StandOffHalf Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, The storm said: But global RU is in trouble also. The corporate sport is in big trouble in a lot of places Ive watched Suuali few times and there are 5 or 6 young players his age who are better than him at thhe moment, Yeah, you don't have to tell me. I live in a family of union nuts here in Ireland. RU is struggling in a lot of countries, and it's not just emerging or smaller countries. NZ numbers and successes are way down and players are going offshore. SA leaving Super Rugby has had a hugely detrimental effect. RU do still have internationals as the centrepiece though. Suaalii would have that chance to regularly play in Yellow/Gold in Oz and around the world. That isn't there in league, as tantalising as this long-awaited upcoming WC is shaping up to be. Edited September 18, 2022 by StandOffHalf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 14 hours ago, Dunbar said: Very disappointing. I have been confident that at home and with our best players available that we would be competitive but losing Walmsley and Newman starts to feel like a big hit. And don't forget the miscreants from the semi's for what should be a few games if the judiciary are consistent, Bateman albeit on his present form I don't think he will be as much a loss as you have him, and Knowles for that despicable action yesterday. Honest question what is the process of the squad selection, once it is named - 25 player's I believe - is that it, or can replacements be drafted in, just thinking of any banned player if they are going to be unavailable for a couple of games is it worth picking them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 9 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said: Would Newman be a starter with everyone fit and available? Hopefully Farnworth is fit as he’s likely our first choice centre, not sure who the next cab off the rank is. We’ve been weak there for a long time. So you want to throw Farnwoth in who has not put on a pair of boots in anger for a good number of weeks and expect him to be match fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UTK Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: So you want to throw Farnwoth in who has not put on a pair of boots in anger for a good number of weeks and expect him to be match fit. Give him the match against Fiji to blow out the cobwebs and he'll be ready to go, Farnworth is a very physically fit player and while match fitness is its own concept I'm sure he will be in good condition for the opener. He's too good to leave out especially when there aren't backup options kicking the door down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted September 18, 2022 Author Share Posted September 18, 2022 6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: So you want to throw Farnwoth in who has not put on a pair of boots in anger for a good number of weeks and expect him to be match fit. Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 9 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: So you want to throw Farnwoth in who has not put on a pair of boots in anger for a good number of weeks and expect him to be match fit. In the modern era, the concept of match fit doesn't really exist any more. The players are so well conditioned these days that you see players coming back from months out and 100% up to speed. The days where players use game time to improve fitness are long gone. 1 1 "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 5 minutes ago, Dunbar said: In the modern era, the concept of match fit doesn't really exist any more. The players are so well conditioned these days that you see players coming back from months out and 100% up to speed. The days where players use game time to improve fitness are long gone. What do you consider March Fitness to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted September 18, 2022 Author Share Posted September 18, 2022 4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: What do you consider March Fitness to be? Harry do you just come here to knock down and laugh at everyone else ? Why don’t you just pick your team seeing you’ve got the infinite wisdom and insight 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: What do you consider March Fitness to be? Sorry, just to clarify. You're asking me what I consider the thing that doesn't exist to be? "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 2 minutes ago, DavidM said: Harry do you just come here to knock down and laugh at everyone else ? Why don’t you just pick your team seeing you’ve got the infinite wisdom and insight No, it's called debate David in my stupidity I thought that was what this site is all about, I asked a perfectly reasonable question to Tex as to the suitability of Farnworth considering he has not played for so long, if others want to join in the conversation all well and good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 2 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Sorry, just to clarify. You're asking me what I consider the thing that doesn't exist to be? Apart from you just stating that Dunbar I have never heard that match fitness doesn't exist, so I just wanted your opinion of what it is or was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 37 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: So you want to throw Farnwoth in who has not put on a pair of boots in anger for a good number of weeks and expect him to be match fit. I think there should be an England game in and or around the playoffs/GF. Not full strength obviously but enough to give some outside contenders a run out - indeed a CNAS or Exiles team would be ideal arguably for that. Union play the Barbarians the day after their grand final at Twickenham - reduced capacity. If nothing else it would mean players like Farnworth would get more than 1 or even 0 run outs before a World Cup or a test series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Apart from you just stating that Dunbar I have never heard that match fitness doesn't exist, so I just wanted your opinion of what it is or was? What is was. When players came back from a long absence (i.e. injury), despite working on their fitness and conditioning, it would take some time to get back up to the speed and intensity of a game situation and the levels of fatigue that this brings. This gap between the levels of fitness attained in training and game conditions was described as 'match fitness'. As I say, the modern conditioning work means that this concept is outdated. You see players coming back straight into first grade after lengthy absences with no notable effect on their ability to function at full levels. Edited September 18, 2022 by Dunbar "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted September 18, 2022 Author Share Posted September 18, 2022 9 minutes ago, Dunbar said: What is was. When players cam back from a long absence (i.e. injury), despite working on their fitness and conditioning, it would take some time to get back up to the speed and intensity of a game situation and the levels of fatigue that this brings. This gap between the levels of fitness attained in training and game conditions was described as 'match fitness'. As I say, the modern conditioning work means that this concept is outdated. You see players coming back straight into first grade after lengthy absences with no notable effect on their ability to function at full levels. Players look pretty ready at the start of a season . Farnworth played 14 games I think so his general fitness level will be high and he will have been able to do a good degree more work than if it was a leg injury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 1 hour ago, Dunbar said: In the modern era, the concept of match fit doesn't really exist any more. The players are so well conditioned these days that you see players coming back from months out and 100% up to speed. The days where players use game time to improve fitness are long gone. That completely contradicts an interview I saw with John Bateman at the start of the season. Essentially players can only get up to a certain level and can never attain full match fitness without playing games. Players are essentially blowing out of their ***** the first few games until they get this. Games are without doubt important and RL match fitness can never be replicated in a gym. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 42 minutes ago, Dunbar said: What is was. When players came back from a long absence (i.e. injury), despite working on their fitness and conditioning, it would take some time to get back up to the speed and intensity of a game situation and the levels of fatigue that this brings. This gap between the levels of fitness attained in training and game conditions was described as 'match fitness'. As I say, the modern conditioning work means that this concept is outdated. You see players coming back straight into first grade after lengthy absences with no notable effect on their ability to function at full levels. Thank you for your take on match fitness Dunny, but in my opinion there is one facet that you have not included, the human body is like a piece of copper malleable and bendy, but when it is subjected to being 'worked' especially with a hammer it is a process called 'work hardening' it becomes more taught and if you so wish gets used to taking knocks, so in my opinion no amount of conditioning or simulation is any where near a substitute for actually playing and taking those knocks it takes time for the body to adjust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 8 minutes ago, Damien said: That completely contradicts an interview I saw with John Bateman at the start of the season. Essentially players can only get up to a certain level and can never attain full match fitness without playing games. Players are essentially blowing out of their ***** the first few games until they get this. Games are without doubt important and RL match fitness can never be replicated in a gym. I see players come back after a mid season lay off for injury and I don't see any indication that they are undercooked fitness wise. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 (edited) 51 minutes ago, DavidM said: Players look pretty ready at the start of a season . Farnworth played 14 games I think so his general fitness level will be high and he will have been able to do a good degree more work than if it was a leg injury After a couple or 3 weeks out, never mind the time that Herbie has been absent the knocks are felt so much more than continuity of playing. And the at the start of the season bit, there are a number of full contact games played behind closed doors as well as the pre season friendlies. Edited September 18, 2022 by Harry Stottle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 Just now, Dunbar said: I see players come back after a mid season lay off for injury and I don't see any indication that they are undercooked fitness wise. I see plenty of players coming back from long injuries and it is very obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 4 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I see players come back after a mid season lay off for injury and I don't see any indication that they are undercooked fitness wise. There's a difference between match fitness and match alertness then? If I started a rugby game tomorrow, it wouldn't be the running that would shock me (alright it would but go with it). It would be the sport itself. Passing, catching, kicking at full intensity is incredibly hard to train. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 5 minutes ago, Damien said: I see plenty of players coming back from long injuries and it is very obvious. Can you provide some examples. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 1 minute ago, Tommygilf said: There's a difference between match fitness and match alertness then? If I started a rugby game tomorrow, it wouldn't be the running that would shock me (alright it would but go with it). It would be the sport itself. Passing, catching, kicking at full intensity is incredibly hard to train. What I am saying is that the modern player can come back into the team after a mid season layoff and be back up to speed without some noticeable time to get back to 'match fitness'. It happens all the time. If someone shows me an example of a player who needed a few matches to get back up to speed then fair enough. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted September 18, 2022 Author Share Posted September 18, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: After a couple or 3 weeks out, never mind the time that Herbie has been absent the knocks are felt so much more than continuity of playing. And the at the start of the season bit, there are a number of full contact games played behind closed doors as well as the pre season friendlies. With the situation we’re facing now I think we don’t really have time to ease players back . With Newman out I’d be guided by Herbie’s work he’s no doubt be doing at Brisbane and he has to feature in the warm up game . He needs to play games to get ‘ match fit ‘ . Even it’s not ideal you’ve got to get your best players out there if they’re there and ready to be selected Edited September 18, 2022 by DavidM 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 Just now, Dunbar said: Can you provide some examples. Really? We see it all the time. You have obviously watched the game for a long time and must have seen it yourself. Thomas Leuluai fantastic before his lay off then way off the pace on his return. French at the start of the season took a few games to get up to speed after missing the first 6 and was getting cramp in his first game back, something we often see. That is off the top of my head. You don't think match fitness exists, that's fine but to me it clearly does and it is very evident that players and coaches think so. I have heard them refer to it enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 6 minutes ago, DavidM said: With the situation we’re facing now I think we don’t really have time to ease players back . With Newman out I’d be guided by Herbie’s work he’s no doubt be doing at Brisbane and he has to feature in the warm up game . He needs to play games to get ‘ match fit ‘ . Even it’s not ideal you’ve got to get your best players out there if they’re there and ready to be selected I'd pick Farnworth if fit, without doubt. We have few centre options and he is a quality player. We have the Fiji warm up and it's a long tournament. Even if he wasn't quite ready for the Samoa game then the France and Greece games should provide a nice opportunity to build games, if needed. If he was a different player in a different position then I may well have a different view. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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