fall back on and no intrinsic connection with the natives what will happen when the novelty begins to wane. 

[Harry Stottle]

13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I agree. I'm cool with somebody else funding opportunistic stuff like NA expansion, but I wouldn't be spending existing money.

I would however be spending money on further expansion in France and the UK. There are huge swathes of both countries where RL has pretty much zero presence.

Bottom Up or Top Down David?

[Adelaide Tiger]

18 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think it would be very difficult for TWP to have been put straight into SL under any kind of criteria. There was literally no evidence that it would be anything other than a failure. The decision for them to progress through the ranks allowed them to prove that they could setup and run a Rugby club and make the extremely challenging logistics work. Even after four years there are still many mistakes and things to learn. I don't think you test those things in the top league. 

At the start of this project TWP weren't a thing. There was very very little history of RL there, no foundations, no fanbase. Literally all there was was a rich man. Now I am not being dismissive of that, as often other clubs have the other things but no rich backer, but under any criteria it would be difficult to argue that TWP were an SL club 4 years ago. 

Under any criteria TWP would probably have had plenty of crosses against them. 

Ironically though, I think the positives that TWP have shown may help others be accepted in future, as we have seen that with the right level of investment a fanbase can be created, even in virgin territory.

You and I look at things from a different angle.  You speak about logistic issues.  But the World Club Championship in 1997 showed it was possible to fly around 30 teams around the world, so why was this such an issue?

Your comment ‘after 4 years there are still many mistakes’.  My response is that a more robust process that involved RFL/SL and Perez/Argylle when Toronto was just a proposal should have revealed issues such as Visa’s, playing games in blocks at home etc. and resolved there and then.

IMHO it doesn’t matter if there is no previous history in Toronto.  If accepted in SL in Year 1 Toronto would have bought a team that could compete in SL.  Whether the team was good enough is now a moot point.

As for the comment ‘crosses against them’ that is my entire point.  Any issues raised could have been resolved and if they were not resolved satisfactorily then Toronto should have been denied a place.

Your last paragraph is confusing.  You acknowledge that Toronto had a wealthy backer and a fan base but what other multi-millionaire investor would want to go through the process that Toronto went through?

 

[Adelaide Tiger]

10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

But what we do know is that there is no TV deal, there are non of the thousands of 'ready made for Rugby League Athletes' queuing up to get on board, there is nothing being done to 'expand' the game in terms of grassroots and participation, all that is happening is they are rolling the circus into town, I do wonder with nothing to fall back on and no intrinsic connection with the natives what will happen when the novelty begins to wane. 

Harry do you think they might have stood a better chance of getting a TV deal, even if it just matched what each SL club got from SKY, if they had been accepted straight into SL building on the momentum from their inception?

 

[Adelaide Tiger]

46 minutes ago, redjonn said:

Maybe... but could those SL owners whom in your opinion don't see the big picture just maybe see a clearer big picture which says expansion into NA at this stage don't make any strategic sense...

I guess those clinging to survive will disappear from SL if in the long term we have more NA clubs... not so sure how the sport in this country or France will benefit overall.

The problem with the likes of my self is I don't see the strategic plan as to where effort, resources, money for expansion should be invested.  As for sure as already reading many want money to be given to Toronto and I guess any other NA club that reaches SL.

Prior to Toronto ever popping up I don't see many if any that would have suggested NA... say over France.  Yet now many whom would never of said 5years ago seem to think that unless we embrace expansion into NA the sport is doomed in the UK/France.

Hey, maybe the SL owners are right and I am wrong.  But what I have difficulty with is that if Toronto were deemed worthy of a place in the UK competition then it MUST have made strategic sense to someone.

My earlier proposal does not suggest that we should lose any English clubs.  My proposal is that you can still have a set number of places for English clubs I.e. 10 as we had this year and have P&R between English clubs.  If you add Catalans and TWP you have 12 clubs and over the next 2–3 years add Ottawa and Toulouse.

Re Strategic Plan.  There isn’t one is there?  And that is the problem.  If there was a Strategic Plan for expansion teams and it explicitly stated that non-UK clubs could NOT access SKY money then so be it.  At least everyone would know the situation.

I don’t believe the sport will die in the UK/France if we do not embrace NA but I feel that if we ignore NA then we could be missing a long term opportunity to grow the game in NA, France and the UK.

 

[Adelaide Tiger]

18 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Being in L1 and Championship grew the club. Straight into SL would have killed it. The point of expansion is to educate. You can’t just throw them in the elite division without testing the waters first.

That would have been suicidal.

Yep, and the process that was implemented was a smashing success (I am being sarcastic just in case you thought I was serious).

just imagine what could have been achieved had Argylle had the opportunity to put $30 million into a SL club from the outset.

[Dave T]

44 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Bottom Up or Top Down David?

Our central expansion efforts should be focused on grassroots stuff. We should be investing in population centres, working in schools, colleges, universities and amateur clubs. 

At the same time we should be creating a welcoming and attractive competition that is open to investment that could see a pro team created and enter the pyramid. 

[Dave T]

38 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

1. You and I look at things from a different angle.  You speak about logistic issues.  But the World Club Championship in 1997 showed it was possible to fly around 30 teams around the world, so why was this such an issue?

2. Your comment ‘after 4 years there are still many mistakes’.  My response is that a more robust process that involved RFL/SL and Perez/Argylle when Toronto was just a proposal should have revealed issues such as Visa’s, playing games in blocks at home etc. and resolved there and then.

3. IMHO it doesn’t matter if there is no previous history in Toronto.  If accepted in SL in Year 1 Toronto would have bought a team that could compete in SL.  Whether the team was good enough is now a moot point. As for the comment ‘crosses against them’ that is my entire point.  Any issues raised could have been resolved and if they were not resolved satisfactorily then Toronto should have been denied a place.

4. Your last paragraph is confusing.  You acknowledge that Toronto had a wealthy backer and a fan base but what other multi-millionaire investor would want to go through the process that Toronto went through?

 

Sorry to go list form, but you make some good points so want to address each of them to give my view.

1. I'll leave alone the obvious point that the WCC of 1997 was a one year wonder (which is a travesty as far as I'm concerned). But we have seen that TWP do have logistical issues, the Pro 14 have just seen their two South African teams take a hiatus, and RU's Super 15 (or whatever it is) has retracted. The logistics and costs around this make it difficult, but not impossible.

2. People  get hung up on visas, but there haven't been major issues. It is clear that TWP were using the one a few weeks back as a smokescreen, and then their bluff was called as the RFL sorted it. There has been the odd problem, but not a major issue, and this will always happen in international comps. Playing at home in blocks could be done better, but again, not the biggest issue. The issues I talk about are the frankly terrible business case of over-spending everywhere, then failing to meet commitments, whether that is transfer fees, broadcasting commitments, paying suppliers, and ultimately completing SL.

3. I think you are looking at that the wrong way. We shouldn't be talking about admitting a 'team' it should be a 'club'. At that stage literally every point will have been based on projections, which is fine, but if you looked at the main criteria you would expect in any licensing style approach, TWP would have scored very poorly as they literally had no evidence to support their claims. After a couple of years they had evidence of commercial performance, crowds, investor credibility etc. 

4. My point on this could help is that forecasts from the likes of Ottawa and New York (and others) actually have some evidence that RL can be attractive in virgin territory.  I also really don't think it is that onerous an ask. If people are serious about investing many millions into a new sports club, it is not unreasonable to ask them to do groundwork in advance of playing in SL. 

[Dave T]

14 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Yep, and the process that was implemented was a smashing success (I am being sarcastic just in case you thought I was serious).

By the time TWP made SL they had built a fanbase, built a team, a presence in the community, a panel of sponsors and partners, built their brand - they went into SL as a stronger club than one that may have been admitted straight into SL 4 years earlier.

I think it would be impossible to argue against that. However the question is whether we believe the cost of going through that process is too much. TWP's approach of spending full cap suggests they didn't think so as they could have navigated at least L1 with a much lower cost base.

[TBone]

There are reasons that Toronto were not allowed int SL to start with including...

1. there was no strategy in either the RFL or especially SLE (E is for Europe) to expand in NA

2. the SL clubs had got a taste for killing off other SL clubs and devouring their share of the Sky money to offset their own ######-poor attempts to actually increase attendances and develop other commercial income streams, So no chance of any outsider getting a slice of the pie

3. There were aspiring clubs in the championship that were clambering for a slice of the action through P&R, so they wouldn't be too happy.

As it was they were allowed in at the lowest professional level, possibly with the belief that they wouldn't last long the course!

You also suggest that Toronto working together with the RFL could've got to grips with the logistic problems. In that case you are more confident of the RFL's capabilities than I am. And, besides, they didn't really get it right until they were in the championship.

[Hela Wigmen]

10 minutes ago, TBone said:

 

2. the SL clubs had got a taste for killing off other SL clubs and devouring their share of the Sky money to offset their own ######-poor attempts to actually increase attendances and develop other commercial income streams, So no chance of any outsider getting a slice of the pie

 

Give me examples of this please. This should be fun.