Promotion & Relegation/Licencing hybrid system

[Jughead]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

How ? , Feel free to explain that one ?

The disparity between Leigh (and Fev) and the vast majority of the Championship, who are part-time, both are going through the motions for twenty-odd rounds before the meaningful stuff actually begins in the play-offs. In Super League, there is at least some parity between the sides in respect that they’re all full-time. 

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Jughead said:

The disparity between Leigh (and Fev) and the vast majority of the Championship, who are part-time, both are going through the motions for twenty-odd rounds before the meaningful stuff actually begins in the play-offs. In Super League, there is at least some parity between the sides in respect that they’re all full-time. 

Given ( as we currently understand it ) that the highest finishing team will get home advantage , then dropping points will make a massive difference IMO 

 

[JAG]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

Ok , so your system comes in , I'm a Leigh fan , there is a possibility of promotion to SL in 4 years , ok , so I'll not bother going until year 4 , and only then if it looks like they might get it 

That'll work

That's your choice.

 

1 hour ago, Barley Mow said:

So basically the good times and bad times could come in four year blocks for teams rather than one year. That could be a positive or a negative for clubs depending on individual circumstances.

The only other thing this is saying is that the RFL (or whoever) could just decide how many clubs to promote/relegate depending on who was in favour at the end of each four year period. That doesn't scream consistency and forward planning to me.

Nothing has changed regarding your proposal since it was last discussed. If you have additional points, I will offer you more of my valued input!  Otherwise I think the last 8 pages cover everything pretty well.

M proposal doesn't need to change as the problems have been consistent year on year, teams can't bridge the gap between SL and Champ in one year.  We can't afford to lose big clubs for one season slumps or lose potentially successful clubs too quickly and we need to engage more clubs into challenging for realistic promotion possibilities.

The example of changing how many teams can come up or come down demonstrates the model's flexibility. If we could have a 14 or 16 team SL full of genuine strong contenders who'd want to see 4 of them relegated? It can be managed without a full scale restructure. This model rewards off field consistency and on-field performance, this is the pathway to a stronger, more competitive and expanded SL.

[GUBRATS]

21 minutes ago, Jughead said:

The disparity between Leigh (and Fev) and the vast majority of the Championship, who are part-time, both are going through the motions for twenty-odd rounds before the meaningful stuff actually begins in the play-offs. In Super League, there is at least some parity between the sides in respect that they’re all full-time. 

So you want a part time second tier ? 

[GUBRATS]

11 minutes ago, JAG said:

That's your choice.

 

M proposal doesn't need to change as the problems have been consistent year on year, teams can't bridge the gap between SL and Champ in one year.  We can't afford to lose big clubs for one season slumps or lose potentially successful clubs too quickly and we need to engage more clubs into challenging for realistic promotion possibilities.

The example of changing how many teams can come up or come down demonstrates the model's flexibility. If we could have a 14 or 16 team SL full of genuine strong contenders who'd want to see 4 of them relegated? It can be managed without a full scale restructure. This model rewards off field consistency and on-field performance, this is the pathway to a stronger, more competitive and expanded SL.

That'd be the choice of lots of fans 

[JAG]

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

That'd be the choice of lots of fans 

So all Halifax, Bradford, Widnes, Barrow, Workington, Whitehaven, Dewsbury, London, Sheffield and Newcastle fans are mugs becasue their team can't/won't get promoted?

Toronto Wolfpack fans feel like mugs becasue they got behind a team that wasn't sustainable in SL or given a chance to thrive. New fans of Toulouse are going to feel like mugs after this season for getting behind a team that wasn't given a true crack at SL. Leigh fans might feel like mugs for being the best in the League one year then get embarrassed the next, living in limbo all the time. Featherstone Rovers fans might feel like mugs if they lose their 3rd Grand Final in a row meaning the last few season still counts for nothing.

Imagine the fans/investments that could have been made if London and Toulouse could have brought to the game if their stay in SL was for 4 years? Think how much SL would lose including fans if Leeds got relegated for one bad season?

[Snowys Backside]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

So all Halifax, Bradford, Widnes, Barrow, Workington, Whitehaven, Dewsbury, London, Sheffield and Newcastle fans are mugs becasue their team can't/won't get promoted?

Toronto Wolfpack fans feel like mugs becasue they got behind a team that wasn't sustainable in SL or given a chance to thrive. New fans of Toulouse are going to feel like mugs after this season for getting behind a team that wasn't given a true crack at SL. Leigh fans might feel like mugs for being the best in the League one year then get embarrassed the next, living in limbo all the time. Featherstone Rovers fans might feel like mugs if they lose their 3rd Grand Final in a row meaning the last few season still counts for nothing.

Imagine the fans/investments that could have been made if London and Toulouse could have brought to the game if their stay in SL was for 4 years? Think how much SL would lose including fans if Leeds got relegated for one bad season?

Thats Sport.

Bloody great isn't it but I for one would be recommending SL to go to 14 Teams next season to bed in new blood, expand quality and to merge competitiveness in the Championship.

Oh, and it keeps Toulouse and Leeds up   (For my mate Sir Kev )

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

So you want a part time second tier ? 

No, but a lot more FT teams would be an improvement,

I actually agree with @Jughead in that has a Leigh fan - and no disrespect to other Championship clubs - there are to few league games this season that will test the team, take last Sunday it was not untill a couple of hours prior to kick off that I persuaded myself to go because I expected that it was going to be a one sided affair and dare I say boring, yes I gave in and went but looking at the attendance quite a number didn't.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Harry Stottle

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

York is a thriving city of 150,000 (so bigger than Wakey) with two universities and external investment with an appropriately sized modern stadium perfect for tv and hospitality.  

It doesn't matter the population, it is the number of people that are actually interested in the sport, if was down to population numbers London would be the best supported team easily, Salford and Huddersfield would have no worries, granted York have little in respect of live sport competition  in and around the city, but that can not be said about the football mad area of the North East and particularly Newcastle, whilst I appreciate your enthusiasm for these two teams I cannot share your belief in how successful both commercially and popularity in attendance they would be.

[Jughead]

13 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

So you want a part time second tier ? 

Yes.

How do Leigh grow as a club if they’re yo-yo’ing between divisions? They would be better served being in a full-time competition with opportunities to grow on and off the pitch. 

[JAG]

11 hours ago, Snowys Backside said:

Thats Sport.

Bloody great isn't it but I for one would be recommending SL to go to 14 Teams next season to bed in new blood, expand quality and to merge competitiveness in the Championship.

Oh, and it keeps Toulouse and Leeds up   (For my mate Sir Kev )

Yes it is great, it's even better when the chance of upward mobility applies to more clubs. The pathway to getting 14 teams in SL is achieved by this model, fairly and based on sustained, consistent performances on the pitch. 

After 4 years:

Bottom of SL era league Leeds, Salford, Wakefield, Toulouse.

Top of Championship era league Featherstone, Leigh, York, Halifax.

Losing Wakefield & Toulouse is considered fair but losing Leeds & Salford is a step too far. The answer; relegate 2 & promote all 4. Bingo! 14 team Super League.

[JAG]

5 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

As people already told you clubs in champ are watching because theres a chance, however slim, that their club might get promoted.

Fans dont feel like mugs for having teams go up and down,  thats widely accepted in the UK. Lets just call it what it is, franchising.

But if we are franchising then you would probably drop a few of the current top flight clubs now and award new franchises to different markets to let them plan accordingly. 

  

I go watching Bradford (when I can) and they aren't close to getting promoted nor have been for a long time.

It's not franchising becasue it's judged solely of on field performance and any club that can sustain a successful competitive club for 4 years running is a demonstrating their credentials of being a well run club.

This model is giving you exactly what you're asking for. It gives P&R but only to clubs who have consistently played well or consistently played poorly. 

It's possible Leigh Centurions & Toulouse could swap places in super league year in year out for 4 years, while Wakefield, Castleford & Salford just tread water by not finishing bottom. Why not see 4 ambitious, well run, competitive championship clubs promoted at once and judge them over a longer period e.g 4 years?

[Liverpool Rover]

6 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

As people already told you clubs in champ are watching because theres a chance, however slim, that their club might get promoted.

Fans dont feel like mugs for having teams go up and down,  thats widely accepted in the UK. Lets just call it what it is, franchising.

But if we are franchising then you would probably drop a few of the current top flight clubs now and award new franchises to different markets to let them plan accordingly. 

  

There is the chance of being promoted but it is what happens after promotion that is the problem. After a season of championship rugby the jump to the intensity of Super League rugby is a big one and recruiting players is difficult because you can only guarantee one year of being in Super League. 

[Jughead]

It’s thoroughly depressing that the argument for promotion and relegation being retained is “it gives some tiny part-time teams with no infrastructure a pipe dream that they might one day get to Super League”. 

 

[Harry Stottle]

9 minutes ago, Liverpool Rover said:

Super League rugby is a big one and recruiting players is difficult because you can only guarantee one year of being in Super League. 

Precisely, read Mr Beaumont's statement in this link:-

https://leighrl.co.uk/wp/v2/blog/2022/04/29/leigh-centurions-sign-international-superstar-winger-blake-ferguson/

He talks about next years recruitment meeting yesterday.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Harry Stottle

[Snowys Backside]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

Yes it is great, it's even better when the chance of upward mobility applies to more clubs. The pathway to getting 14 teams in SL is achieved by this model, fairly and based on sustained, consistent performances on the pitch. 

After 4 years:

Bottom of SL era league Leeds, Salford, Wakefield, Toulouse.

Top of Championship era league Featherstone, Leigh, York, Halifax.

Losing Wakefield & Toulouse is considered fair but losing Leeds & Salford is a step too far. The answer; relegate 2 & promote all 4. Bingo! 14 team Super League.

That wouldn't bother me one bit but you could say York and Fax would not be prepared. 

The SL clubs would be too strong and would deny such teams for another season. 

At Least Promoting Leigh and Fev would guarentee two new teams and give them 12 months knowing. 

Oh yes, 2 up and 2 down too! 

[JAG]

1 minute ago, Snowys Backside said:

That wouldn't bother me one bit but you could say York and Fax would not be prepared. 

The SL clubs would be too strong and would deny such teams for another season. 

At Least Promoting Leigh and Fev would guarentee two new teams and give them 12 months knowing. 

Oh yes, 2 up and 2 down too! 

That's a fair comment. It might not be feasible to have all 4 teams promoted but I think giving, for arguments sake, Halifax and York SL status four years isn't going to give you any less success than Wakefield have given in 24 years of SL status or Huddersfield have given in the last 9.

[JAG]

2 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

True, this is always an issue and fact promotion is decided later than end of SL season is an issue for me. Guess unless a club is already full time gets difficult. Toulouse had their own wierd circumstances this year with loss of two players and covid not making it easy to get players in. 

 

If the era league model is implemented the team at the top of Championship era league during season four will know before the end of the season they're pretty much destined for SL and can make the appropriate changes. Same goes for the club rock bottom of the SL era table during season four, they will have time to restructure and players will have time to let players know where they stand. It won't be within the last weeks or week of the season like in the MPG scenario. 

[Liverpool Rover]

On 29/04/2022 at 17:02, ShropshireBull said:

True, this is always an issue and fact promotion is decided later than end of SL season is an issue for me. Guess unless a club is already full time gets difficult. Toulouse had their own wierd circumstances this year with loss of two players and covid not making it easy to get players in. 

 

After today’s result the relegation battle is almost done and dusted and we aren’t even half way through the season. I thought that they would have a chance of staying up but then Ford and Kheirallah walked out which was a big blow for them.

[Jughead]

All rides on the Wakefield game, to bring it back to two points there’s still a slim chance, if the gap is six points, it’s done and dusted, which isn’t a real surprise given the circumstances of the structure around promotion and relegation and the issues they’ve faced as a club. 

But we’ll continue this rinse and repeat cycle of promotion and relegation pretending it’s actually a good thing for the clubs and the sport. 

[Harry Stottle]

27 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Taking away players who had been there for years was a body blow but a win against Wakey at home keeps it alive.  

Fact toulouse have to hand over 500000 is a joke. 

Wakey won't lose in Toulouse no matter how much a lot of people are hoping that they do, and no one took two player's away from Toulouse they decided to leave of their own fruition.

[Harry Stottle]

30 minutes ago, Jughead said:

But we’ll continue this rinse and repeat cycle of promotion and relegation pretending it’s actually a good thing for the clubs and the sport. 

It would be far duller without it, no question without relegation give it another couple of months and the season is over for half of the division, and no promotion means a dead end street, I was a fan of a Championship club all through the last franchise lock out, I would not be again B O R I N G.

[Jughead]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

It would be far duller without it, no question without relegation give it another couple of months and the season is over for half of the division, and no promotion means a dead end street, I was a fan of a Championship club all through the last franchise lock out, I would not be again B O R I N G.

It’s just as dull having relegation at present, as Leigh (twice), Toulouse and the brief time we had Toronto show(ed). The system simply doesn’t work and watching the same players James Cunningham, Eloi Pellissier, Matty Russell etc flit between promoted clubs is extremely boring. I don’t think promotion and relegation works, there’s evidence of this, I feel, also not aided by the way the game is set up.

The biggest change I would like to see is professional clubs and semi-professional clubs unable to be playing at the same level, it’s a waste of time for nearly everyone involved. 

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, Jughead said:

It’s just as dull having relegation at present, as Leigh (twice), Toulouse and the brief time we had Toronto show(ed). The system simply doesn’t work and watching the same players James Cunningham, Eloi Pellissier, Matty Russell etc flit between promoted clubs is extremely boring. I don’t think promotion and relegation works, there’s evidence of this, I feel, also not aided by the way the game is set up.

The biggest change I would like to see is professional clubs and semi-professional clubs unable to be playing at the same level, it’s a waste of time for nearly everyone involved. 

Your last paragraph would be much more telling if we did not have 2 divisions within the SL, as I said in a couple of months half if the teams will have nothing to play for you seem to avoid to answer that.

[Jughead]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Your last paragraph would be much more telling if we did not have 2 divisions within the SL, as I said in a couple of months half if the teams will have nothing to play for you seem to avoid to answer that.

Each of the existing eleven clubs who’ve competed in Super League for more than one season have finished in the top six between the seasons 2011-2021 and nine of those have played in a Challenge Cup Final in the last nine or ten finals, which could soon be ten if Huddersfield beat Hull KR in the semi. 

There will come a time, most likely in the time period that you suggest where teams will have nothing to play for in a system where promotion and relegation exists, we do not have to have something riding on every fixture. Other sports don’t and sections of our game seem hung up on this matter. 

There’s an argument also that promotion and relegation could well exist in a system where the professional clubs are ring-fenced but that’s getting far to into make believe land for a Saturday night.