Tommygilf Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 The NRL and Kangaroos are basically unknown in the UK. Even amongst RL fans, I'd wager only half at best could name you more than a couple of the current Australian internationals. Only the proper nauses (such as myself I suppose), could name you more than a handful of the teams. I know myself when I've been watching the NRL games I've only really paid attention to the games with the British players in. NRL is seen as exotic, you'll see quite a lot of odd bits of training gear around amateur clubs training sessions. Perhaps its this that feeds into a reality whereby Super League players seem to just go to any random NRL club. That said, the total lack of reality that British Broadcasters represent when they go to Australia is outrageous. Portillo went to Brisbane and instead of talking about the State's favourite past time bar none, he went to the decaying Ballymore. Even when the cricket goes down under its the same in my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allora Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, AB90 said: Or maybe he chose Warrington as they offered him the most money using the marquee player allowance on him. Doesn't mean he had no other nrl options. No NRL Clubs were prepared to pay his over the top demands. Talent is secondary to whether players are confident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB90 Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 44 minutes ago, Allora said: No NRL Clubs were prepared to pay his over the top demands. That may be true but doesn't mean hes an nrl reject like people on this thread are suggesting. There would be half a dozen teams that would take his services in a heart beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 54 minutes ago, Allora said: No NRL Clubs were prepared to pay his over the top demands. Or Warrington offered him a better deal than any NRL club. That is how international sporting transfers work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Damien said: Tomkins was always going to struggle a little in the NRL compared to Super League because his strengths weren't suited to the competition there. He was never going to just waltz through NRL defences and if he cant do that then the rest of his game is pretty average. Tomkins was 4th in tackle breaks in the NRL in his first season. This idea that he struggled in the NRL is a myth and the after a very good first season, the only thing that held him back in year 2 was a recurring injury. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Tomkins was 4th in tackle breaks in the NRL in his first season. This idea that he struggled in the NRL is a myth and the after a very good first season, the only thing that held him back in year 2 was a recurring injury. I disagree and again stats never tell the full story. For the money he didnt perform as expected, I know few that dispute that and NZ Warriors were glad to let him go. I'm happy to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 A few highlights of Sam Tomkins scoring tries, setting up tries and stopping tries in the NRL in 2014. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB90 Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 15 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Tomkins was 4th in tackle breaks in the NRL in his first season. This idea that he struggled in the NRL is a myth and the after a very good first season, the only thing that held him back in year 2 was a recurring injury. I think when people say Tomkins struggled it's more so in reference to his reputation and salary at the time. He was earning money that would of put him in the top 10 highest paid players in the nrl. If you earn that money your expected to be a franchise player which he unfortunately wasn't. Still a very good starting quality nrl fullback. But for the salary paid you would of expected more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 23 minutes ago, AB90 said: I think when people say Tomkins struggled it's more so in reference to his reputation and salary at the time. He was earning money that would of put him in the top 10 highest paid players in the nrl. If you earn that money your expected to be a franchise player which he unfortunately wasn't. Still a very good starting quality nrl fullback. But for the salary paid you would of expected more. The thing is, he didn't struggle. I have posted some stats, I have posted some highlights and here is a link from NRL.com rating him the 4th best fullback in the NRL in 2014. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nrl.com/news/2014/12/15/the-nrls-top-five-fullbacks/Amp/ He had a severely disrupted 2nd season which has affected the way people perceive his time over there but in his first season he was very good. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 37 minutes ago, AB90 said: I think when people say Tomkins struggled it's more so in reference to his reputation and salary at the time. He was earning money that would of put him in the top 10 highest paid players in the nrl. If you earn that money your expected to be a franchise player which he unfortunately wasn't. Still a very good starting quality nrl fullback. But for the salary paid you would of expected more. Indeed. He struggled to match his salary and reputation and didnt have the impact that was expected. He also played 16 games in 2015, only 5 less than 2014 so to not take into his account his value for money and performance over the two years is simply not valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 22 minutes ago, Damien said: Indeed. He struggled to match his salary and reputation and didnt have the impact that was expected. He also played 16 games in 2015, only 5 less than 2014 so to not take into his account his value for money and performance over the two years is simply not valid. Where are you getting the 16 games in 2015 and 21 in 2014 from? According to Rugby League Project he played 24 in 2014 and 13 in 2015. Edit: NRL.com also has him playing 24 games in 2014. And Wikipedia 37 overall for New Zealand Warriors and so the 24 & 13 looks correct. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB90 Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 44 minutes ago, Dunbar said: The thing is, he didn't struggle. I have posted some stats, I have posted some highlights and here is a link from NRL.com rating him the 4th best fullback in the NRL in 2014. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nrl.com/news/2014/12/15/the-nrls-top-five-fullbacks/Amp/ He had a severely disrupted 2nd season which has affected the way people perceive his time over there but in his first season he was very good. I said he struggled in comparison to his salary. In a salary capped sport if your paid top 10 money you are expected to be a top 10 player (just like in any other profession). If your highest earners under perform you unfortunately won't have success as team especially in a competition as close as the nrl where everyone spends the full cap. I imagine the top 10 nrl players at the time of 2014/15 would been Cam Smith, Jonathan Thurston, Billy Slater, Cooper Cronk, Jarryd Hayne, Greg Inglis, Sam Burgess, Ben Barba, Paul Gallen, Jason Taumalolo, Sonny Bill Williams etc. Were the NZ Warriors getting roughly the same value from Tomkins in comparison to these players? Based off his salary they should of. I personally thought he did pretty well but just not worth the money he was on (and that's without even mentioning the transfer fee). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, AB90 said: I said he struggled in comparison to his salary. In a salary capped sport if your paid top 10 money you are expected to be a top 10 player (just like in any other profession). If your highest earners under perform you unfortunately won't have success as team especially in a competition as close as the nrl where everyone spends the full cap. I imagine the top 10 nrl players at the time of 2014/15 would been Cam Smith, Jonathan Thurston, Billy Slater, Cooper Cronk, Jarryd Hayne, Greg Inglis, Sam Burgess, Ben Barba, Paul Gallen, Jason Taumalolo, Sonny Bill Williams etc. Were the NZ Warriors getting roughly the same value from Tomkins in comparison to these players? Based off his salary they should of. I personally thought he did pretty well but just not worth the money he was on (and that's without even mentioning the transfer fee). I agree he went over with a big reputation and a lot was expected of him. However, I think he did well in his first year and it is pretty much consensus opinion that years 2 and 3 is when a player will come into his own in a new competition. Unfortunately for Tomkins, year 2 was severely affected by an injury that also hindered his first year back in Super League in 2016. We can use relative performance against salary, expectations and reputation but the point I was initially contesting is that he struggled in the NRL and I maintain that he did not. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiltshire Warrior Dragon Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 On 01/07/2020 at 19:25, The Hallucinating Goose said: I haven't watched eggheads in years, couldn't stand any of them, horrible people who just love themselves. It's an amazing moment whenever there's a question about RL on British TV at all, even on question of sport there's maybe only one RL question ever 5 episodes or so. I almost had an heartattack the other night when I was watching the chase and the question was something like, "In rugby league, the champions of the European Super League play the champions of which country in the world club challenge". The options were Australia, NZ and Fiji if I remember rightly. Contestant didn't have a clue of course and went for NZ. I was thinking at the time that I'd have stopped the show and given a detailed explanation as to how the world club challenge could actually be between teams from Canada and NZ in which case it wouldn't be a European and an Australian team which is what they were looking for of course and then carried on explaining that teams from 6 different countries can theoretically (if the Welsh teams got up through the pyramid) get into the world club challenge and then offered a detailed analysis of current developments with expansion and how Serbian, Spanish and US teams may soon be in the system. People would have learned something about RL if I had been on that show! Don't be too hard, HG. Off camera they could be nice; what you saw was a premeditated 'persona' for each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB90 Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 32 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I agree he went over with a big reputation and a lot was expected of him. However, I think he did well in his first year and it is pretty much consensus opinion that years 2 and 3 is when a player will come into his own in a new competition. Unfortunately for Tomkins, year 2 was severely affected by an injury that also hindered his first year back in Super League in 2016. We can use relative performance against salary, expectations and reputation but the point I was initially contesting is that he struggled in the NRL and I maintain that he did not. Agreed. Its nonsense to suggest he struggled. In looking at the nrl.coms top 50 players of 2014, he came in at 39th. The 39th best player in the nrl is a fantastic rugby league player. And as you say, he would of improved on this if he stayed injury free during year 2 and 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Dunbar said: Where are you getting the 16 games in 2015 and 21 in 2014 from? According to Rugby League Project he played 24 in 2014 and 13 in 2015. Edit: NRL.com also has him playing 24 games in 2014. And Wikipedia 37 overall for New Zealand Warriors and so the 24 & 13 looks correct. Just took them from here but happy to go by the NRL stats: https://www.loverugbyleague.com/stats/players/Sam-Tomkins/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 As I said previously 1 stat never tells the full story and people need to look at the full picture. In 2014 let's not forget that Tomkins was in the top 10 for errors in the entire NRL and averaged 1.5 missed tackles a game. He was getting plenty of stick for being a liability and a waste of money even in that year. It's not like 2014 was some stellar year considering the top 10 salary in the entire NRL like he was getting paid. People like Peter Sterling summed him up as being a flop and that he was disappointing in the NRL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 11 minutes ago, Damien said: As I said previously 1 stat never tells the full story and people need to look at the full picture. In 2014 let's not forget that Tomkins was in the top 10 for errors in the entire NRL and averaged 1.5 missed tackles a game. He was getting plenty of stick for being a liability and a waste of money even in that year. It's not like 2014 was some stellar year considering the top 10 salary in the entire NRL like he was getting paid. People like Peter Sterling summed him up as being a flop and that he was disappointing in the NRL. I wasn't using one stat to sum up Tomkins contribution in the NRL. I pointed out that Tomkins was 4th in tackle busts in the NRL in 2014 in response to your comment that he "was never going to just waltz through NRL defences". I understand why Australians want to brand him a flop... probably much the same as some over here get satisfaction from seeing big name Australian signing fail... but he wasn't a flop and he played well in his first year over there. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 24 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I wasn't using one stat to sum up Tomkins contribution in the NRL. I pointed out that Tomkins was 4th in tackle busts in the NRL in 2014 in response to your comment that he "was never going to just waltz through NRL defences". I understand why Australians want to brand him a flop... probably much the same as some over here get satisfaction from seeing big name Australian signing fail... but he wasn't a flop and he played well in his first year over there. You seem to be ignoring the compared the struggle a little compared to Super League part just to have an argument. He never waltzed through defences at will like he did in Super League. I watched pretty much every one, if not all, of Tomkins NRL matches that were televised and to make that out just isn't true. You are also failing to completely comprehend his performance relative to his salary and him being the big name and playmaker that the Warriors wanted. Others obviously have a different opinion of how he played and how he fared. Was he rubbish? No. Was he fantastic? No. Was he even very good? No. He was somewhere in between and that in between didnt justify his top 10 salary. Neither does your opinion of just playing well. I'll leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 10 minutes ago, Damien said: You seem to be ignoring the compared the struggle a little compared to Super League part just to have an argument. He never waltzed through defences at will like he did in Super League. I watched pretty much every one, if not all, of Tomkins NRL matches that were televised and to make that out just isn't true. You are also failing to completely comprehend his performance relative to his salary and him being the big name and playmaker that the Warriors wanted. Others obviously have a different opinion of how he played and how he fared. Was he rubbish? No. Was he fantastic? No. Was he even very good? No. He was somewhere in between and that in between didnt justify his top 10 salary. Neither does your opinion of just playing well. I'll leave it at that. I don't know how we even got on to his performances relative to his salary. I just don't like people peddling the myth that Tomkins 'failed in every way' which is the first reference to him on this thread. I'm not discussing his salary, his transfer fee or the expectations people had of him, as others have pointed out, after his first season in the NRL he was rated in the top 40 players in the comp... that is not 'failing in every way'. (I accept this in not what you said but it is the part that got me defensive) "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 Vaguely back on topic, the answer to enhancing the British perception of RL in Oz - and the British perception of RL full stop - is internationals on terrestrial TV. They are the gateway drug. Automatic buy-in, innit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB90 Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 52 minutes ago, Damien said: You seem to be ignoring the compared the struggle a little compared to Super League part just to have an argument. He never waltzed through defences at will like he did in Super League. I watched pretty much every one, if not all, of Tomkins NRL matches that were televised and to make that out just isn't true. You are also failing to completely comprehend his performance relative to his salary and him being the big name and playmaker that the Warriors wanted. Others obviously have a different opinion of how he played and how he fared. Was he rubbish? No. Was he fantastic? No. Was he even very good? No. He was somewhere in between and that in between didnt justify his top 10 salary. Neither does your opinion of just playing well. I'll leave it at that. I agree with the overall premise of your point but your being a bit harsh when you say 'was he even very good'. No'. Imo. I thought he was very just not the star or franchise player he was expected to be. His only full, injury free season in 2014 he was ranked the 39th best player by nrl.com. Considering there are 480 nrl players at any given time that puts him in the top 12% of the nrl in his first season. I would consider that to be a very good nrl player. I would say the top 100 to 150 nrl players are all very good at their craft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB90 Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 44 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I don't know how we even got on to his performances relative to his salary. I just don't like people peddling the myth that Tomkins 'failed in every way' which is the first reference to him on this thread. I'm not discussing his salary, his transfer fee or the expectations people had of him, as others have pointed out, after his first season in the NRL he was rated in the top 40 players in the comp... that is not 'failing in every way'. (I accept this in not what you said but it is the part that got me defensive) Unfortunately salary and reputation come into when analysing players. No different to imports that come to super league. Take Ryan Sutton for instance. I think the general consensus is hes doing really well. Now I don't know the ins and outs but I assume hes on a modest wage, putting in a good 30 minute stint off the bench with some weeks not even making the Raiders match day 17 (I.e during last years raiders final run). But what if that was Luke Thompson? Coming over on a large wage with some people saying hes 'the best prop in the world'? Would a 30 minute stint off the bench and coming in and out of first grade be considered a success for Luke Thompson? Of course not. He would be deemed an absolute failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futtocks Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 24 minutes ago, Man of Kent said: Vaguely back on topic Good luck with that. Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. Ralph Waldo Emerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapologetic pedant Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 On 03/07/2020 at 13:53, Tre Cool said: I would suggest the huge crowds and colourful/tribal nature of Aussie Rules in Melbourne has promoted the sport as a significant and interesting part of the city and is on the radar of your average Brit who knows anything about Melbourne. Even if they haven't been there. RL in Sydney just doesn't have the same cultural impact on outsiders view of Sydney. Small, suburban crowds I would think don't help that. Anyone who goes to Sydney can't help but notice how big RL is as it's all over the media and TV locally. But ask someone to name a few interesting, cultural things about Sydney and RL isn't going to pop up in many heads. I'm sure there's more reasons for this too. Australian travel guides always feature a lot more about Aussie Rules than RL. This is not surprising given its singular, distinctively Australian nature. Only the Irish will be familiar with anything remotely like it. You might think the dominance of League over Union might be seen by producers of travelogues as unusual and worthy of attention, but that brings the elephant into the room. Namely, the word "Rugby". Many posters on here are happy to refer to RL as Rugby. So when an item on Sydney or Brisbane focuses on the national Rugby team, the Wallabies, and all things related, its makers are surely right to be perplexed that anyone on this Rugby forum had objections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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