French RL

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tosh said:

To be fair Toulouse didn’t really help themselves with the calibre of their signings in their maiden super league season to say the least.

I think you are just pi##ing into the wind regarding elite1 and elite2. The best chance of growing RL in France is with Catalan and Toulouse playing in super league and maybe even a 3rd French team.

That just means 30 odd French players getting hammered - like they are at the moment.

if they didn't have to pay travel costs - they could probably have afforded better, although I accept the COVID holdouts didn't help.

If the domestic game is not grown over there then we might as well save the money in trying to develop the French game and leave them to it.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tosh said:

That’s why I’m advocating for a 3rd club and maybe even a 4th further down the line.

I just can’t see elite1 attracting the same level of sponsorship and media interest as Catalan and Toulouse do.

 

Not sure where they get the players if the system underneath is not good enough.

[barnyia]

In this world cup the NRL supply players for four full teams, Samoa, Australia,Tonga and NZ, more than a third of the English team, plus quite few spread around the other teams, most have all come through the Australian pathways. 

[JM2010]

Would it be possible for Toulouse and Catalans to set up academies in other areas with the backing of the French Federation?

They could possibly run academies in Provence, Lyon, the Aude region etc with some progressing to Catalans and Toulouse first team squads and the rest playing for their nearest Elite 1/2 club.

This could potentially increase the amount of French players progressing into SL as well as supporting Elite clubs with junior development

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

Would it be possible for Toulouse and Catalans to set up academies in other areas with the backing of the French Federation?

They could possibly run academies in Provence, Lyon, the Aude region etc with some progressing to Catalans and Toulouse first team squads and the rest playing for their nearest Elite 1/2 club.

This could potentially increase the amount of French players progressing into SL as well as supporting Elite clubs with junior development

Don't Catalans already have a team in Elite 1?

[Henson Park Old Firm]

Maybe FRL and a club like Sydney Roosters, should sign a exclusive pathway plan. In other words Roosters gets first picks on any potential players for NRL and in overturn the French get investment.

[JM2010]

2 hours ago, Leonard said:

Don't Catalans already have a team in Elite 1?

Yeah as do Toulouse. I was talking about them running academies and junior development in other areas of France which will give players from these areas a pathway into Catalans SL squad with the ones that don't make staying and playing for their local Elite 1 or 2 club.

 

[kiggy]

5 hours ago, Tosh said:

To be fair Toulouse didn’t really help themselves with the calibre of their signings in their maiden super league season to say the least.

I think you are just pi##ing into the wind regarding elite1 and elite2. The best chance of growing RL in France is with Catalan and Toulouse playing in super league and maybe even a 3rd French team.

Money, timing, availability. Plus the Ford/Killer mess didn't help.

[Jamesthepratt]

One thing I always wondered … could French players be exempt from salary cap(in england) … or up to a point. 

might encourage investment in French players  and engage super league clubs in funding French talent earlier in their careers 

[Tosh]

13 hours ago, JM2010 said:

Would it be possible for Toulouse and Catalans to set up academies in other areas with the backing of the French Federation?

They could possibly run academies in Provence, Lyon, the Aude region etc with some progressing to Catalans and Toulouse first team squads and the rest playing for their nearest Elite 1/2 club.

This could potentially increase the amount of French players progressing into SL as well as supporting Elite clubs with junior development

All 3 could work together to enter both a scholarship and academy side in the English competition.

You would probably have to employ some sort of draft system in which Toulouse would have say 1st pick of the graduating academy players followed by Catalan having 2nd pick and then Toulouse having 3rd pick and so on.

[Tosh]

11 hours ago, kiggy said:

Money, timing, availability. Plus the Ford/Killer mess didn't help.

Fair points.

They were definitely behind the 8ball before a ball was even kicked in anger.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Tosh

[steve oates]

On 02/11/2022 at 07:45, Tosh said:

What can be done to improve the French National side 

For me I’d introduce a overseas quota on both Catalan and Toulouse limiting them to no more than 5 non-French citizens in their 1st team squads.

Id also introduce a French scholarship and academy side into the English competition to be run by the French RL federation with the aim of producing French players of super league standard 

Id also introduce another French team into the uk pyramid from a big city like marseille, Lyon or Montpelier etc.

So you would tie the hands of the two biggest French clubs in terms of them being able to compete here.....

Then you would set up a player development system, that makes the gross assumption quality Rugby Players would join that and not the French RU

AND you'd throw a real Superleague club to one side for a non competetive no money French Minnow......

Fishing or what?

 

[Harry Stottle]

17 hours ago, barnyia said:

In this world cup the NRL supply players for four full teams, Samoa, Australia,Tonga and NZ, more than a third of the English team, plus quite few spread around the other teams, most have all come through the Australian pathways. 

Yes the NRL and prior to that the ARL were very efficient at putting in place and formulating path ways for youngsters FOR THE BETTERMENT of the game of Rugby League in Australia, losing the World Cup and the Ashes test series in the early 70's was the realisation that they did not want to fall further behind Britain, they also then put a ban on British player's going to Australian clubs as it was deemed they were denying home grown talent the opportunity to play, so everthing was focussed internally to take the game forwards and upwards.

Why am I saying this well Fast forward a couple of decades and the immigration to Australia especially from the Pacific Islands with 'made to measure' Rugby League player's kicked the sport on domestically through those created  pathways then later the Heritage rule comes about and we have untold numbers of Australian born nationals representing other countries, subsequently Australia are probably at a position that the game is as popular as it has ever been. Australia are actually reaping what they have sown and to our detriment in the Northern Hemisphere we have not been as pro-active, GB have endeavored not to sit on it's laurels and introduce some advancements, and I ask this in the nicest possible way what has been going on in France?

Are there platform's such as this for RL in France, if so how do the French public see the way forward for the game both domestically and internationally there are many suggestions on this platform, I will pertanently ask this question, has it come down to a reliance on the British game to push the game forward in France?

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Harry Stottle

[Tosh]

7 hours ago, steve oates said:

So you would tie the hands of the two biggest French clubs in terms of them being able to compete here.....

Then you would set up a player development system, that makes the gross assumption quality Rugby Players would join that and not the French RU

AND you'd throw a real Superleague club to one side for a non competetive no money French Minnow......

Fishing or what?

 

Catalan and Toulouse would be able to sign 5 quality overseas players instead of signing just 1 or 2 star players and then 7-8 average overseas players.

Theres plenty of junior French RL talent in the south of France and in the past the dragons have had a few junior RU players in their teams.

Whats a “real” super league club then? One that bounces from 1 season to the next just avoiding relegation and playing in front of 4-5k fans?

Also my proposed 3rd French team would start below super league and would only enter super league on merit like every other team.

[UTK]

20 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes the NRL and prior to that the ARL were very efficient at putting in place and formulating path ways for youngsters FOR THE BETTERMENT of the game of Rugby League in Australia, losing the World Cup and the Ashes test series in the early 70's was the realisation that they did not want to fall further behind Britain, they also then put a ban on British player's going to Australian clubs as it was deemed they were denying home grown talent the opportunity to play, so everthing was focussed internally to take the game forwards and upwards.

Why am I saying this well Fast forward a couple of decades and the immigration to Australia especially from the Pacific Islands with 'made to measure' Rugby League player's kicked the sport on domestically through those created  pathways then later the Heritage rule comes about and we have untold numbers of Australian born nationals representing other countries, subsequently Australia are probably at a position that the game is as popular as it has ever been. Australia are actually reaping what they have sown and to our detriment in the Northern Hemisphere we have not been as pro-active, GB have endeavored not to sit on it's laurels and introduce some advancements, and I ask this in the nicest possible way what has been going on in France?

Are there platform's such as this for RL in France, if so how do the French public see the way forward for the game both domestically and internationally there are many suggestions on this platform, I will pertanently ask this question, has it come down to a reliance on the British game to push the game forward in France?

 

This ban on British players coming to Australia in the 1970s didn't actually happen though did it?

Dozens of GB internationals had stints with Australian clubs during the 70s. Australia banning British players or England banning Australians/French/Kiwis would do nothing but artificially cap the talent in the competition, therefore reducing the standard of which players coming through would be exposed to and hamstringing the development of players playing in that competition. 

[JohnM]

Leadership at Fed level, leaders at club level, money (Fed, TV, sponsors, owners, local authorities), TV contract.

Clinging to the coat tails of the RFL not really a solution.

Not entirely convinced that France welcomes being told how to run their game by the UK game.

 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, UTK said:

This ban on British players coming to Australia in the 1970s didn't actually happen though did it?

Dozens of GB internationals had stints with Australian clubs during the 70s. Australia banning British players or England banning Australians/French/Kiwis would do nothing but artificially cap the talent in the competition, therefore reducing the standard of which players coming through would be exposed to and hamstringing the development of players playing in that competition. 

Thanks for the reply UTK, I mentioned the ban on imports imposed by the ARL as just one example of many that was undertook to push the game forward for the then present and latent Aussie talent to improve, as I understood it at the time those 'imports' who were presently at Aussie clubs were allowed to stay, the ban was to stop any further introductions.

But that was then, I never mentioned it should be the order for today in my post (read it back), my point was that from that time the Northern Hemisphere as been miles behind our Southern cousins in innovations to improve the sport, and even though some "remodeling" has slowly but albeit infrequently been introduced by the RFL what has the FFR done in that time to improve the sport in both application and popularity in France?

It seems to me there are many subscribers to this platform that seem to believe it should be the duty, onus and responsibility of the British RL to improve the FFR both locally and internationally, what do you think?

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, JohnM said:

Leadership at Fed level, leaders at club level, money (Fed, TV, sponsors, owners, local authorities), TV contract.

Clinging to the coat tails of the RFL not really a solution.

Not entirely convinced that France welcomes being told how to run their game by the UK game.

 

Not to sure about that bit in bold John, I think it dovetails perfectly with your second sentance and it really is their solution.

[UTK]

On 04/11/2022 at 18:54, Harry Stottle said:

Thanks for the reply UTK, I mentioned the ban on imports imposed by the ARL as just one example of many that was undertook to push the game forward for the then present and latent Aussie talent to improve, as I understood it at the time those 'imports' who were presently at Aussie clubs were allowed to stay, the ban was to stop any further introductions.

But that was then, I never mentioned it should be the order for today in my post (read it back), my point was that from that time the Northern Hemisphere as been miles behind our Southern cousins in innovations to improve the sport, and even though some "remodeling" has slowly but albeit infrequently been introduced by the RFL what has the FFR done in that time to improve the sport in both application and popularity in France?

It seems to me there are many subscribers to this platform that seem to believe it should be the duty, onus and responsibility of the British RL to improve the FFR both locally and internationally, what do you think?

In an ideal world I don't think it would be the duty of British RL to improve the FFR, but unfortunately we in RL don't have an ideal world but rather one held up by two countries with the financial capability to make a difference in international RL. 

I would probably refrain from going as far as to say it should be considered a duty or responsibility, any interactions between the two should occur with a view to developing mutualistic benefit as opposed to some absolute altruism on behalf of England. For example, a club like Catalans that has now placed itself within the upper echelon of SL in terms of competitiveness is an asset to SL/England by driving up the standard of the premier competition. The inclusion of Catalans/TO should be seen to serve this purpose, clubs who have the prospect of strong financial backing and provide a link to another playing pool to strengthen the premier NH RL competition. Your own club Leigh IMO acts in a similar way, despite his questionable fashion sense DB makes clear his intention and capability to develop Leigh into a club that can challenge the upper echelon of SL long-term, indeed there is no doubt that the ambitious signings made this year added value and raised standards within the Championship (even though it was a walkover). 

Looking ahead to the longer term, the support and inclusion of the French clubs should also support the ultimate goal for France to become a consistent local rival capable of competing and beating England. I don't think many would disagree that would be of benefit to the English game if there was a competitor sitting across the channel that could regularly challenge England and pack out stadiums doing so. This is undoubtedly a very long-term prospect and a prospect that some would argue will never happen, so as you seem to be alluding to - why should this be a goal at all?

I would say that boils down to whether or not we want International RL to exist in Europe. A harsh reality is that the Pacific Nations in their entirety could never tour England again or certainly never have England tour the Pacific again and they would be fine, we could survive on an International program that consisted of only the Pacific Nations playing each other or unfortunately even less than that. While I don't believe that will ultimately happen the reality is that the International calendar has already been trending toward more Pacific-centred competition, tours becoming less frequent, Australia didn't bother to play GB when they toured down here, the WC deferral, replacing the 4N with the Oceanic Cup. In light of that context England has to decide whether or not it is happy with one nation touring every year or two and that being the limit of Englands international fixtures or whether there is value in continuing to support France on its journey to becoming a nation that can fill that growing gap in the England international calendar. 

I must also state I'm not negligent to some of the realities of this situation, in the short-term there does need to be a focus on obtaining financial rewards from France to support the inclusion of these clubs in SL and the staging of International matches between the two nations. Building towards a more self-sustaining arrangement is the first step in making this investment much more palatable for both parties, the lack of a French tv deal should not be ignored in favour of the bright lights offered by the long-term benefits discussed here.

 

[Gambass]

On 04/11/2022 at 08:54, Harry Stottle said:

It seems to me there are many subscribers to this platform that seem to believe it should be the duty, onus and responsibility of the British RL to improve the FFR both locally and internationally, what do you think?

I'd say he has became (partially) so once the english game invited french clubs (originally both Paris and Toulouse) to join the SL in 1995. At that time, I believe the proposal came form the british side and not the french one.

I think this implies some kind of responsibility.

Somewhat, having french club(s) in the english system was never really thought through nor what it could/should imply for both sides of the channels. We need a long-term contract that would explicit what this french experiment is about, what the end goal is and what should be made both sides to achieve it. It's never too late I guess.

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Gambass