Combined Championship and League 1 ???

[Derwent Parker]

7 minutes ago, Griff said:

"and make L1 -15 teams home and away twice = 28 games"

That's 56 games - but, hey, I'm guessing that's just a typo.

Here's an equally easy answer.

Championship of 14 teams playing each other home and away - 26 games.

League One of nine teams playing each other three times - 24 games.

Or better still, just home and away.   We play too many games.

correct was a typo - thanks - Just edited it.

the reason i suggested the middle league being 8 - if they dont merge and split into E & W divisions - was because you referred to you the big scores 

8 similarly "strong" teams of similar ability playing each other should make them stronger and more ready for SL

 

 

[Dave W]

I don't dislike the idea of two parallel conferences below SL but I don't like the idea of doing it via an East/West split.

The 'West' side would be doing an awful lot of travelling compared to the 'East' - an unfair financial disadvantage compared to the majority of the 'East' clubs who are largely within an hour's drive of each other, often much less. If 'East' clubs don't have to travel so much, maybe they should have less central funding?

 

[Derwent Parker]

6 minutes ago, Dave W said:

I don't dislike the idea of two parallel conferences below SL but I don't like the idea of doing it via an East/West split.

The 'West' side would be doing an awful lot of travelling compared to the 'East' - an unfair financial disadvantage compared to the majority of the 'East' clubs who are largely within an hour's drive of each other, often much less. If 'East' clubs don't have to travel so much, maybe they should have less central funding?

 

Wont East have London and Toulouse - West Cornwall and Mildlands - the rest pretty Central

[Griff]

17 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

correct was a typo - thanks - Just edited it.

the reason i suggested the middle league being 8 - if they dont merge and split into E & W divisions - was because you referred to you the big scores 

8 similarly "strong" teams of similar ability playing each other should make them stronger and more ready for SL

 

 

Of course, we had a similar 14-8-14 split in 1991.

Lasted two seasons.

Just saying ..... maybe, after 30 years, folk will have forgotten it.

[Barley Mow]

14 minutes ago, Dave W said:

I don't dislike the idea of two parallel conferences below SL but I don't like the idea of doing it via an East/West split.

The 'West' side would be doing an awful lot of travelling compared to the 'East' - an unfair financial disadvantage compared to the majority of the 'East' clubs who are largely within an hour's drive of each other, often much less. If 'East' clubs don't have to travel so much, maybe they should have less central funding?

 

The clubs located at the geographic extremes are going to have more travelling no matter what the system.

In an east conference, Toulouse, London and Newcastle would have longer journeys most weeks. In the west one Cornwall, Workington, Whitehaven would.

It might be fairer to reduce everyone's central funding and replace the reduction with a travel allowance per mile from the RFL for everyone. Who knows how the clubs would react to either suggestion though.

[Derwent Parker]

1 minute ago, Barley Mow said:

The clubs located at the geographic extremes are going to have more travelling no matter what the system.

In an east conference, Toulouse, London and Newcastle would have longer journeys most weeks. In the west one Cornwall, Workington, Whitehaven would.

It might be fairer to reduce everyone's central funding and replace the reduction with a travel allowance per mile from the RFL for everyone. Who knows how the clubs would react to either suggestion though.

Assuming [I know you should never assume etc] that Fev go up

There are more East teams left than West so unless Keighley [most western in East group] are in West then Probably Newcastle [most Northern]

[Barley Mow]

36 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

Assuming [I know you should never assume etc] that Fev go up

There are more East teams left than West so unless Keighley [most western in East group] are in West then Probably Newcastle [most Northern]

I had worked on the assumption that Featherstone go up, but all six of the clubs in the play-offs are in the east and one of them has to go up:

West - Halifax, Widnes, Swinton, Barrow, Haven, Keighley, Workington, Oldham, Rochdale, N Wales, Midlands, Cornwall (the 12 furthest west)

East - Wakefield, Toulouse, Bradford, Sheffield, London, York, Batley, Newcastle, Dewsbury, Doncaster, Hunslet (the 11 furthest east)

The core for them (as we would expect) is a band from N Wales in the west to York and Doncaster in the east. Each group would have 7 or 8 in that area. The clubs outside of that belt would have longer journeys to most of their away games, as they do already.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Derwent Parker]

31 minutes ago, Griff said:

Of course, we had a similar 14-8-14 split in 1991.

Lasted two seasons.

Just saying ..... maybe, after 30 years, folk will have forgotten it.

I remember we were in the 8 that year and were relegated to div3

promoted back to div 2 in 1992 - Then they went back to the good old format of 2 x 16 divisions.

promoted back to div 1 in 1993 

That was all before the Sky money drove a great wedge between the haves and have nots.

All teams went up and down the leagues on merit [on the field ]without going bankrupt.

Even worse coming now "not on the field" its gonna be on the spreadsheets

[Derwent Parker]

12 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

I had worked on the assumption that Featherstone go up (simply because they finished top and conferences would be based on 23 rather than 24 teams):

West - Halifax, Widnes, Swinton, Barrow, Haven, Keighley, Workington, Oldham, Rochdale, N Wales, Midlands, Cornwall (the 12 furthest west)

East - Wakefield, Toulouse, Bradford, Sheffield, London, York, Batley, Newcastle, Dewsbury, Doncaster, Hunslet (the 11 furthest east)

The core for them (as we would expect) is a band from N Wales in the west to York and Doncaster in the east. East group would have 7 or 8 in that area. The clubs outside of that belt would have longer journeys to most of their away games.

I prefer that to what we have now, as it usually will allow for lots of Derby matches each year and in our case 100% better than the season we just had.

And in Workington case, every away match we have had since 1945 apart from Haven as been a trek- so only Cornwall and Midlands are longer, the rest are just the usual away match.

And there is no reason the Summer bash has to be scrapped as someone said earlier - just have 2 an Eastern version and a western version

[Griff]

11 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

And there is no reason the Summer bash has to be scrapped as someone said earlier - just have 2 an Eastern version and a western version

How will that work with 11 ?  Run me through the pairings.

[Derwent Parker]

12 minutes ago, Griff said:

How will that work with 11 ?  Run me through the pairings.

Well the Lowest ranked Team in the 11 [bottom of table] could play against one of the top NCL Teams as an invitation.

Some may say NCL are as strong/stronger than bottom of semi pro leagues? - I dont know but If the team is bottom of league then the 2 points gained wont affect the league too much - unfortunate the NCL team wont gain any points but hopefully have a good time and showing their skills etc as they do in CC.

Or it could be against Royal Navy / Army team etc.

The other 5 games picked as normal derbies etc.

Wheres there's a will there's a way

Edited September 27, 2023 by Derwent Parker
missed a bit

[Click]

48 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

I remember we were in the 8 that year and were relegated to div3

promoted back to div 2 in 1992 - Then they went back to the good old format of 2 x 16 divisions.

promoted back to div 1 in 1993 

That was all before the Sky money drove a great wedge between the haves and have nots.

All teams went up and down the leagues on merit [on the field ]without going bankrupt.

Even worse coming now "not on the field" its gonna be on the spreadsheets

No rugby league teams went bankrupt in the 1990s before Sky money was involved?

[Dave W]

1 hour ago, Derwent Parker said:

Wont East have London and Toulouse - West Cornwall and Mildlands - the rest pretty Central

No disrespect to Cornwall and Birmingham but it does smack of cherry-picking: "We'll have the sexy London and South of France trips for the long weekends - you can have the other two"

[Click]

4 minutes ago, Dave W said:

No disrespect to Cornwall and Birmingham but it does smack of cherry-picking: "We'll have the sexy London and South of France trips for the long weekends - you can have the other two"

Some people hate that they even have to travel to London, now we are "sexy London". 

Nice change of pace.

[Derwent Parker]

6 minutes ago, Dave W said:

No disrespect to Cornwall and Birmingham but it does smack of cherry-picking: "We'll have the sexy London and South of France trips for the long weekends - you can have the other two"

Well if Toulouse are gonna continue to fund their matches for away teams {I read this , not sure how accurate} or if RFL are helping with travel then of course, the sexier the better?  Who doesn't like sexy. 

Well lets hope Mr Admin does or i will be banned again?

[Derwent Parker]

14 minutes ago, Click said:

No rugby league teams went bankrupt in the 1990s before Sky money was involved?

usually from bad management not from trying to keep up with the unfair distribution of sky money.

[Click]

1 minute ago, Derwent Parker said:

usually from bad management not from trying to keep up with the unfair distribution of sky money.

You could argue that "trying to keep up with the unfair distribution of sky money" could be bad management as well.

RL clubs have gone into and out of existence long before sky money got involved in the game.

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

As noted in posts above, any amalgamation of the Championship and League 1 will have shortcomings.  However, if it is felt to be a necessity, then a third structural option (don't think it's been suggested, but apologies if it has) would be three, loosely geographically based divisions, as follows:

North West:  Barrow, NW Crusaders,, Oldham, Rochdale, Swinton, Whitehaven, Widnes, Workington. (8 teams)

West Yorkshire: Batley, Bradford, Dewsbury, Halifax, Hunslet, Keighley, Wakefield. (7)

York, South Yorkshire and other areas:  Cornwall, Doncaster, London, Midland H, Newcastle, Sheffield, Toulouse, York. (8)

Each team plays those in its division twice (once each H & A) and those in each of the other divisions once.  So sides in the two eight-team divisions get 29 games each and the other division's teams 28.

Play-offs could be reached by not being in the bottom five in your division; in other words, the NW and YSYOA top three and the WY top two.  Then straight knock out games to decide the champions, possibly with this format in the first round (aka the quarter finals):

NW1 v YSYOA3; YSYOA1 v NW3; WY1 v NW2; and YSYOA2 v WY2, possibly with a toss of the coin to decide home advantage for that last tie, given it would be between two divisional runners-up.  Then semi-finals and a final.  So each game means elimination for the loser.

Like all suggestions, not ideal, I know.  However, it does maximise local derbies; even the somewhat catch-all third division has a geogrphically quite tight group (Doncaster, York and Sheffield) within it, with two more teams a drive up or down the A1 !

[idrewthehaggis]

2 hours ago, Derwent Parker said:

correct was a typo - thanks - Just edited it.

the reason i suggested the middle league being 8 - if they dont merge and split into E & W divisions - was because you referred to you the big scores 

8 similarly "strong" teams of similar ability playing each other should make them stronger and more ready for SL

 

 

Surely the IMG review will give an opinion on

A. Which clubs are now SL quality,

B. Which have the aspiration and

C. Which aren't. 

I'd suggest B would be the Championship or SL2.

C would be League One in a shadow intermediate structure.

So Senior structure - SL 1 and SL2 and Challenge Cup

Intermediate-League One and 1895 Cup.

[Griff]

20 minutes ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

York, South Yorkshire and other areas:  Cornwall, Doncaster, London, Midland H, Newcastle, Sheffield, Toulouse, York. (8)

Some fantastic (and I mean the word literally) local derbies in there.

It's almost like you've put together two groups then swept the rest off the floor.

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Griff said:

Some fantastic (and I mean the word literally) local derbies in there.

It's almost like you've put together two groups then swept the rest off the floor.

Yes, in a way, I have!  In a mix of geographically far flung clubs, there are bound to be some long trips, as there have been this season.

[Griff]

8 minutes ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

Yes, in a way, I have!  In a mix of geographically far flung clubs, there are bound to be some long trips, as there have been this season.

So you thought it'd be a good idea to put them all in one group,

[Barley Mow]

Not a serious suggestion, but I wondered what it would look like splitting the conferences North/South rather than East/West.

We would get:

North - Newcastle, Workington, Whitehaven, Barrow, York, Keighley, Bradford, Halifax, Batley, Dewsbury, Wakefield & Hunslet

South - Toulouse, Cornwall, London, Midlands, N Wales, Sheffield, Doncaster, Widnes, Swinton, Oldham & Rochdale.

It would be surprisingly well balanced, with three of the current championship play-off contenders in each (Wakefield replacing Featherstone - making an assumption) and the clubs currently due to be in L1 next year split 5-4. Distance travelled weighted to the south group though!

Edited September 27, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Phil W]

21 minutes ago, Griff said:

Some fantastic (and I mean the word literally) local derbies in there.

It's almost like you've put together two groups then swept the rest off the floor.

I'm all for suggestions but that would be wild as a Thunder fan! Us, York, Doncaster and Broncos could play for the East Coast mainline Cup. Maybe call the league Millwall (nobody likes us we don't care)!

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

Some fantastic (and I mean the word literally) local derbies in there.

It's almost like you've put together two groups then swept the rest off the floor.

Actually, Griff, I don't think you do mean 'literally'.  Here is my group of eight - Cornwall, Doncaster, London, Midland H, Newcastle, Sheffield, Toulouse, York.  I take matches between York, and Doncaster, and Doncaster and Sheffield to be local derbies.  I don't think other matches would be local derbies and have not suggested that I thought they would be.

Four of the other teams were willing and able to travel to Toulouse this season and a fifth has implied a willingness to do so under current arrangements for 2024.  Cornwall and Midland Hurricanes have shown this season a willingness and ability to travel to London and Workington, and next season, unless they withdraw, a willingness to go to Newcastle (which, in terms of mileage, will be about on a par with travelling to Workington)

1 hour ago, Griff said:

So you thought it'd be a good idea to put them all in one group,

Yes, not least of all to maximise local derbies elsewhere.  I consider all matches involving teams in my West Yorkshire group to be derbies and some in my North West group - i.e. Whitehaven v Workington games, plus those involving any two of Rochdale, Swinton and Oldham and, possibly (depending where the latter play), Widnes v North Wales matches.

This thread is about the 'what if' scenario that sees the championship and league 1 combined.  I would prefer to see two competitions retained, with ability on the field of play being the basis for choosing who plays in which.  But, as I say, that is not what this thread is about and in the spirit of it, I have suggested an option to a two-division/conference format.

So, come on, Griff, how would you organise a single (and that's the key word) competition for the 23 teams in question?  Please share your masterplan with us!