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Rules Question (Play The Ball)


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1 minute ago, The Rocket said:

Fair enough, but I`m just happy to see fast PTB`s especially when so much of the game these days revolves around slowing down the PTB so defences can get set. There`s nothing like a retreating or staggered defensive line to provide opportunities for opening the game up.

I'm not a big fan of this. The false quick PTB stops creativity as you don't need to create gaps they are there by way of a false PTB.

It looks artificial and like tick and pass.

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2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

It wasn't after a tackle 

I assumed the question I was answering was a general one, not about this particular incident. 

The question was 'How is "lost ball" an offence?'

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

I assumed the question I was answering was a general one, not about this particular incident. 

The question was 'How is "lost ball" an offence?'

Furry snuff 👍

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4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I have already quoted the law, here it is again.

If, after being tackled, he accidentally loses possession, a scrum shall be formed except after the fifth play-the-ball.

 

So.  In normal play, if a player loses possession it is only an offence if it goes forward... I.e. a knock on.  A player can drop the ball backwards and regather and it is play on.

But after a tackle has been  effected, if a player loses possession before the ball is played then an offence is called.  And it doesn't matter which direction the ball is lost... simply that it has been lost.

But it's either a knock on or incorrect ptb, so why the need for a separate law?

It's semantics really as the law says a player can't release the ball after a tackle other than that prescribed by ptb.

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4 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

I'm not a big fan of this. The false quick PTB stops creativity as you don't need to create gaps they are there by way of a false PTB.

It looks artificial and like tick and pass.

I agree with this up to a point but I feel defences, especially the top teams, are just so damn good these days that I`ll take anything to see a bit more open footy.

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2 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

I agree with this up to a point but I feel defences, especially the top teams, are just so damn good these days that I`ll take anything to see a bit more open footy.

You mean they're just so damn good at cheating and the refs aren't good enough ( brave enough ) to stop it ? 😉

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1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

Technically, a knock on is not given if a player loses the ball after a tackle has been effected and before the ball is played.  It is lost possession. 

If, after being tackled, he accidentally loses possession, a scrum shall be formed except after the fifth play-the-ball.

https://www.rugby-league.com/governance/rules-and-regulations/laws-of-the-game

This matters because losing possession is losing possession whether the ball travels forward or not.

After thinking about it, a knock-on at ptb is usually given as such. An incorrect ptb would be a penalty, so losing possession at ptb perhaps needs to be stipulated as a lesser offence resulting in a scrum.

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32 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Is placing the ball on the ground a knock on? 

Definition:

Knock On means to knock the ball towards the opponent's dead ball line with hand or arm.

Hmmm interesting 🤔 would simply releasing the ball forward constitute a knock on? If you deliberately place the ball in front of you, would it be deliberate knock on or seen as an attempt to ptb and so a voluntary tackle?

Edit:

If the ball is grounded short of the try line and released, is that normally given as ptb again? Or knock-on?

The opposition could pick it up and play on.

Edited by Wholly Trinity
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59 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Is placing the ball on the ground a knock on? 

Definition:

Knock On means to knock the ball towards the opponent's dead ball line with hand or arm.

It depends on which side of the ball you hand is. If the back of your hand is facing the opposition line it wouldn't be a knock-on, but if the back of your hand is facing your own line it would be.

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4 minutes ago, Stotty said:

It depends on which side of the ball you hand is. If the back of your hand is facing the opposition line it wouldn't be a knock-on, but if the back of your hand is facing your own line it would be.

The word is 'towards' the opponents line.  Isn’t it irrelevant which direction your hands are facing.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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2 hours ago, Dunbar said:

The word is 'towards' the opponents line.  Isn’t it irrelevant which direction your hands are facing.

If the palm of your hand is facing your own line it would be very hard to knock it on, but if it's facing the opposition line it would be very hard not to knock it on. One way the ball's coming off your hand backwards and the other way forwards.

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5 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

It should be the loss of a tackle and a re playing of the ball at the spot he ' assumed ' he was tackled , when the Ref has re set the defensive line 

Well that's what common sense would dictate , but this is RL 🙄

After reading the replies I am still non the wiser why the rule exists and the common sense thing like you say would be to lose a tackle and restart with a play the ball as its a clear accidental decision by the attacker rather than trying to gain an advantage. If there is no knock which by the letter of the law there isn't and there can't be a voluntary tackle because the player has chosen to regain his feet then I am struggling to understand the need for a penalty because its hard to gain an advantage by doing this.

6 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

It's a pen because players would do it frequently otherwise. Major advantage to being 'tackled' and playing ball quick as you put every defender offside.

May be harsh if a genuine error by the ball carrier but it's the way it has to be

I feel this is slightly different to an attacker running in to a defender and hitting the deck which is a very clear way to try and gain an advantage but in the situation mentioned the player gains no advantage because of how the ref's now coach players he would not be asking them to retreat or calling players offside and everyone is free to get involved.

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2 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

After reading the replies I am still non the wiser why the rule exists and the common sense thing like you say would be to lose a tackle and restart with a play the ball as its a clear accidental decision by the attacker rather than trying to gain an advantage. If there is no knock which by the letter of the law there isn't and there can't be a voluntary tackle because the player has chosen to regain his feet then I am struggling to understand the need for a penalty because its hard to gain an advantage by doing this.

I feel this is slightly different to an attacker running in to a defender and hitting the deck which is a very clear way to try and gain an advantage but in the situation mentioned the player gains no advantage because of how the ref's now coach players he would not be asking them to retreat or calling players offside and everyone is free to get involved.

Why would putting every defender who is not standing square or retreated 10m NOT be an advantage?

The acting half could have a clear run to the line with no-one allowed to touch him without conceding a penalty.

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1 hour ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Why would putting every defender who is not standing square or retreated 10m NOT be an advantage?

The acting half could have a clear run to the line with no-one allowed to touch him without conceding a penalty.

Im not fully understanding what you are saying here, the defenders would be free to do whatever they like because the ref would not have called the tackle, would not tell them to get onside, and would likely be shouting play on, because no tackle had been effected.

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11 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Im not fully understanding what you are saying here, the defenders would be free to do whatever they like because the ref would not have called the tackle, would not tell them to get onside, and would likely be shouting play on, because no tackle had been effected.

Ah right, so you're saying a player should be able to ptb randomly and not be penalised as no offence took place... other than the specific one of voluntary tackle. If the referee calls play on and a player chooses not to, he is penalised.

Ptb has a special meaning and definition within the laws, including when and how it should be carried out.

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12 hours ago, Dave T said:

Is placing the ball on the ground a knock on? 

Definition:

Knock On means to knock the ball towards the opponent's dead ball line with hand or arm.

If it is, every try is a knock on. 20m restart and a lot of 0-0 draws.

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10 hours ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Ah right, so you're saying a player should be able to ptb randomly and not be penalised as no offence took place... other than the specific one of voluntary tackle. If the referee calls play on and a player chooses not to, he is penalised.

Ptb has a special meaning and definition within the laws, including when and how it should be carried out.

Yeah a lot of what you said there is the bit that has always baffled me about the ruling which makes me think the rule is more based around simulation than anything else but Ive not actually seen a rule that covers it. I do think this is one that needs to go down a common sense route a bit like how the incorrect pla the ball is now often a scrum rather than a penalty although to be fair it does not come up nearly enough to think about too much.

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On 10/09/2022 at 11:18, Wholly Trinity said:

After thinking about it, a knock-on at ptb is usually given as such. 

There is no such thing as a "knock-on at the PTB".

 

On 10/09/2022 at 11:35, Wholly Trinity said:

If the ball is grounded short of the try line and released, is that normally given as ptb again? Or knock-on?

The opposition could pick it up and play on.

The opposition can regather a loose ball if the ref decides there was still momentum in the tackle as the ball touched the ground and has not called the tackle complete. Play on, zero tackle.

The opposition cannot regather a loose ball after the tackle is complete. The ref will call lost possession and a scrum if he deems the loss of control on the ground was inadvertent. If he thinks it was released deliberately, he will penalize since this represents a failure to meet the requirement to lift the ball clear of the ground before placing and playing it.

This is no different from the judgements of intent made in open play. A scrum is called for an unintentional knock-on, a penalty is called for an intentional knock-on.

Even with no separation between hand and ball, a player cannot push the ball forward along the ground any more than he can deliberately knock it forward over or past an opponent through the air. Same principle applies to heading the ball forward. The ref would have penalized the header in one of the Canberra tries yesterday had he deemed it deliberate.

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9 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

Yeah a lot of what you said there is the bit that has always baffled me about the ruling which makes me think the rule is more based around simulation than anything else but Ive not actually seen a rule that covers it. 

Saw an incident in an Aussie women`s game a few weeks back where ball-carrier slipped out of tackle, ref called "play on", ball-carrier didn`t heed call, attempted to play the ball, and was promptly smashed a second time. That`s how it should go.

Only problem is if defenders are spooked into pulling out of possible tackle. Then, as others have said, only option for the ref is to penalize for "voluntarily stopping play while not effectively tackled" i.e. voluntary tackle.

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If I may quote.

"The tackled player shall without delay regain his feet where he was tackled, lift the ball clear of the ground, face his opponent’s goal line and drop or place the ball on the ground in front of his foremost foot"

I'd like to see a player attempt to play the ball by dropping it to the floor without being pulled up.

This was the most common way of playing the ball until about the 1970s.

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I've got a suggestion, arguably both simple and radical at the same time.

Why don't referees, players and coaches all ensure the PTB is conducted in accordance with the laws as written?

OK - too radical, by far!  So here is plan B.

Why don't referees, players and coaches (and anybody else relevant) decide how they want the PTB to take place and then reflect that in how the laws of the game are written?

Sorry, I realise I am just a grumpy old trouble-maker, subversively arguing for something once called 'common sense'.  I'll take my grubby coat, flat cap and leave...

 

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