2 Clubs Short

[LeytherRob]

5 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

1. Again. I haven't mentioned blowouts in the championship 

2. Yes  to crystallise those differences and give a more gradual curve. Where you don't go from dominating to being battered. 

3. It is expanding it. Right now 14 teams can win it. Under the suggestion 24 teams could win it. All you're stressing about nomenclature doesn't alter how it works in practice.

4. You can of course do that. And doing so doesn't negate the reason for doing it. It is an integral part of it.

5. But the difference would not be as great. Full time professionalism, the money spent on training facilities, recovery, physiotherapy, and squad depth are the reasons those gaps grow. Those differences are less pronounced between the championship and l1. And again the seeding system would mitigate this even further. In the regular season. The team at the top of the third conference would play 22 of its 30 games against teams within 8 places of it. 

6. It is. Because they are all competing for the same prize. Take out the shorthand of P+R and replace it with 'seeding' and your argument fails but the way it works in practice stays exactly the same. 

1. You have, you mentioned the 2 divisions in the championship.

2. A system where Swinton can play Toulouse 1 week and Coventry the next, then Leigh the week after and West Wales following. "A system where you don't go from dominating to being battered". Cool.

3. 24 teams are theoretically capable of winning the championship now, they are just 1 promotion away.

4. Every example you've tried to give doesn't have all the features of your desired competition(with good reason). So name a competition, anywhere, at any point in history, that has a seeded conference with P&R between and an all encompassing playoff system, let along one that has succeeded. I'll wait... 

5. Once again a great point, there *is* a huge chasm in training facilities, recovery, physiotherapy and squad depth between SL and C, and that is the reason those gaps grow. Guess what? Same chasm between C and L1. 

6. P&R and seeding are not interchangeable terms in a conference system. I'll say the same thing as I did on the thread about the East/West conference split idea for the championship, mixing the divisions has been done, it was called the buddies cup, the arriva trains cup, the northern rail cup... they all had a group stage and everyone had a 'chance' to win it. Until the quarter/semis it was the same mess every year with a series of glorified friendlies played in front of uninterested crowds until it was eventually disbanded. 

 

Good news is I have finally found an answer to my question you couldn't answer - where/when a system has existed previously that looks like the one you've described. What you've done is bring back the northern rail cup, moved it to the end of the year and called it a grand final. Bravo.

[LeytherRob]

20 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

Its a league structure that doesn't really suit our needs. 

Let's say Toulouse are promoted, it works wonderfully and French TV say this is brilliant two teams in France in sl and we will pay £5m a year for the rights but we need a guarantee of 2 French teams. Do we stick with what we have?

It isn't just about forcing fans to accept it. In fact I'd say that's quite low down the priority list. Its about creating an environment where we can achieve our goals. We didn't come up with this system as a system we can use to achieve our goals. We came up with this system because some championship clubs demanded it in return for the SL split that wasn't really a split. And even then, it wasn't the championship clubs first choice. 

None of that has anything to do with if the game below SL is 2x12's, 3x8's or your mental proposal though. P&R between SL&C is a completely separate discussion.

[LeytherRob]

1 hour ago, Scotchy1 said:

One thing that the NFL system does really well is that it creates a play offs that isn't just the same teams playing each other again. The superbowl is, more often than not, the first time those teams have played 

Much easier to do with a draft system that gives the lowest ranking teams first pick of the best youngsters each year though isn't it? 

[Scotchy1]

3 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

1. You have, you mentioned the 2 divisions in the championship.

2. A system where Swinton can play Toulouse 1 week and Coventry the next, then Leigh the week after and West Wales following. "A system where you don't go from dominating to being battered". Cool.

3. 24 teams are theoretically capable of winning the championship now, they are just 1 promotion away.

4. Every example you've tried to give doesn't have all the features of your desired competition(with good reason). So name a competition, anywhere, at any point in history, that has a seeded conference with P&R between and an all encompassing playoff system, let along one that has succeeded. I'll wait... 

5. Once again a great point, there *is* a huge chasm in training facilities, recovery, physiotherapy and squad depth between SL and C, and that is the reason those gaps grow. Guess what? Same chasm between C and L1. 

6. P&R and seeding are not interchangeable terms in a conference system. I'll say the same thing as I did on the thread about the East/West conference split idea for the championship, mixing the divisions has been done, it was called the buddies cup, the arriva trains cup, the northern rail cup... they all had a group stage and everyone had a 'chance' to win it. Until the quarter/semis it was the same mess every year with a series of glorified friendlies played in front of uninterested crowds until it was eventually disbanded. 

 

Good news is I have finally found an answer to my question you couldn't answer - where/when a system has existed previously that looks like the one you've described. What you've done is bring back the northern rail cup, moved it to the end of the year and called it a grand final. Bravo.

1.  Which is  different thing.

2. Yes a gradual curve. Where you play some teams better than you  some worse but most around your level. 

3. So they aren't capable of winning it now then.

4. Again you are getting hung up on nomenclature. Change P+R for seeding. A seeded group stage then play off is very common. 

5. Except it isn't the same difference. The one from SL to the championship is much bigger. 

6. Lower league Cup comps always struggle. This isn't a lower league Cup. The change for a team like leigh would be exchanging 6 games against the bottom of the championship with games against l1 sides and adding an extra 2 on. 

Also.remember that 2 of those teams swap places anyway.

[Scotchy1]

8 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Much easier to do with a draft system that gives the lowest ranking teams first pick of the best youngsters each year though isn't it? 

The post that was in response to was about keeping what we have now. That is an example where what we have doesn't work.

An example purely for l1 and the championship would be what do we do if another team drops out of l1? Just leave them to struggle with 14 games?

[Scotchy1]

10 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Much easier to do with a draft system that gives the lowest ranking teams first pick of the best youngsters each year though isn't it? 

I'm not against that but thats not really what I was taking about.

In most seasons, because of the way the game is structure there, teams play less than half of the other sides. That means generally the sperbowl teams don't play each other in league play. 

That is one of the benefits of a conference system like they have.

[Smudger06]

1 minute ago, Scotchy1 said:

The post that was in response to was about keeping what we have now. That is an example where what we have doesn't work.

An example purely for l1 and the championship would be what do we do if another team drops out of l1? Just leave them to struggle with 14 games?

No ones gave it chance to work yet lol. It literally changed prior to 2019. Its had one season. Didn't see any1 complaining when the system promoted TWP,  if Toulouse don't win the bid & earn on field promotion in this system in 2021, I reckon no one will be damning the system to hell then either. 

[Scotchy1]

Just now, Smudger06 said:

No ones gave it chance to work yet lol. It literally changed prior to 2019. Its had one season. Didn't see any1 complaining when the system promoted TWP,  if Toulouse don't win the bid & earn on field promotion in this system in 2021, I reckon no one will be damning the system to hell then either. 

People did still criticise the system and would should toulousr be promoted.

Those two are examples of it not working. Even despite them getting to SL. The structure made it impossible to use that to its potential. 

What do we do if French TV want guarantees of French participation if they are to pay for tv rights?

[Smudger06]

5 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

People did still criticise the system and would should toulousr be promoted.

Those two are examples of it not working. Even despite them getting to SL. The structure made it impossible to use that to its potential. 

What do we do if French TV want guarantees of French participation if they are to pay for tv rights?

You don't run things on the off chance it'll please a French TV Company. 

[Scotchy1]

2 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

You don't run things on the off chance it'll please a French TV Company. 

If you are trying to sell something to them you kind of have to. 

It certainly doesn't make sense to try and sell something to them but not really understand what they want or how you would provide that for them

[graveyard johnny]

5 hours ago, Cumbrian Mackem said:

Would be nice to see Manchester and Bristol.

not fussed for seeing a Manchester but always open to seeing a Bristol 

[Smudger06]

6 hours ago, Bearman said:

Source please.

Mike Critchley, st helens star. 

[Smudger06]

22 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

If you are trying to sell something to them you kind of have to. 

It certainly doesn't make sense to try and sell something to them but not really understand what they want or how you would provide that for them

Robert Elstone understood what they wanted though, BeIN made it clear, what they wanted was freebies. 

[LeytherRob]

32 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

1.  Which is  different thing.

2. Yes a gradual curve. Where you play some teams better than you  some worse but most around your level. 

3. So they aren't capable of winning it now then.

4. Again you are getting hung up on nomenclature. Change P+R for seeding. A seeded group stage then play off is very common. 

5. Except it isn't the same difference. The one from SL to the championship is much bigger. 

6. Lower league Cup comps always struggle. This isn't a lower league Cup. The change for a team like leigh would be exchanging 6 games against the bottom of the championship with games against l1 sides and adding an extra 2 on. 

Also.remember that 2 of those teams swap places anyway.

1.You argued that there was too big a gap between championship clubs

2. So a divisional structure then? Cool

3. They have the same chance in your system than the current one. Just like they had the same chance of winning the Northern Rail Cup.

4. You haven't described seeding, you've described a promotion and relegation system. You can call it whatever you want, it's still promotion and relegation, the strong teams end up in group 1, group A, championship, whatever you want to call it and the file in behind. It's a pyramid - i.e. you start at the bottom and the more games you win, the higher the group you end up in. At this point you may as well be trying to argue the sky is purple.

5. It's not bigger though, and you have zero to back that up. It's remarkably similar and all the evidence, both in cup games and the middle eights back that up. 

6. They do, mainly because fans aren't that interested in mismatched games against teams outside of their ability. They aren't particularly enthused with contrived competitions either. Everyone pretty much hated the 8 team playoffs because it they thought it was pointless that a team like Leeds could have a mediocre season, finish 5th and pull a run together to win the comp. What you are suggesting is a league system where the teams ranked 1-4th,9-11th and 17th-18th compete in playoffs. It's exactly like the lower league cup comps because it's completely detached from the league system.

 

 

[Hela Wigmen]

1 hour ago, Smudger06 said:

Mike Critchley, st helens star. 

There’s nothing on Mike’s Twitter account or the St Helens Star website. 

[Smudger06]

3 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

There’s nothing on Mike’s Twitter account or the St Helens Star website. 

Toronto (jacked it in, then reapplication rejected) + Ottawa (2021 start deferred till 2022?) = 2 (Clubs Short) 

Quoting Mike in the St Helens rag...... 'The RFL will communicate shortly with Betfred League 1 clubs about the implications of the vacancy created in the Betfred Championship – which will mean the 2021 season begins with two fewer clubs than previously expected outside the Betfred Super League, following the deferral of the entry of Ottawa Aces into League 1 until 2022'

[Hela Wigmen]

7 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Toronto (jacked it in, then reapplication rejected) + Ottawa (2021 start deferred till 2022?) = 2 (Clubs Short) 

Quoting Mike in the St Helens rag...... 'The RFL will communicate shortly with Betfred League 1 clubs about the implications of the vacancy created in the Betfred Championship – which will mean the 2021 season begins with two fewer clubs than previously expected outside the Betfred Super League, following the deferral of the entry of Ottawa Aces into League 1 until 2022'

So nothing to do with adding any new clubs.

[Ramon Rojo]

I'd jump at anywhere that stakes a claim for the untapped South West.

Cornwall in particular is terminally encapsulated amidst a quality sport famine. Football is comparable to pub league here and the population is force fed the Exeter Chiefs (from Devon) on every evenings tv local news. Plenty of locals have voiced discontent regards the current diet of poor quality kick and clap, the dross witnessed in recent Internationals has compounded this. The rare glimpse of Super League they received via mainstream Grand Final publicity had them questioning why nobody pushes RL down here more forcibly?

I'd even go for a Bristol option (it's still a 3 hour drive).

There is more respect for our game down here than people realise

[Smudger06]

8 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

So nothing to do with adding any new clubs.

Clubs 

+ 2 

(Ottawa & NYC RL) 

Would be an addition. 

However......

The title of the thread though is '2 Clubs Short' which implies a subtraction not an addition. So would be;

Clubs 

- Two 

(Hemel & Toronto) 

A subtraction, hence 2 Clubs short, a statement, the title of the thread. So yes, nothing to do with adding two clubs obviously. 

I then ask a question '''?''' 

Where do they find 2 Clubs ? Ottawa & NY in 2022 yes ok (oh adding clubs! Well actually more like replacing)......but what about 2021 and the very real possibility of those two not materialising in 2022. ?

Do you not think we are 2 Clubs short? ? Lacking 2 Clubs as the St Helens Star and others report. 11 in SL and 11 in L1 or just 10 in League 1 is intentional.......

 

[Hela Wigmen]

13 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Clubs 

+ 2 

(Ottawa & NYC RL) 

Would be an addition. 

However......

The title of the thread though is '2 Clubs Short' which implies a subtraction not an addition. So would be;

Clubs 

- Two 

(Hemel & Toronto) 

A subtraction, hence 2 Clubs short, a statement, the title of the thread. So yes, nothing to do with adding two clubs obviously. 

I then ask a question '''?''' 

Where do they find 2 Clubs ? Ottawa & NY in 2022 yes ok (oh adding clubs! Well actually more like replacing)......but what about 2021 and the very real possibility of those two not materialising in 2022. ?

Do you not think we are 2 Clubs short? ? Lacking 2 Clubs as the St Helens Star and others report. 11 in SL and 11 in L1 or just 10 in League 1 is intentional.......

 

The article, or should I say paragraph, you’ve linked has no reference to the addition of any teams, as you alluded to in your first post. 

[Harry Stottle]

15 hours ago, Eddie said:

Wasn’t that years ago? They only get about 500 to their games, they’d need a lot of investment to be able to do it. Also the risk of seriously weakening Elite 1 if their top clubs did join our system. 

What has any of that to do with anything relevant Eddie? 

There are those on here who believe that if another two French clubs get the nod overnight French lads will be clamouring in their Thousands to play the game, SL should also fasttrack these along with Toulouse and relegate 3 British clubs, keep P&R but protect these and Catalan from Relegation until the moon turns green, new attendance records will be set all over Europe and France will win the WC in 12 years time.

It's all very simple, it should be done immediately.

[Harry Stottle]

11 hours ago, Scotchy1 said:

People did still criticise the system and would should toulousr be promoted.

You really do make things up don't you, have a look back on all different who should get 12th place thread, most of the contenders say they would sooner play for promotion on the field of play, that being those clubs involved that is not those who are not involved in the process,  whoever wins on the field including Toulouse would have earned it

 

[Smudger06]

This is exactly the main problem we have. Something comes in and straight away people are screaming that it doesn't work when the reality is it hasn't even bedded in, never mind been given proper time to assess. Then we change yet again and people thinking about following the sport are turned off, we look like idiots changing a sports league every two minutes and its hard to grasp whats going on in any particular season for newbies. They just thing its ad hoc, improvised, unorganised garbage.......

[Tommygilf]

14 hours ago, iffleyox said:

It's never been that welcoming to outside fans anyway unless they've done the work IMO... I don't mean that too badly, but as a public school southerner who keeps turning up in RL towns to watch matches we've actually had overt hostility in pubs until it's clear we're genuine*. I don't mean that most people on here couldn't knock my knowledge of the game into a cocked hat without breaking sweat, but with the exception of Wakefield and Batley, who seemed to be falling over themselves to thank us for coming, it's got a bit gritty almost everywhere else in the last 10 years** and would have been worse if we'd not been able to demonstrate a basic grip of the sport to an angry drunk looking to pick a fight. Castleford and St Helens, I'm looking at you in particular. In the case of Cas we were actually rescued by an apologetic group who insisted on meeting us the next day and walking us to the ground... and it's since become one of my favourite weekends.

IMO with RL you have to work to be accepted as a fan unless you were born to it. That's a source of incredible strength and a massive weakness simultaneously.

 

 

*It's pretty well always ended up with mutual buying of rounds and everyone happy to be fair

**and yes, I have considered that the problem is us - but honestly, 2-3 people obviously not from round here and sounding a bit 'posh' is hardly the Bullingdon Club

Sadly I have to agree with you. As an anecdote, a bloke from Hull accused me and my mate (who have been Leeds season ticket holders since we were born and his dad played for Sheffield!) of being "rugby Union fans" for saying we liked the idea of Toronto Wolfpack the night before the 2016 cup final. I think he was intimidated by us being able to string together a coherent sentence after 6 pints frankly.

You get half-wits at any club, I know there are plenty at Leeds! But being little more than a village sport means you are more than likely getting a lot of village idiots in at some teams grounds as a percentage. That value is placed by them in how long they've been involved in or know the game is tragic, but maybe that's all they've got going for them.

I totally empathise with the nice apologetic fans you met, I'd have been one of them in the same scenario. Parochialism may be a strength but when it comes out like that its simply embarrassing. 

[Smudger06]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

You really do make things up don't you, have a look back on all different who should get 12th place thread, most of the contenders say they would sooner play for promotion on the field of play, that being those clubs involved that is not those who are not involved in the process,  whoever wins on the field including Toulouse would have earned it

 

The only people who criticised the system were a few fanatical and very vocal closed shoppers........the usual 20 people.