Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Tommygilf

ISC pulling out?

Recommended Posts

I do feel RL merchandise could be a much bigger money spinner for clubs than it currently is.

Many sports clubs, including football clubs, tend to go for quantity over quality in much of what they offer.

  • Like 1

Newham Dockers - Champions 2013. Rugby League For East London. 100% Cockney Rugby League!

Twitter: @NewhamDockersRL - Get following!

www.newhamdockers.co.uk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They doubled the previous record in 2 weeks and are still climbing alongside having sold less than 10% of that number 3 years ago. 

Quality gear gets respect and value. Look rubbish and people won't pay for it.

They're also in a higher league, people are spending more on merch because they can't buy tickets and the club isn't having the supply chain issues that they historically had with Macron and Kappa. 

Correlation is not causation. 

Edited by whatmichaelsays

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, EastLondonMike said:

Canterbury probably make the vast majority of their money with the international teams. They will obviously want some presence within the union clubs, but sure they can replace those they no longer supply quite easily.

I used to work for the company that owns Canterbury (Pentland), and they were always one of the most expensive brands involved in both codes of Rugby.

Clubs in RL currently seem much more interested in the balance sheet than the quality of their merchandise. If they can make an extra penny by going cheaper, they will.

Thats a sad but true statement. Ironically Wakefield, through Elite Pro's distribution of ISC, managed to improve their merchandise. That says more about Wakefield's previous gear than anything else though

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Kit suppling is sponsorship at the end of the day.

If you're a sportswear manufacturer looking to show that you sell rugby clobber, you'll supply and get your logo on the shirts of the teams that play in front of TV audiences across Europe. That ain't RL. 

I'm sure Oxen, VX3, BLK, Bristol Sports and Samurai are involved for precisely that reason... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I'd love to have your hopefulness but given some of the recent commercial decisions of the club I'm worried we're going for the cheap option of Elite Pro sports/Oxen. I think I'm right in thinking they've been doing stuff for Leeds for the past season and a bit, including now running the club shop and distributing ISC merch. Sadly it seems that coincides with when our quality of off field stuff has also declined.

I've got myself a new LUFC shirt and the stuff in the shop is quality and feels like premium items. I'd hate for the Rhinos to be ###### by comparison.

Yeah as much as I'd like to think they'll consider this, I'm resigned to the fact they almost certainly won't. Which is a shame because when the inevitable happens people will just point the fact LUFC were promoted, but is more complex than that alone. 

5 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Leeds will be Oxen because Oxen / EPS will be the ones willing to pay Leeds for the sponsorship / takeover of the retail function. 

The financials of going with a bigger "name" brand simply won't be there for Leeds. The number of shirts Leeds would sell wouldn't be that massively influenced by the manufacturer (the fan base is only so big) and, to Oxen / EPS, the contract for supplying Leeds is proportionally massive compared to what it is for an Adidas or Nike. 

It's easy to see Leeds United's Adidas shirt sales and think it is a massive factor, but Leeds United's shirt sales were already comparable to top-half / top six Premier League clubs even before they moved to Adidas. 

As per the above, I agree they most likely will. Doesn't mean they should be though and I think it does a disservice to Rhinos and RL fans in general to expect they'll keep buying these jerseys at the same or similar prices to higher end brands in other sports. Without a doubt a better known manufacturer/supplier increases shirt sales, regardless of the club's popularity. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

They're also in a higher league, people are spending more on merch because they can't buy tickets and the club isn't having the supply chain issues that they historically had with Macron and Kappa. 

Correlation is not causation. 

Quite, but to deny there has been a huge hype around this new kit deal since it first surfaced under a year ago would be to deny reality to prove a point. The sense of legitimacy that comes from a manufacturer like this as opposed to others is a prime example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The quality if the gear that goes into the club shops is quite likely down to what the clubs want to pay. Not the ability of the supplier. If they have a target price for what they want to pay for a polo shirt for instance, the supplier will work towards achieving that price. And you get what you pay for in product.

If you want quality, you do have to pay for it. I'd also imagine the volumes being ordered by the clubs are not that high, so that will also impact on whats achievable for the price.


Newham Dockers - Champions 2013. Rugby League For East London. 100% Cockney Rugby League!

Twitter: @NewhamDockersRL - Get following!

www.newhamdockers.co.uk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Yeah as much as I'd like to think they'll consider this, I'm resigned to the fact they almost certainly won't. Which is a shame because when the inevitable happens people will just point the fact LUFC were promoted, but is more complex than that alone. 

As per the above, I agree they most likely will. Doesn't mean they should be though and I think it does a disservice to Rhinos and RL fans in general to expect they'll keep buying these jerseys at the same or similar prices to higher end brands in other sports. Without a doubt a better known manufacturer/supplier increases shirt sales, regardless of the club's popularity. 

Agree 100% with this mate.

People forget also that ISC isn't really a well known brand but had the quality feel and mass coverage in Super League to increase its popularity amongst supporters. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I'm sure Oxen, VX3, BLK, Bristol Sports and Samurai are involved for precisely that reason... 

They are, but those brands are mostly priced out of sponsoring the more eminent teams by the larger brands because those brands are essentially paying for the TV exposure and access to the star players. 

If RL clubs want to attract the financial interest of the likes of Adidas and Nike, then they either need to shift the quantities of merchandise that those brands are interested in, or provide the sort of media exposure that they're happy to pay for.

There isn't a single RL club that does either so your options are either accept a 'lower quality' brand, or pay the likes of Nike or Adidas for the priviledge of wearing their logo. Unsuprisingly, the clubs choose the former. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Quite, but to deny there has been a huge hype around this new kit deal since it first surfaced under a year ago would be to deny reality to prove a point. The sense of legitimacy that comes from a manufacturer like this as opposed to others is a prime example.

I'm not denying the hype - I'm simply saying it's simplistic to say that the Rhinos would shift more shirts if they had Adidas rather than Oxen because that's what happened at Leeds United. 

The elasticity of demand for Premier League football shirts is far higher than it is for rugby league shirts, largely for the reasons I mentioned earlier. For starters, Leeds United have four retail outlets in the city compared to the one at Headingley - LUFC shirts are just that much more accessible.

Leeds United are far more fashionable than Leeds Rhinos at the moment.

Edited by whatmichaelsays

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

They are, but those brands are mostly priced out of sponsoring the more eminent teams by the larger brands because those brands are essentially paying for the TV exposure and access to the star players. 

If RL clubs want to attract the financial interest of the likes of Adidas and Nike, then they either need to shift the quantities of merchandise that those brands are interested in, or provide the sort of media exposure that they're happy to pay for.

There isn't a single RL club that does either so your options are either accept a 'lower quality' brand, or pay the likes of Nike or Adidas for the priviledge of wearing their logo. Unsuprisingly, the clubs choose the former. 

I'm sorry but that is talking down the game for no reason. Those other brands have exactly the same access to european audiences as Bath, Harlequins and Saracens do and have arguably bigger fanbases. Bath are actually moving from Canterbury too as it goes leaving only Harlequins in the top tier with a major manufacturer. So they're clearly not that valuable or precious as you're making out. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I'm not denying the hype - I'm simply saying it's simplistic to say that the Rhinos would shift more shirts if they had Adidas rather than Oxen because that's what happened at Leeds United. 

The elasticity of demand for Premier League football shirts is far higher than it is for rugby league shirts, largely for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Leeds United are far more fashionable than Leeds Rhinos at the moment.

I never said that at all. I said that quality kits and off field gear sells better than cheap feeling tat and that would look even worse with half the city decked out in world class quality apparel too. I will happily say that if we get cheap rubbish it will sell worse than ISC has unless they put significant discounts on - which has been a ploy they've used multiple times this year. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They doubled the previous record in 2 weeks and are still climbing alongside having sold less than 10% of that number 3 years ago. 

Quality gear gets respect and value. Look rubbish and people won't pay for it.

Exactly, RL replica kit and merchandise only appeals to RL fans when it is manufactured by relatively unknown Companies.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I'm sorry but that is talking down the game for no reason. Those other brands have exactly the same access to european audiences as Bath, Harlequins and Saracens do and have arguably bigger fanbases. Bath are actually moving from Canterbury too as it goes leaving only Harlequins in the top tier with a major manufacturer. So they're clearly not that valuable or precious as you're making out. 

How is it talking the game down without reason? 

Sponsor Saracens or Harlequins, and you're kit logos are seen by TV audiences in the UK, Ireland, France, Italy, Spain and wherever else the European cup is played. 

Sponsor a Super League team, and your logos are seen by an audience that is predominantly concentrated in a small corridor of England. 

Does supplying Saracens or Harlequins get you notably more volume sales than sponsoring Leeds or Wigan? No. Does it get you wider international TV coverage? Yes. Does it get you better access to personalities that are recognisable outside of their sports' core audience? Yes.

Nike wants Owen Farrell to wear its logo because it looks as if he endorses Nike clobber, so they supply the club he plays for. We don't have stars on that level to leverage. 

How much tangible value that has is debatable, but there is value there and the truth is that RL's top clubs don't offer that in the same way that RU's top clubs do. 

13 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I never said that at all. I said that quality kits and off field gear sells better than cheap feeling tat and that would look even worse with half the city decked out in world class quality apparel too. I will happily say that if we get cheap rubbish it will sell worse than ISC has unless they put significant discounts on - which has been a ploy they've used multiple times this year. 

I'm not disputing that Leeds' merchandising strategy is flawed. What I'm suggesting is that I don't think the commercial argument for forgoing a sponsorship deal with a lower-tier brand over a lower-value deal with premium brand stacks up. There is a finite amount of demand for Leeds Rhinos shirts that isn't massively influenced by the manufacturer. How much pent-up or untapped demand do you think their is for Leeds Rhinos replica shirts?

Edited by whatmichaelsays

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I'm not disputing that Leeds' merchandising strategy is flawed. What I'm suggesting is that I don't think the commercial argument for forgoing a sponsorship deal with a lower-tier brand over a lower-value deal with premium brand stacks up. There is a finite amount of demand for Leeds Rhinos shirts that isn't massively influenced by the manufacturer

But whilst that's true, I think that's what my original point comes back to, WMS. Rhinos know their sales numbers pretty reliably for say the past 15 years (ISC era). Since LUFC's 2004 demise there's no denying the Rhinos fate (until very recent) has been the polar opposite. ISC has built itself up to be a very well respected brand in RL. So combing the resurgence of LUFC with the completely unrelated but reality that the Rhinos aren't at their best and then throwing in a new kit supplier - I do worry the Rhinos will suffer heavy in this commercial area. To put it another way - the Rhinos need to do whatever it takes to make themselves attractive to a fanbase being eaten away at - whether that be at the gate or in the club shop. An unknown/budget brand like Oxen won't help that. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

But whilst that's true, I think that's what my original point comes back to, WMS. Rhinos know their sales numbers pretty reliably for say the past 15 years (ISC era). Since LUFC's 2004 demise there's no denying the Rhinos fate (until very recent) has been the polar opposite. ISC has built itself up to be a very well respected brand in RL. So combing the resurgence of LUFC with the completely unrelated but reality that the Rhinos aren't at their best and then throwing in a new kit supplier - I do worry the Rhinos will suffer heavy in this commercial area. To put it another way - the Rhinos need to do whatever it takes to make themselves attractive to a fanbase being eaten away at - whether that be at the gate or in the club shop. An unknown/budget brand like Oxen won't help that. 

There is probably a lot of truth to that, but the core issue is that those "better" brands don't see the Rhinos / RL clubs as worth their while, which doesn't give the club a lot of options. I don't think it is necessarily the best move to leave money on the table to 'gamble' that Adidas or Nike shirts will make the Rhinos brand more fashionable. 

Frankly, the first step should be getting rid of the God-awful crest. 

Edited by whatmichaelsays

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im not actually sure shirts sales (for instance) would change drastically if it was Nike, Puma or AN other as the supplier. Not for RL clubs. Clubs would have a good idea of what their historic sales figures look like.

Out of interest i would love to see the sales figures for merch over the last 10 years, across all SL clubs. I bet there isn't a great deal of difference year-on-year. Which should be viewed as a problem IMO.

The difference of having a big name brand involved and engaged is that they would also sell the product through their sales channels. That will only happen if the brand see's the sport/club as a worthwhile investment of time and money. And has a strategy and outlook that matches their own.

RL will not have that interest unless the game grows significantly, and has far greater exposure and awareness than it currently does.

For me the only way RL could attract such big names currently is with a combined kit deal, with one supplier supplying all SL teams, for instance. Which is something i would definitely be exploring were i involved in SL. The novelty value is something that could pique interest of one or two of those bigger brands.


Newham Dockers - Champions 2013. Rugby League For East London. 100% Cockney Rugby League!

Twitter: @NewhamDockersRL - Get following!

www.newhamdockers.co.uk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

There is probably a lot of truth to that, but the core issue is that those "better" brands don't see the Rhinos / RL clubs as worth their while, which doesn't give the club a lot of options. I don't think it is necessarily the best move to leave money on the table to 'gamble' that Adidas or Nike shirts will make the Rhinos brand more fashionable.

Agreed - when we're talking about global brands like Adidas/Nike. But a brand like Canterbury, which is huge in rugby circles, shouldn't be out of the question and I truly believe would make a difference both in terms of volume and achievable price position. 

10 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Frankly, the first step should be getting rid of the God-awful crest. 

I don't disagree with that - long overdue IMO. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

They doubled the previous record in 2 weeks and are still climbing alongside having sold less than 10% of that number 3 years ago. 

Quality gear gets respect and value. Look rubbish and people won't pay for it.

Leeds Utd fans aren’t buying shirts because they’re made by Adidas though, it’s because they’re jumping back on the bandwagon after your (hilarious) lengthy spell outside the top flight, not that I’m criticising them for doing that.
It won’t be long before 50,000 Leeds fans are claiming that they were at Grimsby away in League One, just like Man City’s do. 

Edited by Eddie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

There is probably a lot of truth to that, but the core issue is that those "better" brands don't see the Rhinos / RL clubs as worth their while, which doesn't give the club a lot of options. I don't think it is necessarily the best move to leave money on the table to 'gamble' that Adidas or Nike shirts will make the Rhinos brand more fashionable. 

Frankly, the first step should be getting rid of the God-awful crest. 

Why wouldn’t they see them as worthwhile if they’ll sell plenty of shirts and make a profit? They make league two football shirts, which sell a lot less than the top RL teams do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, EastLondonMike said:

For me the only way RL could attract such big names currently is with a combined kit deal, with one supplier supplying all SL teams, for instance. Which is something i would definitely be exploring were i involved in SL. The novelty value is something that could pique interest of one or two of those bigger brands.

This absolutely is the way to go! It sees huge success in the NA big leagues and in RL terms does make the sport look like a much bigger addition to their portfolio than say one or two clubs. Mentioning O'Neills again, whilst as I've said they've not set the world alight with their RL kits so far, they do already have this 'supply all' model with GAA so it's the kind of contract they're familiar with. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Why wouldn’t they see them as worthwhile if they’ll sell plenty of shirts and make a profit? They make league two football shirts, which sell a lot less than the top RL teams do. 

What is your idea of "plenty"?

Those League Two football clubs with Adidas shirts aren't behind paid by Adidas to wear them - that's the difference. 

Farsley Celtic used to wear Nike shirts - they were provided by the sort of teamwear supplier that Dog & Gun FC or the local primary school year 5s can use. Adidas are happy to provide blank kits to bulk teamwear suppliers, but what clubs really want is a supplier to pay them for wearing their gear. 

Our clubs sell enough volume for the likes of Oxen and O'Neills for that - Elite Pro Sports bought a ten year lease on Headingley Stadium shop - but what we offer is back of the sofa money for the mega-brands in the sporting world. 

Edited by whatmichaelsays
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Leeds Utd fans aren’t buying shirts because they’re made by Adidas though, it’s because they’re jumping back on the bandwagon after your (hilarious) lengthy spell outside the top flight, not that I’m criticising them for doing that.
It won’t be long before 50,000 Leeds fans are claiming that they were at Grimsby away in League One, just like Man City’s do. 

I think the promotion overshadows how much of a genuine step up in quality and prestige there is in this. There wasn't anywhere near the same uplift for Norwich with Errea getting promoted was there?

Maybe its because I'm younger and there is much more of a focus on brands at my age group.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...