England v Tonga series

[RP London]

6 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

FYI it most certainly is true.

Exotic location yes, likely home to a worthy competitor for an England team, no.

absolute rubbish.. as always your ability to understand the mentality of the English/British sports fan is massivly shown up.

[Tommygilf]

23 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Exactly, rugby fans are the only Brits aware of Tonga.  We know that the game has made little impact wuth RU fans in the past, and the public at large aren't likely to be favourably  impressed by a series against a country they've likely never even heard of.

How many England matches in London have you been to? Of those I've been to, I've been shocked by how many southerners were there. 

Even then, the target figure for this tour seems to be around 15 to 20k a match. Which is easy in London.

[gingerjon]

53 minutes ago, Dave T said:

That is in intentionally negative outlook.

You're being generous in calling it an outlook.

It's a nonsense that bears no relation to any kind of reality.

[Number 16]

31 minutes ago, RP London said:

I'm not taking my son out in Barnsley... he too young to know how bad the world and adult life can actually be  

So that's why we never see you back in Croydon!

[gingerjon]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I've been shocked by how many southerners were there. 

This isn't a dig because I've had the same experience but we've been playing in the south for decades ... but it really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone really. Rugby league is a great sport and internationals (should be) great events. There are people in London and the south who love going to them and will come along again.

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

To speak plainly, it wouldn't sell.

Tonga's a tiny, poor, insignificant country the public almost certainly knows nothing about, unless they follow RU.  They'd probably take the idea of a competitive series between England and such an insignificant little country as confirmation of the negative stereotype that RL is a small regional sport with limited appeal. 

Tonga fall into the same group of countries as Samoa and Fiji when it comes to rugby (of both codes).  The players are athletic and physical and are hugely entertaining to watch.  The fact that the game of League suits them more than Union is a bonus.

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

This isn't a dig because I've had the same experience but we've been playing in the south for decades ... but it really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone really. Rugby league is a great sport and internationals (should be) great events. There are people in London and the south who love going to them and will come along again.

We do need to be mindful of doing things well. I thought the World Cup Semi was really disappointing and in reality should have been much better. And I remember the game at Watford versus the Kiwis with 13k in, and at QPR with 15k in - so we do have to remember that it can't just be to play a game on some grass.

[The Masked Poster]

56 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

FYI it most certainly is true.

Exotic location yes, likely home to a worthy competitor for an England team, no.

Of course they are worthy. Besides, they are coming and Australia can't be arsed, so respect to them for that. 

[Havenlad80]

6 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Tonga fall into the same group of countries as Samoa and Fiji when it comes to rugby (of both codes).  The players are athletic and physical and are hugely entertaining to watch.  The fact that the game of League suits them more than Union is a bonus.

Now all that’s needed is to stop the flow of leagues Fijians switching to union and get their best players to switch to league.

[Tommygilf]

17 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

This isn't a dig because I've had the same experience but we've been playing in the south for decades ... but it really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone really. Rugby league is a great sport and internationals (should be) great events. There are people in London and the south who love going to them and will come along again.

I know, but obviously the stereotype that is reinforced is the opposite of that.

London and Leeds and 1x the North West or somewhere else should be our test series formula. Yet it seems we completely ignore that time and time again.

[Big Picture]

48 minutes ago, Click said:

I am not sure what geography is like in Canada, but people in the UK are very much aware of Tonga as a nation. 

They are eh?  What's your evidence for that?  And even if they're aware of it, whether they rate it as a draw worth their time, attention and money in the form of buying tickets is another matter entirely.

 

52 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Ah so you have to be good and RL and be a big country. What’s the criteria for big? Land mass, population? What does genuine mean?

We have to consider what the public at large thinks rather than just what current RL fans think.  By genuine I mean a genuinely representative team, with legitimate players known and accepted by the public of that country.

To reach the broader public, I suggest that the opponent needs to be from a country which they would consider a legitimate rival for England. With the exception of current and former Commonwealth countries in cricket and RU, I suggest that those countries are the countries which are big in soccer and the Olympics.

Tonga doesn't fit either category.

[RP London]

4 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

They are eh?  What's your evidence for that?  And even if they're aware of it, whether they rate it as a draw worth their time, attention and money in the form of buying tickets is another matter entirely.

 

We have to consider what the public at large thinks rather than just what current RL fans think.  By genuine I mean a genuinely representative team, with legitimate players known and accepted by the public of that country.

To reach the broader public, I suggest that the opponent needs to be from a country which they would consider a legitimate rival for England. With the exception of current and former Commonwealth countries in cricket and RU, I suggest that those countries are the countries which are big in soccer and the Olympics.

Tonga doesn't fit either category.

Just typing the bit in bold shows you have no idea about the british public and what they look out for when this sort of thing happens. If we played Brazil or Germany in RL people arent going to just assume they are good becuase they are good at Football, nor if we play China even though they are a top medaling country in random sports at the olympics!

[south yorkshire]

I would have gone with Warrington , Doncaster  and leeds

[Click]

9 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

They are eh?  What's your evidence for that?  And even if they're aware of it, whether they rate it as a draw worth their time, attention and money in the form of buying tickets is another matter entirely.

 

We have to consider what the public at large thinks rather than just what current RL fans think.  By genuine I mean a genuinely representative team, with legitimate players known and accepted by the public of that country.

To reach the broader public, I suggest that the opponent needs to be from a country which they would consider a legitimate rival for England. With the exception of current and former Commonwealth countries in cricket and RU, I suggest that those countries are the countries which are big in soccer and the Olympics.

Tonga doesn't fit either category.

I need zero evidence for it - You have claimed the British public don't know Tonga is a nation, I am not sure how you could possibly come to that conclusion. 

You can suggest who you think might be a "legitimate rival" but it doesn't mean anything. 

I have no idea what you mean by "genuinely representative team" and why a country being good at football or Olympics would have any affect on who the public thought was good competition for a Rugby League team.

Jamaica are amazing in the Olympics, but there will be no one that would see them as a legitimate rival in Rugby League.

[south yorkshire]

On 28/04/2023 at 10:49, Jughead said:

You know how many people watched England at Newcastle and London last year and how historically London crowds are high, right?  

London get a big game every year the second biggest game on the calendar where 60k plus northerns have to travel to, so why cant Londoners travel north to an international ? 

[Havenlad80]

4 minutes ago, south yorkshire said:

London get a big game every year the second biggest game on the calendar where 60k plus northerns have to travel to, so why cant Londoners travel north to an international ? 

Because a large number of them are casual fans .

[The Masked Poster]

12 minutes ago, south yorkshire said:

London get a big game every year the second biggest game on the calendar where 60k plus northerns have to travel to, so why cant Londoners travel north to an international ? 

Quite right, who wants these people at our game anyway? 

[south yorkshire]

2 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

Quite right, who wants these people at our game anyway? 

I am not saying I don't want them i'm just saying if you really want to see one of the internationals there is nothing stopping them travelling like we do for the challenge cup every year. If we could sell out a 3 match series which is proven to be a close affair why cant we expand series to 5 matches in the future taking games around more giving RFL more options.      

[Big Picture]

21 minutes ago, RP London said:

Just typing the bit in bold shows you have no idea about the british public and what they look out for when this sort of thing happens. If we played Brazil or Germany in RL people arent going to just assume they are good becuase they are good at Football, nor if we play China even though they are a top medaling country in random sports at the olympics!

Of course they won't assume that Brazil or Germany are good at RL, any more than they would if it was RU.  They'd need to good at it first.

17 minutes ago, Click said:

I need zero evidence for it - You have claimed the British public don't know Tonga is a nation, I am not sure how you could possibly come to that conclusion. 

You can suggest who you think might be a "legitimate rival" but it doesn't mean anything. 

I have no idea what you mean by "genuinely representative team" and why a country being good at football or Olympics would have any affect on who the public thought was good competition for a Rugby League team.

Jamaica are amazing in the Olympics, but there will be no one that would see them as a legitimate rival in Rugby League.

Outside of RU and RL (both sports followed by a minority of Brits) just where else would anyone in Britain have heard of Tonga then?  Unless you know where else that might be, then I stand by my statement that most Brits have never heard of Tonga.

Your mention of Jamaica is very apt. It's a considerably bigger country than Tonga, as you point out it's anazing in the Olympics and it's known around the world as the birthplace of reggae, so it's much more marketable than Tonga will ever be.  Unfortunately Jamaica wouldn't be competitive. 

I get that you and most others here don't understand that.  

What makes a team genuinely representative in international sport is that most of its players grew up there and have citizenship there, with at most a few others augmenting that core.  The public in major sporting countries like Brazil, Germany and the US wouldn't accept anything less as legitimate.  Whether the Jamaican public would hasn't been tested yet.

Tonga though is in a different category, it's so tiny and insignificant that the public there has to take what few crumbs of exposure/acceptance in the world come their way from time to time. 

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

We do need to be mindful of doing things well. I thought the World Cup Semi was really disappointing and in reality should have been much better. And I remember the game at Watford versus the Kiwis with 13k in, and at QPR with 15k in - so we do have to remember that it can't just be to play a game on some grass.

Agreed. But even when we do less than the minimum we hit 12k. It’s hard work to get 12k for a non tournament international in the heartlands. But we act like it’s the other way round.

[Dunbar]

17 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Your mention of Jamaica is very apt. It's a considerably bigger country than Tonga, as you point out it's anazing in the Olympics and it's known around the world as the birthplace of reggae, so it's much more marketable than Tonga will ever be.  Unfortunately Jamaica wouldn't be competitive. 

You know what, every time I enjoy watching a Jamaican athlete at the Olympics, I don't think 'and of course this is all the more relevant because they are representing the birthplace of reggae'!

[Big Picture]

9 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

You know what, every time I enjoy watching a Jamaican athlete at the Olympics, I don't think 'and of course this is all the more relevant because they are representing the birthplace of reggae'!

It's a unique claim to fame, something they can be proud of. As a result Reggae Warriors is a great nickname for a Jamaican national team

[Dunbar]

6 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

It's a unique claim to fame, something they can be proud of. As a result Reggae Warriors is a great nickname for a Jamaican national team

Of course they can be proud of it.  I am very happy if all people are proud of elements of their national heritage. 

But in the context of recognition as a sporting nation, it means nothing.  Nobody is watching Jamaican athletes or national teams because it is the home of reggae. 

[RP London]

45 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Of course they won't assume that Brazil or Germany are good at RL, any more than they would if it was RU.  They'd need to good at it first.

Outside of RU and RL (both sports followed by a minority of Brits) just where else would anyone in Britain have heard of Tonga then?  Unless you know where else that might be, then I stand by my statement that most Brits have never heard of Tonga.

Your mention of Jamaica is very apt. It's a considerably bigger country than Tonga, as you point out it's anazing in the Olympics and it's known around the world as the birthplace of reggae, so it's much more marketable than Tonga will ever be.  Unfortunately Jamaica wouldn't be competitive. 

I get that you and most others here don't understand that.  

What makes a team genuinely representative in international sport is that most of its players grew up there and have citizenship there, with at most a few others augmenting that core.  The public in major sporting countries like Brazil, Germany and the US wouldn't accept anything less as legitimate.  Whether the Jamaican public would hasn't been tested yet.

Tonga though is in a different category, it's so tiny and insignificant that the public there has to take what few crumbs of exposure/acceptance in the world come their way from time to time. 

But you said they needed to be known for another sport rather than rugby for the none rugby population to get interested, now they also need to be good at rugby... those pesky goal posts keep moving don't they! 

Look the UK public have a good enough knowledge to know teams that are good at different sports.. they don't need to also be good at other sports etc or just be a big country.. we can understand that, we're not north American where that is obviously a barrier.. 

Stop telling us things that don't matter as if they are the key to unlocking everything.. 

[The Masked Poster]

57 minutes ago, south yorkshire said:

I am not saying I don't want them i'm just saying if you really want to see one of the internationals there is nothing stopping them travelling like we do for the challenge cup every year. If we could sell out a 3 match series which is proven to be a close affair why cant we expand series to 5 matches in the future taking games around more giving RFL more options.      

Why would random people in London travel to Huddersfield to watch England RL? Not enough RL fans in those areas do anyway, so why do you expect non RL fans (or very casual ones) to do this??