Do we get value for money from Rugby League's non-executive directors?

[Martyn Sadler]

Are Rugby League’s NEDs doing the job we need them to do? – TotalRL.com | Rugby League Express | Rugby League World

[Jughead]

So, what you’re saying is you don’t know what their job descriptions are so can’t tell? That’s some top Callum Walker’ing. 

[Damien]

Absolutely not. As the sport has gone backwards in practically every available metric over the last 10 years then I think there had been some serious failings at both executive and non-exectutive level. Non executive directors are meant to challenge strategy, provide outside expertise and hold the executive leadership accountable but there seems little evidence of this and the relationship seems far too cosy.

[Guest]

Non-execs in all businesses are just grifters.

Easy paycheck for 1 day a month.

[Oxford]

16 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Are Rugby League’s NEDs doing the job we need them to do? – TotalRL.com | Rugby League Express | Rugby League World

No we keep picking people with busy lives when we need someone who will go all out, appear anywhere and everywhere and broadcast the cause ... we're not a sport that can afford fripperies!

 

[Martyn Sadler]

16 hours ago, Jughead said:

So, what you’re saying is you don’t know what their job descriptions are so can’t tell? That’s some top Callum Walker’ing. 

Can I just compliment you on your forum name!

It shows a remarkable degree of self awareness.

[Jughead]

16 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Can I just compliment you on your forum name!

It shows a remarkable degree of self awareness.

And that sums you and your writing up. It’s a dead, filler article but it’s not quite have one giant 36 team league and out West Wales on a pitch with Wigan. 

[Oxford]

I think maybe we should all read the admin post on abusive etc posts.

There's far too much of this sort of rubbish on here and from top to bottom no one is exempt from criticism on this issue.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Oxford

[Just Browny]

It is an interesting question to be asking and a tricky one to know the answer to. Insofar as the game is not realising its potential and the overall performance of the game is the board's responsibility, you'd have to say no it is not succeeding. But (from a weak and slow start) we have seen some really positive advances in areas like wheelchair and women's RL, so the direction of travel is somewhat positive.

I do think your article Martyn went a bit far in using Twitter as a barometer for good performance. Twitter is a useful tool, but NEDs are not really there to be 'influencers' and even if they all had amazing Twitter accounts I would expect the overall positive influence on the game to be quite small compared to other things they can do and shape behind the scenes.

[OnStrike]

3 hours ago, Jughead said:

And that sums you and your writing up. It’s a dead, filler article but it’s not quite have one giant 36 team league and out West Wales on a pitch with Wigan. 

It names the people who have responsibility for promoting the game. It outlines some of the salaries involved. It highlights that (for the money spent) there appears to be little measurable output from these people. It points out they don't use their position to promote rugby league very often. And it suggests some very simple steps that should be taken to start improving things.

I think your verdict there was very harsh! Not every article in a sports newspaper (or any paper) is going to be in depth, award winning investigative journalism. 

[Oxford]

1 hour ago, OnStrike said:

Not every article in a sports newspaper (or any paper) is going to be in depth, award winning investigative journalism. 

In England at this period of time that would be the equivalent ot whatever is rarer than hens' teeth!

The article in question however is about our sport and raises perfectly valid questions that we'd all like answers to.

From the sport's point of view though we've been beggars and choosers and sadly we don't have a queue of influencers and celebrities willing to do the hard yards and unfortunately many are simply chancers.

If some posts on here are anything to go by it's hard to see how we can expect anything else, to be honest.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

23 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Are Rugby League’s NEDs doing the job we need them to do? – TotalRL.com | Rugby League Express | Rugby League World

Rugby league: Appoints new NEDs with great backgrounds to advise the sport in the long term, as we navigate serious changes in our commercial strategy

Rugby league media, within 6 months: "Aren't the NEDs a waste of money, when was the last time they tweeted about rugby league? Oh, and where's that video I wanted?"

The mindset is so small-time, and short-term, it absolutely does my head in. Can we please stop running the sport reacting to the whims of a small cabal of aging people in West Yorkshire? Jesus wept. 

 

[LeeF]

As others have already posted it’s not a great article. How do you criticise if you don’t know exactly what they are or aren’t doing when compared to their contract.

The main purposes of NEDs are to bring skills which may be missing within the senior echelons of the governing body along with an outside perspective and in the case of RL some contacts. Not all NEDs necessarily need to have or bring all of the above.

Marketing the game or spreading the word should be done but to use Twitter as the measure is a poor one. At the end of the day the game has a marketing department and that is their main responsibility not the NEDs.

As in all things some NEDs will be better than others but without knowing what they are supposed to do how can you measure?

[LeeF]

21 hours ago, Leonard said:

Non-execs in all businesses are just grifters.

Easy paycheck for 1 day a month.

That’s completely wrong. Some NEDs do 2 or 3 days per month.
 

I’ve also come across in business a few who are good value

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

21 hours ago, Leonard said:

Non-execs in all businesses are just grifters.

Easy paycheck for 1 day a month.

My NEDs are brilliant. I get a level of advice, insight and experience that I can't afford to pay a full time role for, but it's there when we need it. They do NED roles for other types of businesses so well hooked in to new ideas we can use. Plus they do far more than the 1 day per month plus exes they get paid for - speak to them several times a week.  

Generally, like most things, you get out of them what you put in. They can't run your business for you. If you have intelligent exec leaders who are ambitious, inquisitive, ask good questions and listen to advice, then it works. If you have an average, ploddy leadership team then maybe you waste your money. My concern with the RFL is have we fixed that, much more important, component. More jobs for the - very average track record - boys. 

Maybe people like @Martyn Sadler should look there a bit more, instead of giving Woods, Rimmer et al a free pass for a decade as they let our sport drift into irrelevance?

[JohnM]

From a reputable source:

• Non-executive directors are independent advisors to a company and are members of the company’s board of directors.
• They help in strategy development within a company through positive criticism, external experience, and expertise.
• Non-executive directors oversee the activity of executive partners and help to ensure that they meet their objectives. ...

[LeeF]

7 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

My NEDs are brilliant. I get a level of advice, insight and experience that I can't afford to pay a full time role for, but it's there when we need it. They do NED roles for other types of businesses so well hooked in to new ideas we can use. Plus they do far more than the 1 day per month plus exes they get paid for - speak to them several times a week.  

Generally, like most things, you get out of them what you put in. They can't run your business for you. If you have intelligent exec leaders who are ambitious, inquisitive, ask good questions and listen to advice, then it works. If you have an average, ploddy leadership team then maybe you waste your money. My concern with the RFL is have we fixed that, much more important, component. More jobs for the - very average track record - boys. 

Maybe people like @Martyn Sadler should look there a bit more, instead of giving Woods, Rimmer et al a free pass for a decade as they let our sport drift into irrelevance?

A good NED is the business’ “critical friend” or the awkward so & so who challenges and asks the difficult questions. 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

7 minutes ago, LeeF said:

A good NED is the business’ “critical friend” or the awkward so & so who challenges and asks the difficult questions. 

Exactly. They're also there to represent the owners' interests, or in our case "wider stakeholders", and tell them honestly if they think the executive leadership is doing a good enough job for them... so I hope they're all over that bit!!  

[Martyn Sadler]

19 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Rugby league: Appoints new NEDs with great backgrounds to advise the sport in the long term, as we navigate serious changes in our commercial strategy

Rugby league media, within 6 months: "Aren't the NEDs a waste of money, when was the last time they tweeted about rugby league? Oh, and where's that video I wanted?"

The mindset is so small-time, and short-term, it absolutely does my head in. Can we please stop running the sport reacting to the whims of a small cabal of aging people in West Yorkshire? Jesus wept. 

 

What a curious post that is!

I'm not sure whether you read the article.

I didn't say that the NEDs are a waste of money - but that it would be useful for them to have a public profile supporting the game (and therefore their positions in it).

"The mindset is so small-time, and short-term".

It isn't either of those things. If Rugby League is going to have a long term future, supported by strong broadcasting contracts, it has to have a much higher profile and those people occupying key positions in the sport have to help it achieve that.

"Can we please stop running the sport reacting to the whims of a small cabal of aging people in West Yorkshire?"

What on earth you mean by this is anyone's guess.

[Martyn Sadler]

18 hours ago, LeeF said:

As others have already posted it’s not a great article. How do you criticise if you don’t know exactly what they are or aren’t doing when compared to their contract.

You can judge the article any way you like, but if you have to know the fine details of someone's contract before you can critique them, then you will never pass judgement on anyone, given that contracts are always confidential.

18 hours ago, LeeF said:

The main purposes of NEDs are to bring skills which may be missing within the senior echelons of the governing body along with an outside perspective and in the case of RL some contacts. Not all NEDs necessarily need to have or bring all of the above.

NEDs can serve a number of varying purposes. Frequently they are employed to bring skills to the table that are not already apparent within the organisation. In Rugby League, that should include the skill of bringing the sport to a wider audience, which even the greatest fans of the RFL would probably admit it hasn't excelled at.

18 hours ago, LeeF said:

Marketing the game or spreading the word should be done but to use Twitter as the measure is a poor one. At the end of the day the game has a marketing department and that is their main responsibility not the NEDs.

As Elon Musk has pointed out, Twitter is the world's market place of ideas. But if you know a better outlet, please feel free to name it. The RFL's marketing personnel, with the best will in the world, don't have a massive reach, so a significant objective should be to recruit NEDs who have a strong presence on Twitter or any other social media that you would favour.

 

18 hours ago, LeeF said:

As in all things some NEDs will be better than others but without knowing what they are supposed to do how can you measure?

As I've said earlier, a reluctance to criticise because you don't know the NEDs' precise terms of reference is an eccentric idea that, if followed, would cut out debate altogether.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said:

What a curious post that is!

I'm not sure whether you read the article.

I didn't say that the NEDs are a waste of money - but that it would be useful for them to have a public profile supporting the game (and therefore their positions in it).

"The mindset is so small-time, and short-term".

It isn't either of those things. If Rugby League is going to have a long term future, supported by strong broadcasting contracts, it has to have a much higher profile and those people occupying key positions in the sport have to help it achieve that.

"Can we please stop running the sport reacting to the whims of a small cabal of aging people in West Yorkshire?"

What on earth you mean by this is anyone's guess.

I read the post. My comments referred directly to depressingly odd things you said in the article. My comments elsewhere in the thread provide a fuller, constructive description of precisely where, how and why your thinking on their value is too limited. Their role isn't to promote the game. 

If you don't know what I meant by the cabal comment I've a bridge to sell you. 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Hull Kingston Bronco

[sweaty craiq]

2 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

What a curious post that is!

I'm not sure whether you read the article.

I didn't say that the NEDs are a waste of money - but that it would be useful for them to have a public profile supporting the game (and therefore their positions in it).

"The mindset is so small-time, and short-term".

It isn't either of those things. If Rugby League is going to have a long term future, supported by strong broadcasting contracts, it has to have a much higher profile and those people occupying key positions in the sport have to help it achieve that.

"Can we please stop running the sport reacting to the whims of a small cabal of aging people in West Yorkshire?"

What on earth you mean by this is anyone's guess.

Who are the non execs of our biggest sport ie the soccer Premier league

[LeeF]

2 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

You can judge the article any way you like, but if you have to know the fine details of someone's contract before you can critique them, then you will never pass judgement on anyone, given that contracts are always confidential.

NEDs can serve a number of varying purposes. Frequently they are employed to bring skills to the table that are not already apparent within the organisation. In Rugby League, that should include the skill of bringing the sport to a wider audience, which even the greatest fans of the RFL would probably admit it hasn't excelled at.

As Elon Musk has pointed out, Twitter is the world's market place of ideas. But if you know a better outlet, please feel free to name it. The RFL's marketing personnel, with the best will in the world, don't have a massive reach, so a significant objective should be to recruit NEDs who have a strong presence on Twitter or any other social media that you would favour.

 

As I've said earlier, a reluctance to criticise because you don't know the NEDs' precise terms of reference is an eccentric idea that, if followed, would cut out debate altogether.

I think you are struggling Martyn but here goes. 
 

1. I never mentioned fine details. Usually appointments are announced as x will being y to the role. If this isn’t the case then maybe a journalist could ask the questions. I would ask the questions but they wouldn’t answer questions from a “fan”.

2. That’s your opinion. The game has got gaps, some very significant, so horses for courses but not every NED should be solely responsible for bringing the game to a wider audience. 
 

3. You may buy into Mr Musk’s sales spiel but there are other places for advertising the sport and I stand by the fact that this is primarily the responsibility of the marketing department. If the latter aren’t doing their jobs then the appropriate questions should be asked, by both NEDs and non NEDs, and changes implemented. 
 

4. That isn’t what I said and you probably know that so I’ll leave it there other than to say it reads as a very silly response from you

[Martyn Sadler]

9 minutes ago, LeeF said:

I think you are struggling Martyn but here goes. 
 

1. I never mentioned fine details. Usually appointments are announced as x will being y to the role. If this isn’t the case then maybe a journalist could ask the questions. I would ask the questions but they wouldn’t answer questions from a “fan”.

I'm afraid your thinking is wide of the mark.

"How do you criticise if you don’t know exactly what they are or aren’t doing when compared to their contract," is what you wrote (my bold).

I would have thought that the use of the word "exactly" implied the fine detail of their contract. Otherwise you might have worded your response differently.

Your remaining comments have been covered before, but I would advise you there's a time and place for labelling some comments as 'silly', but in this case I don't appreciate your arrogance and condescension. You are clearly not a fool, but that attitude spoils any genuine points that you might make.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

@Martyn Sadler to help evolve our expectations, rather than directly promoting the sport (which is the exec team and their functions' jobs), here's why our NEDs are here:

• Frank Slevin. Chair - corporate governance; brings personal business networks and credibility for commercial partners, direct transferrable experience from British Cycling
• Anna Chanduvi - expert in content strategy and media rights, especially social and direct-distribution; ideal person to evaluate, mentor and guide the Commercial team as they focus on this given rapid change in the media landscape already and more ahead of us
• Peter Hutton - expert in sports media; personal networks in Eurosport, Sky/Fox and also Meta; ideal person to evaluate our go-to-market as we sell product to media firms, advise on whether we're getting market rate etc., have back door "network" conversations to understand the art of the possible outside of direct negotiations
• Jonathan Murphy - ex CFO in FTSE 250 firms; ideal person to monitor financial governance, ensuring the exec team have the right financial plans and reporting in place, and that the IMG/RFL joint venture is a clean and transparent one for both parties

None of those things involve directly promoting the game. None of their effectiveness can be evaluated by checking their twitter feed, or whether Super League has got a new promo video out yet

The time to evaluate the strategy, and the NEDs contribution to it, is probably in 3 years minimum. Most of what they do won't be visible to outsiders even then. Personally I'd much rather our rugby league media spent a little more time holding the sport's executive leadership to account. You've spent over a decade defending the Woods and Rimmer regime, as they drove our sport into the ground, so it's a bit weird to see you now become Mr Rapid Accountability.