Second PNG team in the Queensland Cup?

[Pulga]

16 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

As with most things, it`s about finding the right balance. Ideally they would prefer to be in a position to raise the level from within.

A lot of players did go back to a Digicel Cup team this year, but in normal times there are no guarantees. If the links between their domestic game and overseas comps are not appropriately tiered, pathways can become mere escape routes. The ongoing NZ-to-Aus exodus has always militated against successful NZ RL comps.

In PNG it goes Digicel Cup > PNG Hunters > NRL.

The Hunters are a Queensland Cup team that the best Digicel Cup players go to. It's the perfect funnel. A second PNG team in the Qld cup would be terrific.

[unapologetic pedant]

On 02/11/2020 at 14:25, Eddie said:

This is an interesting point, my immediate reaction was how good it would be for the game in PNG, but obviously this is an alternative view. I feel the same about the game in France, would love to see more French teams in the Lancashire & Yorkshire (sorry European) League system but not if it’s to the detriment of Elite 1. 

The French have been floundering for decades, unable to generate much interest in their elite divisions. So there`s a stronger case for seeking inclusion in overseas leagues. Basically, and sadly, they haven`t got too much to lose.

PNG are different in that RL is massively more popular than in France and the Digicel Cup attracts plenty of interest. It`s about as successful a competition as any could be in a third world nation.

[unapologetic pedant]

2 minutes ago, Pulga said:

In PNG it goes Digicel Cup > PNG Hunters > NRL.

The Hunters are a Queensland Cup team that the best Digicel Cup players go to. It's the perfect funnel. A second PNG team in the Qld cup would be terrific.

This thread is about a current Digicel Cup team moving to the Q Cup, rather than the creation of a new entity for the purpose. Despite that, there ought to be no harm to the Digicel Cup in having two teams in the Q Cup. If however that turned into 5 or 6, you would have to fear for the 6 or 7 left behind.

The problem with the second team being the POM Vipers is that they are based, like the Hunters, in the capital. So there`s no spread of the Q Cup`s geographical footprint, and there`s bound to be a lot of replication, struggles for scarce resources etc.

[The Rocket]

1 hour ago, Pulga said:

Let's say 2 in Brisbane then one each for GC, Townsville, Toowoomba, Cairns and SC, Ipswich that's only 8 teams. Not really enough to jump from the NRL.

You`re forgetting the PNG sides and Pacifique Trieze.

The more professional competitions that any code can have the better, the question of the value of a broadcast deal is of course the X-factor. Whether a competition that features more Qld derby`s, plus of course the expansion teams, is worth more or the same on a per club basis than the current deal is an unknown. However given Queenslanders penchant for all things Queensland there is a possibility that it might actually rate better than many of the current games against south of the border teams. There would also be additional selling points, such as a Super bowl type scenario of the Southern and Northern based champions. It may well reinvigorate SOO as well. A shorter season would allow time to tinker with these concepts to add commercial value.

The situation you couldn`t have of course is one competition being the poor cousin of the other, otherwise you would end up with the scenario of what we had before with all the best players playing in one competition. Perhaps this could be mitigated  by the Broadcast deal being negotiated by the NRL and distributed after that.

One last point, if there is four bidders for the one new QLD franchise, all who claim to be cashed up and ready to go, 3 are going to be disappointed, for how long do they have to wait, to me that`s madness, if they are ready they should all be in, but of course with one competition that isn`t feasible, it would become unwieldy, better two competitions.

 

[Pulga]

6 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

This thread is about a current Digicel Cup team moving to the Q Cup, rather than the creation of a new entity for the purpose. Despite that, there ought to be no harm to the Digicel Cup in having two teams in the Q Cup. If however that turned into 5 or 6, you would have to fear for the 6 or 7 left behind.

The problem with the second team being the POM Vipers is that they are based, like the Hunters, in the capital. So there`s no spread of the Q Cup`s geographical footprint, and there`s bound to be a lot of replication, struggles for scarce resources etc.

It's actually a thread about a team returning to the Qld Cup. They've been there before.

There is absolutely no talk of a third team let alone 6 or 7 teams moving over. 

[unapologetic pedant]

5 hours ago, Pulga said:

It's actually a thread about a team returning to the Qld Cup. They've been there before.

There is absolutely no talk of a third team let alone 6 or 7 teams moving over. 

I know they were in there previously, but that was before the Hunters, which makes their return a different proposition.

If you check the thread, one member was canvassing for 5 or 6 PNG teams in Aus comps. If these were existing Digicel Cup franchises, it would leave 6 or 7 behind as I mentioned.

One other thought on this. During the Hunters` premiership-winning year they were regularly packing out the national stadium. Whilst if their fans saw footage of away games, they`d see pretty thin crowds. Would this matter? i.e. if the Hunters and Vipers garnered all the publicity away from the Digicel Cup, and people persistently saw how little interest there was in the Q Cup in Aus, could it drag PNG RL crowd support down nearer to that level?

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

20 hours ago, Pulga said:

In PNG it goes Digicel Cup > PNG Hunters > NRL.

The Hunters are a Queensland Cup team that the best Digicel Cup players go to. It's the perfect funnel. A second PNG team in the Qld cup would be terrific.

 

20 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

The French have been floundering for decades, unable to generate much interest in their elite divisions. So there`s a stronger case for seeking inclusion in overseas leagues. Basically, and sadly, they haven`t got too much to lose.

PNG are different in that RL is massively more popular than in France and the Digicel Cup attracts plenty of interest. It`s about as successful a competition as any could be in a third world nation.

Both PNG and France should have similar models with the Digicel and Elite leagues used as feeder/reserve sides for teams playing within the Australian and British league system.

A 2nd PNG side in the Queensland Cup, a 2nd French side in Super League, a new French side in the Championship would all be great moves.

[Pulga]

23 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

I know they were in there previously, but that was before the Hunters, which makes their return a different proposition.

If you check the thread, one member was canvassing for 5 or 6 PNG teams in Aus comps. If these were existing Digicel Cup franchises, it would leave 6 or 7 behind as I mentioned.

One other thought on this. During the Hunters` premiership-winning year they were regularly packing out the national stadium. Whilst if their fans saw footage of away games, they`d see pretty thin crowds. Would this matter? i.e. if the Hunters and Vipers garnered all the publicity away from the Digicel Cup, and people persistently saw how little interest there was in the Q Cup in Aus, could it drag PNG RL crowd support down nearer to that level?

5 or 6 teams in the Qld cup is simply ridiculous.

The Vipers could have a team in both if they wanted creating a direct pathway. 

I don't think popularity will change in PNG. It's like saying soccer would see a drop in Brazil because of X. It just won't happen.

[unapologetic pedant]

2 hours ago, Pulga said:

5 or 6 teams in the Qld cup is simply ridiculous.

The Vipers could have a team in both if they wanted creating a direct pathway. 

I don't think popularity will change in PNG. It's like saying soccer would see a drop in Brazil because of X. It just won't happen.

You`ll have to address your view of 5 or 6 PNG teams in Aus comps directly to the member who wanted that to be the strategy. Be gentle though. He has a fragile ego.

Your suggested model for the Vipers is the same as Catalans and Toulouse over here. I still think there`s a question mark over both Q Cup PNG teams being based in Port Moresby. The potential economic benefits might be better spread around to somewhere like Lae.

[The Great Dane]

Despite assuring everyone that they wouldn't need any financial assistance the Hunters have had some financial struggles, and have received at least one grant from the NRL. Now I don't really have a problem with that, every start up business underestimates how much they'll need in start up funds and a bit of assistance isn't a big deal, but it doesn't make much sense to add a competitor to the market while the first club is still struggling for financial stability, especially when you'll just end up underwriting that competitor as well.

Adding more clubs from overseas also creates a greater barrier to entry for new local clubs from smaller country town, when one of the greatest things that could ever happen for RL would be if the NRL could stop the slow death of the sport in the Bush and get as many fans in the bush as possible actively engaging with the sport on a regular basis. 

Honestly well supported clubs in all the major country towns in NSW and Qld would be enormous for the sport, and maintaining and growing the sport in Australia is why the QRL, NSWRL, and NRL exist...

[Davo5]

5 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

Despite assuring everyone that they wouldn't need any financial assistance the Hunters have had some financial struggles, and have received at least one grant from the NRL. Now I don't really have a problem with that, every start up business underestimates how much they'll need in start up funds and a bit of assistance isn't a big deal, but it doesn't make much sense to add a competitor to the market while the first club is still struggling for financial stability, especially when you'll just end up underwriting that competitor as well.

Adding more clubs from overseas also creates a greater barrier to entry for new local clubs from smaller country town, when one of the greatest things that could ever happen for RL would be if the NRL could stop the slow death of the sport in the Bush and get as many fans in the bush as possible actively engaging with the sport on a regular basis. 

Honestly well supported clubs in all the major country towns in NSW and Qld would be enormous for the sport, and maintaining and growing the sport in Australia is why the QRL, NSWRL, and NRL exist...

So getting an NRL grant is a valid reason to abandon expansion & development in the Pacific islands.

Should Melbourne & the Gold Coast have been abandoned when the relied on handouts,should further expansion to Perth etc be abandoned.

 

 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

Championship and League One clubs receive funding from Super League, I don’t see how that’s any different.

[The Great Dane]

4 hours ago, Davo5 said:

So getting an NRL grant is a valid reason to abandon expansion & development in the Pacific islands.

Should Melbourne & the Gold Coast have been abandoned when the relied on handouts,should further expansion to Perth etc be abandoned.

 

 

Did you even read what I said?

I mean I literally said that the grants themselves aren’t a problem, but that creating a direct competitor for a business that is struggling a bit and needs financial aid isn’t a very good idea.

But if we are being honest with ourselves is it really the NRL’s place to be propping up teams from PNG anyway. Especially when A. it comes at the expense of growth in Australia, and B. they wouldn’t do it for any of the second tier teams in Australia.

[Davo5]

46 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

Did you even read what I said?

I mean I literally said that the grants themselves aren’t a problem, but that creating a direct competitor for a business that is struggling a bit and needs financial aid isn’t a very good idea.

But if we are being honest with ourselves is it really the NRL’s place to be propping up teams from PNG anyway. Especially when A. it comes at the expense of growth in Australia, and B. they wouldn’t do it for any of the second tier teams in Australia.

They are hardly propping up PNG teams now are they,but given the ever increasing numbers of Islanders lighting up the NRL and the fact they receive income from the tests played around Origin then yes they should continue to provide development funds.

[The Great Dane]

2 hours ago, Davo5 said:

They are hardly propping up PNG teams now are they,but given the ever increasing numbers of Islanders lighting up the NRL and the fact they receive income from the tests played around Origin then yes they should continue to provide development funds.

Pfft, the Hunters probably wouldn't be around today if the NRL hadn't agreed to providing "necessary funding"...

Every Islander in the NRL is taking a spot that could have been taken by an Australian, and if we are being honest with ourselves it'd be better for the sport in this country if they were taken by Australians. The influx in Islanders has also correlated in a growing trend in Australia of young kids being pushed towards Aussie Rules over RL by their parents (primarily by their mothers if we are being honest), which among other problems is going to bite us in the ###### in a generation or two unless we find workable ways to deal with it.

Surely you are joking about the Pacific tests. They're a charity case that wouldn't happen at all if the NRL didn't prop them up, which is the theme isn't it, the NRL propping things up that are neither sustainable nor any of their business at the expense of the game locally with little expectation of a significant return on the investment.

The NRL is very quickly becoming the firefighter whose house burns down during the bushfire while he's off saving other peoples, and it won't be good for anyone if/when that happens.

[Davo5]

15 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

Pfft, the Hunters probably wouldn't be around today if the NRL hadn't agreed to providing "necessary funding"...

Every Islander in the NRL is taking a spot that could have been taken by an Australian, and if we are being honest with ourselves it'd be better for the sport in this country if they were taken by Australians. The influx in Islanders has also correlated in a growing trend in Australia of young kids being pushed towards Aussie Rules over RL by their parents (primarily by their mothers if we are being honest), which among other problems is going to bite us in the ###### in a generation or two unless we find workable ways to deal with it.

Surely you are joking about the Pacific tests. They're a charity case that wouldn't happen at all if the NRL didn't prop them up, which is the theme isn't it, the NRL propping things up that are neither sustainable nor any of their business at the expense of the game locally with little expectation of a significant return on the investment.

The NRL is very quickly becoming the firefighter whose house burns down during the bushfire while he's off saving other peoples, and it won't be good for anyone if/when that happens.

My you talk some tripe.

No foreign players !! 
How do you think that will effect attendances,how do you think broadcasters will react when the comp is stripped of some of its biggest stars.

Maybe kids are encouraged to play AFL because they don’t come up against clampetts like you and prefer a sport that looks beyond its  old boundaries.

[ELBOWSEYE]

On 02/11/2020 at 07:37, Eddie said:

Fabulous news. Any chance of Tonga and Samoa following suit?

Have they got the population size to do this, the majority of players in the Aussies comps and NZ comps (both codes) are 2nd or 3rd generation players. And these players are already in the systems. 

[UTK]

4 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

Pfft, the Hunters probably wouldn't be around today if the NRL hadn't agreed to providing "necessary funding"...

Every Islander in the NRL is taking a spot that could have been taken by an Australian, and if we are being honest with ourselves it'd be better for the sport in this country if they were taken by Australians. The influx in Islanders has also correlated in a growing trend in Australia of young kids being pushed towards Aussie Rules over RL by their parents (primarily by their mothers if we are being honest), which among other problems is going to bite us in the ###### in a generation or two unless we find workable ways to deal with it.

Surely you are joking about the Pacific tests. They're a charity case that wouldn't happen at all if the NRL didn't prop them up, which is the theme isn't it, the NRL propping things up that are neither sustainable nor any of their business at the expense of the game locally with little expectation of a significant return on the investment.

The NRL is very quickly becoming the firefighter whose house burns down during the bushfire while he's off saving other peoples, and it won't be good for anyone if/when that happens.

If the NRL wants to continue to add more teams it needs more playing talent. There are 9 million people in PNG, the majority of whom live and breathe rugby league (even more than those in NSW/QLD rural areas). There is currently one player in the NRL that played all their formative rugby league in PNG. There is simply no comparison between the untapped potential of the PNG player pool and the as you unfortunately are correct in pointing out struggling bush football.

Investment in PNG is an investment in the future playing pool of the NRL, one that if correctly supported will pay dividends on a scale greater than any similar opportunity currently available to the sport.

 

[Pulga]

4 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

Pfft, the Hunters probably wouldn't be around today if the NRL hadn't agreed to providing "necessary funding"...

Every Islander in the NRL is taking a spot that could have been taken by an Australian, and if we are being honest with ourselves it'd be better for the sport in this country if they were taken by Australians. The influx in Islanders has also correlated in a growing trend in Australia of young kids being pushed towards Aussie Rules over RL by their parents (primarily by their mothers if we are being honest), which among other problems is going to bite us in the ###### in a generation or two unless we find workable ways to deal with it.

Surely you are joking about the Pacific tests. They're a charity case that wouldn't happen at all if the NRL didn't prop them up, which is the theme isn't it, the NRL propping things up that are neither sustainable nor any of their business at the expense of the game locally with little expectation of a significant return on the investment.

The NRL is very quickly becoming the firefighter whose house burns down during the bushfire while he's off saving other peoples, and it won't be good for anyone if/when that happens.

This type of attitude is the reason why the game is basically dead in England.

The NRL is doing well. They have all the best players coming in through pipelines throughout the world, especially in the Pacific. The Pacific island connection to the NRL is a massive strength, not a weakness. It's also why the GB Lions lost every game on the last tour. The NRL has strengthened these nations to a point where England will struggle to keep up. I know it's hard to swallow but here we are.

[The Rocket]

5 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

Every Islander in the NRL is taking a spot that could have been taken by an Australian, and if we are being honest with ourselves it'd be better for the sport in this country if they were taken by Australians. The influx in Islanders has also correlated in a growing trend in Australia of young kids being pushed towards Aussie Rules over RL by their parents (primarily by their mothers if we are being honest), which among other problems is going to bite us in the ###### in a generation or two unless we find workable ways to deal with it.

 

The reality is that most of the Islander kids that play League of course are Australian Citizens. My son played in a tournament for u12`s a few years back and the teams that came from Parramatta and other parts of Western Sydney were like men. It has been an issue for years  and they have talked making it weight categories etc. but then there is the problem of the big soft kid being stuck in with these young behemoths and also just numbers, it would seem that the League need to monitor it on the field to keep the rough verging on violent play out of it. Most of the problems I have seen have come from a particularly large strong kids rag-dolling smaller kids, which is a very bad look and dangerous, that has to be stamped out, just the way the SBW shoulder charge had crept into kids football a few years back but was successfully eradicated, the lead coming from the NRL.

Because you are dead right about the Mums, they don`t like it and will insist on alternatives. For gods sake there are afl goal posts in our town now and soccer is as strong as ever while League struggles to scrape one team per age category  in a town of 20 000.

[The Rocket]

54 minutes ago, Pulga said:

This type of attitude is the reason why the game is basically dead in England.

The NRL is doing well. They have all the best players coming in through pipelines throughout the world, especially in the Pacific. The Pacific island connection to the NRL is a massive strength, not a weakness. It's also why the GB Lions lost every game on the last tour. The NRL has strengthened these nations to a point where England will struggle to keep up. I know it's hard to swallow but here we are.

When I suggested 5 or 6 teams out of PNG and you described it as `ridiculous` my main reasoning was based on the population of PNG, just ticked over 9 million, their enthusiasm for League and an interest in the development of that country, both my Grandfather and his twin brother fought there in WW11.

Your response forced me to go and have a look at the population spread of that country and I have to admit I was ignorant of the fact that there was only really two large population centres, incredible for a country that big, I was assuming that with a population of 9 million there would have to be several large population centres of 100-200 000+. Wrong. The lack of these certainly discounts any likely chance of more teams for the Intrust Super Cup. Lae does hold promise being a University and Manufacturing hub and apparently on the main road link into the highlands.

PNG is of course a resource rich country, relatively stable government and strategically placed so I expect to see a lot more investment in that country as the west tries to fend off Chinese interest there, combined with urbanisation, certainly the goal of more teams from there may not be so unrealistic perhaps in the medium to longer term. Good day.

 

[Pulga]

1 hour ago, The Rocket said:

When I suggested 5 or 6 teams out of PNG and you described it as `ridiculous` my main reasoning was based on the population of PNG, just ticked over 9 million, their enthusiasm for League and an interest in the development of that country, both my Grandfather and his twin brother fought there in WW11.

Your response forced me to go and have a look at the population spread of that country and I have to admit I was ignorant of the fact that there was only really two large population centres, incredible for a country that big, I was assuming that with a population of 9 million there would have to be several large population centres of 100-200 000+. Wrong. The lack of these certainly discounts any likely chance of more teams for the Intrust Super Cup. Lae does hold promise being a University and Manufacturing hub and apparently on the main road link into the highlands.

PNG is of course a resource rich country, relatively stable government and strategically placed so I expect to see a lot more investment in that country as the west tries to fend off Chinese interest there, combined with urbanisation, certainly the goal of more teams from there may not be so unrealistic perhaps in the medium to longer term. Good day.

 

I was also surprised to see that there are no large cities in PNG. Seems incorrect though. I'm no expert though.

I think the best thing we could do for rugby league would be to pull PNG out of poverty.

[nadera78]

8 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

Pfft, the Hunters probably wouldn't be around today if the NRL hadn't agreed to providing "necessary funding"...

Every Islander in the NRL is taking a spot that could have been taken by an Australian, and if we are being honest with ourselves it'd be better for the sport in this country if they were taken by Australians. The influx in Islanders has also correlated in a growing trend in Australia of young kids being pushed towards Aussie Rules over RL by their parents (primarily by their mothers if we are being honest), which among other problems is going to bite us in the ###### in a generation or two unless we find workable ways to deal with it.

Surely you are joking about the Pacific tests. They're a charity case that wouldn't happen at all if the NRL didn't prop them up, which is the theme isn't it, the NRL propping things up that are neither sustainable nor any of their business at the expense of the game locally with little expectation of a significant return on the investment.

The NRL is very quickly becoming the firefighter whose house burns down during the bushfire while he's off saving other peoples, and it won't be good for anyone if/when that happens.

This is up there with your claim that New Zealand RL doesn't produce any players.

[The Great Dane]

18 hours ago, Davo5 said:

My you talk some tripe.

No foreign players !! 
How do you think that will effect attendances,how do you think broadcasters will react when the comp is stripped of some of its biggest stars.

Maybe kids are encouraged to play AFL because they don’t come up against clampetts like you and prefer a sport that looks beyond its  old boundaries.

My talk is fine, you are just incapable of engaging it honestly!

For example I never said there should be a ban on foreign players, you've just built that straw man because it's easier to argue against that point then the one I was making.

BTW, we know exactly why kids are being pushed towards AFL, soccer, and basketball over RL, RU, boxing, etc, at an ever increasing rate. The parents that are doing the pushing aren't the least bit shy about their reasoning, especially after CTE became a well known issue.

Without going into too much detail, people have the perception that RL, RU, etc are much more dangerous sports than AFL, soccer, etc, and particularly don't like it when a significantly larger kid plays and dominants (those significantly larger kids being disproportionately represented by Polynesians). This leads them to demand changes that have their own negative effects, such as banning tackling till an older age (which actually leads to more injuries), or divisions based on weight instead of age (which leads to the larger kids and their families becoming disenfranchised).

It's a complex situation, and I don't claim to have any solutions to the problem, but ignoring it because it's inconvenient isn't going to make it go away.

[The Great Dane]

14 hours ago, UTK said:

If the NRL wants to continue to add more teams it needs more playing talent. There are 9 million people in PNG, the majority of whom live and breathe rugby league (even more than those in NSW/QLD rural areas). There is currently one player in the NRL that played all their formative rugby league in PNG. There is simply no comparison between the untapped potential of the PNG player pool and the as you unfortunately are correct in pointing out struggling bush football.

Investment in PNG is an investment in the future playing pool of the NRL, one that if correctly supported will pay dividends on a scale greater than any similar opportunity currently available to the sport.

 

Without even mentioning the almost completely untapped talent pools in "the affiliated states", there's probably just as much talent in country NSW and Qld that gets overlooked due to lack of opportunity, and more often than not is lost to the game as a result, as there is in PNG and probably the rest of the PI's put together.

The talent is there, it just needs a better system and more opportunity, and more teams from overseas is a further roadblock to that opportunity.