This Promotion/Relegation is a Farce

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Mr Oates, in repeated posts, has said there was no point in developing the game "outside of East and West Yorkshire and South Lancashire" and that focus should therefore be directed at those areas. 

"Focus on the heartlands", except this that this and oh I didn't realise they'd been around for so long...

You were replying to Dave , has he suggested investing in Heartlands ONLY ? 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

You were replying to Dave , has he suggested investing in Heartlands ONLY ? 

Dave took up my original reply to Mr Oates. Keep up Gubby its not even that late!

[Oxford]

21 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes , but if you aren't allowed to run a ' youth setup ' , what do you want these clubs to do ?

It's amazing how facts like this always seem so irrelevant.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Dave took up my original reply to Mr Oates. Keep up Gubby its not even that late!

' took up ' as in suggesting investment ( not only ) in the heartlands was still viable , he did not suggest only ,you however suggested no investment in the haertlands was viable as saturation point was reached long ago 

Please keep up 

Edited June 10, 2022 by GUBRATS

[Dave T]

36 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

No, I'm saying that a heartlands only policy will struggle reach greater levels of popularity within the heartlands itself. I believe the maximum heartlands only popularity was achieved a long time ago, and the world has changed since then.

I would also think that we need to remember this is a specific discussion on player pyramid.

Re. Your last line, fair enough and I can understand your stance. I don't agree with it - but I also don't agree with a heartlands only approach, we've never done that as long as SL has been around and I expect we won't ever do it, but as long as there is growth available there it is still a reasonable idea to be tabled, and certainly does not automatically equate to going backwards. 

[Tommygilf]

46 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

' took up ' as in suggesting investment ( not only ) in the heartlands was still viable , he did not suggest only ,you however suggested no investment in the haertlands was viable as saturation point was reached long ago 

Please keep up 

No, took up as in replied to an existing conversation point.

In any case you said nobody, not just Dave, had made that point. You were wrong, and now look foolish.

[Tommygilf]

43 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Re. Your last line, fair enough and I can understand your stance. I don't agree with it - but I also don't agree with a heartlands only approach, we've never done that as long as SL has been around and I expect we won't ever do it, but as long as there is growth available there it is still a reasonable idea to be tabled, and certainly does not automatically equate to going backwards. 

Fair enough, happy to disagree on that. As seems to be happening more often recently it seems we are debating at different points, or at least coming from different angles, to cross purposes.

Perhaps then my point is that it is at a stage where having a game that is popular all over the country will make it easier to make it more popular in Dewsbury than having what the game is now to make the game more popular in Dewsbury (for example). That is to say, a heartlands only policy is doomed to fail imo, as the world where that did/may have done, doesn't exist. Again perhaps that is because of my age and greater amount of value placed on my own generation.

[Dave T]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

Fair enough, happy to disagree on that. As seems to be happening more often recently it seems we are debating at different points, or at least coming from different angles, to cross purposes.

Perhaps then my point is that it is at a stage where having a game that is popular all over the country will make it easier to make it more popular in Dewsbury than having what the game is now to make the game more popular in Dewsbury (for example). That is to say, a heartlands only policy is doomed to fail imo, as the world where that did/may have done, doesn't exist. Again perhaps that is because of my age and greater amount of value placed on my own generation.

I think a lot of the debates at the moment are merging into one and getting slightly muddled, in between work I don't mind admitting to sometimes losing track of what we are even debating

When I refer to heartlands only, I mean existing game, or maybe even a conservative approach - I think that's what people are advocating really rather than every penny or ounce of effort going onto m62 clubs. In reality I think it's geographical expansion vs not - my preference is we do it, but not some of the silly reckless stuff we have done in the past, which makes it easy for non-expansionists to strengthen their point. 

As with most things, we can probably apply at 80:20 model. Focus 80% on our core game and 20% on the exciting initiatives and we can't go too far wrong. 

[sweaty craiq]

I have heard a whisper that the Big plan is for SL to become part of the mix of clubs run by the big football clubs eg Leigh Centurions to become simply “Centurions a Division of Sporting club Man Utd” Saints to Liverpool, Leeds to Leeds utd etc. The parents wealth will ensure expansion and the pick of any global talent from both codes resulting in significant future tv deals and huge exposure

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, sweaty craiq said:

I have heard a whisper that the Big plan is for SL to become part of the mix of clubs run by the big football clubs eg Leigh Centurions to become simply “Centurions a Division of Sporting club Man Utd” Saints to Liverpool, Leeds to Leeds utd etc. The parents wealth will ensure expansion and the pick of any global talent from both codes resulting in significant future tv deals and huge exposure

It's not a rumour if you start it yourself.

[Tommygilf]

26 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It's not a rumour if you start it yourself.

It is if you overhear it from a few of other voices in your head...

[Dave T]

16 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Yes. It's worth making it clear that this also involves cutting Barrow adrift, as well as Workington and Whitehaven.

Not heartlands, you see.

Heartlands is an unhelpful word, as nobody really knows what it means. To me it means 'existing', which includes plenty of places away from the M62. 

But it is rarely used in a positive way, so I say we put it in the swear filter! 

One thing I would add, when people want to bash the game they constantly talk about the M62, ignoring every other place RL is present. It's all ignorant. 

[Scubby]

10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Heartlands is an unhelpful word, as nobody really knows what it means. To me it means 'existing', which includes plenty of places away from the M62. 

But it is rarely used in a positive way, so I say we put it in the swear filter! 

One thing I would add, when people want to bash the game they constantly talk about the M62, ignoring every other place RL is present. It's all ignorant. 

But you do admit an "us" and "them" mentality has always and still exists in a number of people who follow the game in the heartlands. I remember people moaning at Sheffield in the 1990s when they were actually in the top flight before we even talk about the French clubs, London and those League 1 clubs.

Some of the social media comments about a French referee for the Saints-Toulouse game was pure xenophobia That is how narrow and shallow it gets unfortunately and it blurs a lot of the good intentions.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Scubby
typo

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, Scubby said:

But you do admit an "us" and "them" mentality has always and still exists in a number of people who follow the game in the heartlands. I remember people moaning at Sheffield in the 1990s when they were actually in the top flight before we even talk about the French clubs, London and those League 1 clubs.

Some of the social media comments about a French referee for the Saints-Toulouse game was pure xenophobia That is how narrow and shallow it gets unfortunately and it blurs a lot of the good intentions.

There are all sorts of us and them groups. In this context we are discussing expansionist versus let's call them 'traditionalists'. 

P&R vs Licensing

Club vs internationals

SL vs Championships

Amateur vs Pro

It's life, people like to categorise people. 

[GUBRATS]

17 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Nope.

Why then , any idea's ?

[gingerjon]

48 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Heartlands is an unhelpful word, as nobody really knows what it means. To me it means 'existing', which includes plenty of places away from the M62. 

It didn't to the person being replied to, though.

Heartlands is especially unhelpful as it also implies some kind of supremacy for rugby league in those areas.

Which is often misleading (the biggest sports clubs within Wakefield may be rugby league ones but, potentially, more people are interested in Leeds United than in any of them).

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It didn't to the person being replied to, though.

Heartlands is especially unhelpful as it also implies some kind of supremacy for rugby league in those areas.

Which is often misleading (the biggest sports clubs within Wakefield may be rugby league ones but, potentially, more people are interested in Leeds United than in any of them).

Yup. It was an eye opener when I went to Elland Rd for the Eng v NZ game a couple of years back and the city was covered in references to the England RU game that day, with pretty much every pub advertising that, and football naturally. 

RL just didn't seem to have presence in the city centre of one of our biggest clubs. 

There is a very long way to go. 

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yup. It was an eye opener when I went to Elland Rd for the Eng v NZ game a couple of years back and the city was covered in references to the England RU game that day, with pretty much every pub advertising that, and football naturally. 

RL just didn't seem to have presence in the city centre of one of our biggest clubs. 

There is a very long way to go. 

Maybe the thinking was all those interested were at Elland Rd ? 

[Tommygilf]

22 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It didn't to the person being replied to, though.

Heartlands is especially unhelpful as it also implies some kind of supremacy for rugby league in those areas.

Which is often misleading (the biggest sports clubs within Wakefield may be rugby league ones but, potentially, more people are interested in Leeds United than in any of them).

Spot on. 

[Dave T]

14 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Maybe the thinking was all those interested were at Elland Rd ? 

We both know that's not how the world works. 

But I was referring to the blanket wall to wall coverage and ads from partners like the breweries and Guinness etc. 

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yup. It was an eye opener when I went to Elland Rd for the Eng v NZ game a couple of years back and the city was covered in references to the England RU game that day, with pretty much every pub advertising that, and football naturally. 

RL just didn't seem to have presence in the city centre of one of our biggest clubs. 

There is a very long way to go. 

I experienced this a lot naturally.

I think a lot of it is the commercialisation and corporatism in Pubs etc nowadays. Greene King being a prime example, they are a national brand and therefore tend towards national events/organisations. That's before you get to them being commercially involved in RU.

The Skyrack in Headingley has for years being the traditional pre match watering hole for Rhinos fans. It used to have Rhinos memorabilia up all over. Since Greene King took over about 5 years ago it has been redecorated into with a weird homage to Tolkein, Cricket and the Leeds skyline. The Rhinos presence all but gone. It contrasts massively with the LUFC pubs on the way to Elland Road.

Its also symptomatic of RL towns and cities changing demographics and part of why I think that we need to be popular more broadly to maintain and increase our current popularity "in the heartlands".

[steve oates]

On 10/06/2022 at 14:11, Tommygilf said:

Maybe the player pool is shrinking because increasingly fewer young men want to play a game with minimal exposure in a small time league, a small financial reward, and a hell of a lot of pain...

Standing still, which "invest in the heartlands" amounts to, is going backwards. 

Tommy

The player pool is was and still is shrinking not just in Rugby League but in Rugby Union and Soccer which has massive rewards. When I played soccer there was a local Sunday league of many divisions. There is no such league any more.

Union clubs used to have first team, seconds, thirds and veterans. My local club played a York side down to one team and they could not even manage 15 players. In Rugby League It also appears that we are more and more reliant on taking on every antipodean we can.

We are nobly trying to expand, we are in south wales, we are in Cornwall, we are in the midlands etc but these "clubs" have it all on to find a first team that isn't going to be battered and out of the game by half time. None of these clubs have the ability to become an East Leeds RLFC let alone a Leeds Rhino's RLFC

The player pool in the traditional areas of the north is shrinking but at least we still have such a pool, and all I am saying is we must focus on keeping that, it's not "anti-expansion" it's now pure survival.

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Tommy

The player pool is was and still is shrinking not just in Rugby League but in Rugby Union and Soccer which has massive rewards. When I played soccer there was a local Sunday league of many divisions. There is no such league any more.

Union clubs used to have first team, seconds, thirds and veterans. My local club played a York side down to one team and they could not even manage 15 players. In Rugby League It also appears that we are more and more reliant on taking on every antipodean we can.

We are nobly trying to expand, we are in south wales, we are in Cornwall, we are in the midlands etc but these "clubs" have it all on to find a first team that isn't going to be battered and out of the game by half time. None of these clubs have the ability to become an East Leeds RLFC let alone a Leeds Rhino's RLFC

The player pool in the traditional areas of the north is shrinking but at least we still have such a pool, and all I am saying is we must focus on keeping that, it's not "anti-expansion" it's now pure survival.

Ignoring the rest of the post then? Shocked.

Leeds Rhinos wouldn't be very good at being East Leeds ARLFC. We are a sport which explicitly differentiates between (semi)professional and amateur clubs in our pyramid. They do not exist for the same purpose and do not compete with eachother.

Keeping the pool in the north involves the game being more popular. It cannot become more popular based on just the existing areas in the north.

[steve oates]

9 hours ago, Dave T said:

Heartlands is an unhelpful word, as nobody really knows what it means.

They only have to look it up Dave

"The central or most important part of a country, area, or field of activity"

In our game we identify the M62 or whatever people want to call it, and the south of France, from which we have created an Anglo French Superleague. This means the game is not stuck in one place, it's not just a Northern sport for Northern Folk.

Our heartlands are Anglo French and this is where where Rugby League works, including Barrow which used to be in Lancashire. The big problem for us is the lack of a French TV deal. By definition that means if we want to make the game bigger and better we need to ensure these clubs and championship clubs are at the forefront of the game, and together we try to grow these clubs accordingly to be even bigger . 

I would be sure on the next round of TV money clubs not in these Heartlands (and clubs that are but are failing) will probably be getting nothing on this principle of invest in what works, because expansion outside the Heartlands hasn't worked..

[Oxford]

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