The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[TheReaper]

24 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Personally I believe Argyle’s ideas on Toronto never included development of the game and still don’t.  The proof in the pudding being Perez leaving because they didn’t want what he wanted. 
 

See above - development of the game is the job of the governing body. Winning trophies and selling tickets is the job of a professional sports team.

IF a team sees advantages in developing their own talent - whether it be lower player costs, greater team cohesion, or better connections with fans - it is up to them to recognize that an implement it if they so choose.

Quote

Times will tell with the aces, but if they start to develop your post is worthless.

Is it?  Could have sworn this was a discussion forum.

So you're saying if a particular professional sports team sees value in signing local players, that negates the attitudes, experiences and perspectives of millions of existing sports fans? Do go on...

Edit: I realize there were efforts made to keep this thread on topic. But given the lack of commentary on the new partnership, I decided screw it, I'll argue back on the usual points again. Sorry to those who didn't want this be another "bUT wILl tHeY deVeLOp PLaYeRs" thread.

[Oldbear]

On 05/07/2020 at 01:47, Cardypaul said:

I think there are a couple of ways to look at this yes he’s clearly a very rich guy and may be able to throw enough money at the Wolfpack to win it and let’s be honest that’s what most chairman in SL do to win it. But what happens then does he get board and walk away and if so what happens to the Wolfpack will they have gained enough of a foothold on people’s imagination to keep going or will it all fall like a house of cards? Guess only time will tell.

Running this team takes a hell of a lot of $. If Argyle loses patience, or gets sick (believe me, I know what it’s like to deal with an unexpected diagnosis of a life threatening illness), then it really won’t matter if there are thousands of passionate fans, unless the Wolfpack can find other rich guys willing to do what he has, then the future would be bleak. Although having a very rich owner can be a major asset, it can also be a potential threat, both for the reasons mentioned above and because the very rich owner will always get his way. Who knows what private discussions have taken place about development, but unless the owner is committed to it (it’s his $ they are spending after all), then nothing, or at best very little, gets done. Now that may be the real reason Perez departed at the end of season 1, it may not be, as has been said, we will watch Ottawa’s approach with interest.

[Man of Kent]

The criticism about Toronto’s lack of (other than tokenistic) effort to begin to develop Canadian talent is perfectly valid. 

I’d have more respect for Wolfpack fans if they simply took that on the chin instead of pretending they’re somehow above and beyond reproach.

In truth Wolfpack fans would be doing themselves a favour if they took the development criticism on board because until they have a juniors pipeline they’ll more or less just be making up the numbers in Super League, cf. Wigan, Leeds, Saints. 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, TheReaper said:

Right 

Due to population and geography it is incredibly hard to have a national Canadian league in anything. The one we have has tons of highly skilled and talented Canadians that were developed here (CFL). The other one had that has become the defacto American national league (NHL) is also half full of extremely skilled Canadians that were developed here.

No other sport* has a national professional league, and instead exist within the American sports ecosystem, so there is no particular focus of specifically developing Canadian players. There are no quotas, they take the best players they can fit under their salary caps, fans love to watch competitive teams, and therefore Canadian content has no effect on either their competitiveness or commercial attractiveness. That's not to say they don't develop players - The Jays Leafs and Raptors all do develop players, but they best youngsters they can get their hands on from all over, not with a national focus.

Professional sports are not the same this as representative sports.

Sports development at the grassroots is the prerogative on national governing bodies, not professional sports entertainment businesses. They are not the same thing and have different objectives, responsibilities, and stakeholders. 

Every sport governing body in Canada is doing their absolute best that they can with the resources they have to develop their athletes. As does any governing body around the world. 

So this:

 

Is just Harry being an ignorant #####**. We produce NHL, NBA, NFL, MLB, CFL, AFL, Super Rugby , Premiership, Top 14, Pro 14, Bundesliga, PGA, ATP, and Olympic level players/athletes and are extremely proud of them.

The economics simply to not allow us to sustain many national leagues that can have that as their focus.

*I'm not forgetting CPL, CEBL and NBLC, but they are all young and still trying to achieve sustainability.

**Mods, I feel Harry's comment deserves my insult since he is displaying literal ignorance in a rude fashion. Remove the insult if you must but please leave the rest of the content of my post intact.

Hey Mr Reaper, the only connection I have ever had with any Canadians discussing any topic is on these pages, I have not made up what I am saying simply reiterating the information I have been fed, more than one of your countrymen has stated that "in Canada we don't care where pro player's of any sport come from,  we will employ them", and that is in reaction to my concern that those prominent in RL in your country - which if you want is the heirarchy of TWP - are not interested in "EXPANDING" the sport they are simply happy to lean on others.

I simply don't care one fig what that other plethora of sports you mention do or even the last 3 CPL, CEBL and NBLC (whatever they are involved in) who you state are young and still trying to acheive sustainability, if Toronto and its area's, zones, districts also did something positive I would be high in the queue to applaud it, but the silence is deafening in it's abundance.

I make no apology for capitalising "expanding" to acheive that an influx of more participants is required, not just a paying audience.

No insult attached!

[TheReaper]

42 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Aye. So much effort, so missed the point. 

My post was in objection to Harry's ridiculous statement that "we don't produce players and are proud of it", when we do and there are strong cultural reasons why they are not the focus of most sports leagues.

20 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

The criticism about Toronto’s lack of (other than tokenistic) effort to begin to develop Canadian talent is perfectly valid. 

I’d have more respect for Wolfpack fans if they simply took that on the chin instead of pretending they’re somehow above and beyond reproach.

In truth Wolfpack fans would be doing themselves a favour if they took the development criticism on board because until they have a juniors pipeline they’ll more or less just be making up the numbers in Super League, cf. Wigan, Leeds, Saints. 

It's nobody's business to tell another business how to find their employees. 

[Harry Stottle]

7 hours ago, RP London said:

Harry, I respect your position on Toronto i really do (i dont necessarily agree with it etc but i respect it). However, any chance we can knock it on the head...................

Sorry RP I was determined to take on board what you said, but when I take a slap in the face it is not in my nature to turn the other cheek, I have to respond.

[Harry Stottle]

13 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

It's nobody's business to tell another business how to find their employees.

No it isn't I agree with that, but there is an old saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" Toronto (area) may be seperated by a few thousand mile's from the RL organisation they have joined, but they should still be trying to provide other than just leeching.

[Man of Kent]

3 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

My post was in objection to Harry's ridiculous statement that "we don't produce players and are proud of it", when we do and there are strong cultural reasons why they are not the focus of most sports leagues.

I understand that but this is British pro sport we’re talking about and we don’t draft players from colleges here. It’s not about having ‘local heroes’ for the sake of it.

If every club pursued the Toronto model we would quickly find there wouldn’t be enough players of good standard. I’m sure there would be players from somewhere, but they wouldn’t have been developed at professional clubs by professional coaches and training with professional players.

Can you not see Toronto is at a competitive disadvantage compared to clubs with a production pipeline of juniors? 

[Damien]

33 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

Running this team takes a hell of a lot of $. If Argyle loses patience, or gets sick (believe me, I know what it’s like to deal with an unexpected diagnosis of a life threatening illness), then it really won’t matter if there are thousands of passionate fans, unless the Wolfpack can find other rich guys willing to do what he has, then the future would be bleak. Although having a very rich owner can be a major asset, it can also be a potential threat, both for the reasons mentioned above and because the very rich owner will always get his way. Who knows what private discussions have taken place about development, but unless the owner is committed to it (it’s his $ they are spending after all), then nothing, or at best very little, gets done. Now that may be the real reason Perez departed at the end of season 1, it may not be, as has been said, we will watch Ottawa’s approach with interest.

And how is that any different than any other rich owner doing that? Toronto aren't in in their own little bubble when it comes to this but seem to be doing more than most to diversify and develop their commercial side so they aren't dependent on one owner. 

[TheReaper]

26 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I understand that but this is British pro sport we’re talking about and we don’t draft players from colleges here. It’s not about having ‘local heroes’ for the sake of it.

If every club pursued the Toronto model we would quickly find there wouldn’t be enough players of good standard. I’m sure there would be players from somewhere, but they wouldn’t have been developed at professional clubs by professional coaches and training with professional players.

Can you not see Toronto is at a competitive disadvantage compared to clubs with a production pipeline of juniors? 

I can, but I think it's up to them to recognize the benefits to themselves. Forcing someone to do something makes it less likely that they will do it well. 

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I understand that but this is British pro sport we’re talking about and we don’t draft players from colleges here. It’s not about having ‘local heroes’ for the sake of it.

If every club pursued the Toronto model we would quickly find there wouldn’t be enough players of good standard. I’m sure there would be players from somewhere, but they wouldn’t have been developed at professional clubs by professional coaches and training with professional players.

Can you not see Toronto is at a competitive disadvantage compared to clubs with a production pipeline of juniors? 

The British RL model is signing the best players from amateur clubs that your club can attract in the hope that they become good enough for the first team. Professional clubs aren't some charity signing these players for the good of the game, they are doing that because it makes good sense for them and provides a steady stream of cheap talent. It would not make sense for every club to follow the Toronto model because it does not make business sense for them to do so and some probably couldn't afford to do so even if they wished.

I don't know any other UK sport that blindly follows the model that RL purists want Toronto to follow. I don't even know why some RL fans want all clubs to be the same in some sanitised, strictly controlled model to suit their club. Even the much fabled salary cap and youth development in reality does no more than favour the big clubs and maintain the status quo. It hasn't been this way for the vast majority of the history of Rugby League and isn't seen as the only way in Football or RU. Quite why it is seen as the only way now in RL I don't know. In Football or RU if an owner wants to plough money into the sport then so be it. If a RL club wants to splash the cash and put funds into other clubs through transfer fees then great. If they want to attract superstars then fantastic. As you say if Toronto do not want to produce youth, an argument against them that is exaggerated somewhat after only 3 years, in theory yes they are at a disadvantage but that should be their choice and it certainly shouldn't be the only measure of success.

[TheReaper]

30 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

No it isn't I agree with that, but there is an old saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" Toronto (area) may be seperated by a few thousand mile's from the RL organisation they have joined, but they should still be trying to provide other than just leeching.

They provide competitive fixtures, increased media coverage, increased pay to the players of the game. They provide a way for new fans to discover and engage in rugby league fandom. They provide an opportunity for English players to see a part of the world they might not have otherwise gone too, maybe encouraging some of them to stay in the game for a shot to play against or in TO. They provide new ideas of how to do some things. They have provided inspiration for others to start junior clubs here (I know of 2). 

So one aspect of many is not at the same level as all other clubs. Every club has some aspects of many that they do not do as well as other clubs. 

 

[Man of Kent]

13 minutes ago, Damien said:

The British RL model is signing the best players from amateur clubs that your club can attract in the hope that they become good enough for the first team. Professional clubs aren't some charity signing these players for the good of the game, they are doing that because it makes good sense for them and provides a steady stream of cheap talent. It would not make sense for every club to follow the Toronto model because it does not make business sense for them to do so and some probably couldn't afford to do so even if they wished.

I don't know any other UK sport that blindly follows the model that RL purists want Toronto to follow. I don't even know why some RL fans want all clubs to be the same in some sanitised, strictly controlled model to suit their club. Even the much fabled salary cap and youth development in reality does no more than favour the big clubs and maintain the status quo. It hasn't been this way for the vast majority of the history of Rugby League and isn't seen as the only way in Football or RU. Quite why it is seen as the only way now in RL I don't know. In Football or RU if an owner wants to plough money into the sport then so be it. If a RL club wants to splash the cash and put funds into other clubs through transfer fees then great. If they want to attract superstars then fantastic. As you say if Toronto do not want to produce youth, an argument against them that is exaggerated somewhat after only 3 years, in theory yes they are at a disadvantage but that should be their choice and it certainly shouldn't be the only measure of success.

Hmmm. You’re going to need more straw

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Hmmm. You’re going to need more straw

Nope and to be honest I feel that way when I read many of your posts and others. Plenty of people have differing views but yet some want the game run exactly the same way to an exact thinking, with no or little leeway, because that is what has been deemed best by some in Rugby League over the last 2 decades to suit their own agenda. This doesn't really allow for other viewpoints, models or other ways to build a club or achieve success.

[CanadianRugger]

5 hours ago, TheReaper said:

Is just Harry being an ignorant #####**. We produce NHL, NBA, NFL, MLB, CFL, AFL, Super Rugby , Premiership, Top 14, Pro 14, Bundesliga, PGA, ATP, and Olympic level players/athletes and are extremely proud of them.

The economics simply to not allow us to sustain many national leagues that can have that as their focus.

*I'm not forgetting CPL, CEBL and NBLC, but they are all young and still trying to achieve sustainability.

**Mods, I feel Harry's comment deserves my insult since he is displaying literal ignorance in a rude fashion. Remove the insult if you must but please leave the rest of the content of my post intact.

We know the answer to your first question, amen to the rest!

 

[TIWIT]

3 hours ago, SL17 said:

Tell it to Perez.

????

[TIWIT]

3 hours ago, Damien said:

Nope and to be honest I feel that way when I read many of your posts and others. Plenty of people have differing views but yet some want the game run exactly the same way to an exact thinking, with no or little leeway, because that is what has been deemed best by some in Rugby League over the last 2 decades to suit their own agenda. This doesn't really allow for other viewpoints, models or other ways to build a club or achieve success.

Plus it's been such a wonderful success.

[Oldbear]

5 hours ago, Damien said:

And how is that any different than any other rich owner doing that? Toronto aren't in in their own little bubble when it comes to this but seem to be doing more than most to diversify and develop their commercial side so they aren't dependent on one owner. 

The difference is that to do what Toronto do, that is play in a league in a different continent, with no TV money, requires your owner to be really rich, and have no interest in getting a return back, whereas the owner of a say Huddersfield does not need to be so rich, therefore if he were to die, get sick or lose interest, there would probably be other similar wealthy men or women ready to replace him. There’s not too many people of Argyles wealth, and I would guess even fewer that combine that wealth with a willingness to lose a ton of money on an RL team, meaning that if he were to go for whatever reason, he will not be so easy to replace.

[TIWIT]

16 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Why the question marks? 
 

Perez was an employee,  hence the non disclosure when he left. 
 

What world do you live in.

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, TheReaper said:

They provide competitive fixtures, increased media coverage, increased pay to the players of the game. They provide a way for new fans to discover and engage in rugby league fandom. They provide an opportunity for English players to see a part of the world they might not have otherwise gone too, maybe encouraging some of them to stay in the game for a shot to play against or in TO. They provide new ideas of how to do some things. They have provided inspiration for others to start junior clubs here (I know of 2). 

So one aspect of many is not at the same level as all other clubs. Every club has some aspects of many that they do not do as well as other clubs. 

 

I answered your statement when you said "It's nobody's business to tell another business how to find their employees" 

You know very well we were discussing player development, of which my direct answer was "When in Rome........... and leeching" relating to the fact that TWP have joined an organisation and are happy to sit back and rely on others to do all the providing, and based on the progress they are making or even any intention to start it off the reliance on other 'provider's'will be for ever.

The fact that you have ignored that response and launched into some diatribe to sway away from the discussion point, suggests you believe that I am correct.