What do SL execs think about Catalan making OT

[Keep The Faith]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

Should ' make ' , as in if you dont sell them you still have to pay for them ? 

Yes! 
 

You’d get clubs running trips for less than £60/70 and they’d make a profit 

[Toby Chopra]

21 minutes ago, Dave T said:

On your first line - what is the evidence? If that really was the case and it was such an issue, wouldn't we offload Catalans? 

This is brought up by fans on boards like this and the odd owner every now and then who want an English game. 

Let me have check back. I thought I had read that RFL had warned clubs about this at this week's meetings (as much because of the CCF shortfall as Cats) and some chairman had expressed concern. But it could have been Gledhill!

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I'm not saying clubs shouldn't include distributions from finals, they certainly should, I'm just saying they should ensure that they don't budget for something that isn't guaranteed to happen and is completely out of their control. If the distribution ends up being higher, add it to reserves or the season after's budget.

(Also, as an aside, I'd say only having turnstile income shouldn't be an aim for any sport, it's a sign of weakness in the modern world. Our aim should be TV deals and international revenues that dwarf our spectator income.)

You contradict yourself , how with P and R can you be certain you're getting TV money next year ? 

Yes we all know what we should be aiming for , achieving it is the problem 

[Toby Chopra]

3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

You contradict yourself , how with P and R can you be certain you're getting TV money next year ? 

Yes we all know what we should be aiming for , achieving it is the problem 

I'm not quite sure of the point you're making. With P&R you're quite right that you don't have any income visibility, and this has been catastrophic for some clubs. That's why we're moving away from it, so clubs can budget realistically. Income that is highly volatile and unpredictable shouldn't be the basis of an operating budget.

As for we all know what we're aiming for, I don't think there's any consensus on that at all, but that's not just a rugby league thing.

[Damien]

Trying to blame Catalans for the RFL being heavily dependent on the right teams getting to the SL and Challenge Cup final completely misses the real problems. Proceeds from these events beyond a certain base level should be cream on the top, not core parts of revenue.

The failure of the RFL when it comes to generating revenue, in particular through the international game and sponsorship, leads us to this situation. They are even making a complete ballsup of the Tonga series, when they do finally show a bit of initiative, because they are paralysed and hamstrung by their failings, meaning they are scared to make the correct decisins and are scared to speculate to accumulate.

[GUBRATS]

5 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I'm not quite sure of the point you're making. With P&R you're quite right that you don't have any income visibility, and this has been catastrophic for some clubs. That's why we're moving away from it, so clubs can budget realistically. Income that is highly volatile and unpredictable shouldn't be the basis of an operating budget.

As for we all know what we're aiming for, I don't think there's any consensus on that at all, but that's not just a rugby league thing.

We need P and R 

I've advocated in the past that the salary cap should be based on a % of income generated from the previous season , so if you want to spend more , you have to find more income , obviously that creates problems with long term costs like players contracts , but it would focus the mind more 

Also I've suggested in the past idea's for lower tier clubs to pool resources for their mutual benefit without taking away their ability to control their own income , but lack of business acumen gets in the way 

[GUBRATS]

6 minutes ago, Damien said:

Trying to blame Catalans for the RFL being heavily dependent on the right teams getting to the SL and Challenge Cup final completely misses the real problems. Proceeds from these events beyond a certain base level should be cream on the top, not core parts of revenue.

The failure of the RFL when it comes to generating revenue, in particular through the international game and sponsorship, leads us to this situation. They are even making a complete ballsup of the Tonga series, when they do finally show a bit of initiative, because they are paralysed and hamstrung by their failings, meaning they are scared to make the correct decisins and are scared to speculate to accumulate.

It all sounds really simple , until it's you making the decisions 

[The Masked Poster]

28 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

And that would be great if the sport was played at a similar level in half a dozen countries across Europe 

Can you see the problem ? 

It doesn’t have to match soccer or even try-it’s about maximising opportunities and not just saying “well there’s no point in doing this because we can’t see a return after 5 minutes”.

At one point the notion of taking the Challenge Cup to Wembley was dismissed as ludicrous. England didn’t enter the initial few first football world cups nor domestic teams play in European competitions. The point is that things change, just throwing your hands up and saying “it’s always been this way” never changes anything. 

 

[The Masked Poster]

6 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

It all sounds really simple , until it's you making the decisions 

So who is it making the decisions? Because they are not doing a good job. And if you are going to say “could you do any better?” Who knows but if there’s no accountability then I’ll have a bash. 

[Damien]

8 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

It all sounds really simple , until it's you making the decisions 

Their decisions and the decisions of successive administrators have led to this situation. No one else's.

[binosh]

Catalans are an example of a well run Rugby League club, they deserve their spot at Old Trafford. They have been top of SL for 3/4 of the season so really the RFL should have been planning for this outcome. However!

There will always be the counter argument surrounding the benefit of their inclusion in the English game, IF they had brought any TV deal to the table with any reasonable money to throw into the pot then it would be a no brainer, but they have had since 2006 and we are still no closer to that materialising even though Toulouse have been there or there abouts for 5 years. If they did miraculously negotiate a TV deal would they even be willing to throw it in the pot?

Yesterday they had only 2 french lads in the starting 13 with 3 more on the bench so they are still really no further on than they were in 2006, 6 of the starting players were English. Is the French national team any better than it was? Are they improving?

Let’s not forget the French federation cancelled the World Cup, there is a distinct lack of appetite to promote RL in France but yet it seems to be the responsibility of the English game/Sky Sports to fund/televise/promote the game over there, how hard are they working to invest and fund a full time professional system over there? They have already removed themselves from the Challenge Cup, Toulouse now even choose to opt out!

All this is before we even talk about our principal sponsor can’t be used in France, before we talk about away fans, do Sky even care about Catalans, would they rather see another English club back in the top flight with potential to sell dishes/subscriptions/ advertising.Could the money spent on travel help fund a 14 team Super League??

It not hard to understand why so many CEO’s question their viability as they will see the affected support and income more than most.

[The Masked Poster]

5 minutes ago, binosh said:

Catalans are an example of a well run Rugby League club, they deserve their spot at Old Trafford. They have been top of SL for 3/4 of the season so really the RFL should have been planning for this outcome. However!

There will always be the counter argument surrounding the benefit of their inclusion in the English game, IF they had brought any TV deal to the table with any reasonable money to throw into the pot then it would be a no brainer, but they have had since 2006 and we are still no closer to that materialising even though Toulouse have been there or there abouts for 5 years. If they did miraculously negotiate a TV deal would they even be willing to throw it in the pot?

Yesterday they had only 2 french lads in the starting 13 with 3 more on the bench so they are still really no further on than they were in 2006, 6 of the starting players were English. Is the French national team any better than it was? Are they improving?

Let’s not forget the French federation cancelled the World Cup, there is a distinct lack of appetite to promote RL in France but yet it seems to be the responsibility of the English game/Sky Sports to fund/televise/promote the game over there, how hard are they working to invest and fund a full time professional system over there? They have already removed themselves from the Challenge Cup, Toulouse now even choose to opt out!

All this is before we even talk about our principal sponsor can’t be used in France, before we talk about away fans, do Sky even care about Catalans, would they rather see another English club back in the top flight with potential to sell dishes/subscriptions/ advertising.Could the money spent on travel help fund a 14 team Super League??

It not hard to understand why so many CEO’s question their viability as they will see the affected support and income more than most.

So we have CEO’s of consistently poor clubs on constant paltry attendances questioning the viability of a well run and money generating club with bigger attendances? 
And we wonder why RL performs so badly outside a handful of big club finals? Absolute insanity. 
 

And let’s be honest if we’re going down that road of “what do they bring to the table and how many players do they develop” then this leaves several SL teams for the chop. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by The Masked Poster

[GUBRATS]

7 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

It doesn’t have to match soccer or even try-it’s about maximising opportunities and not just saying “well there’s no point in doing this because we can’t see a return after 5 minutes”.

At one point the notion of taking the Challenge Cup to Wembley was dismissed as ludicrous. England didn’t enter the initial few first football world cups nor domestic teams play in European competitions. The point is that things change, just throwing your hands up and saying “it’s always been this way” never changes anything. 

 

Which is fine if you can afford it , we can't , as I put a couple of posts ago , " it's easy until it's your decision " , because usually at that point there's a sheet of paper in front of you with a costing on it 

[The Masked Poster]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

Which is fine if you can afford it , we can't , as I put a couple of posts ago , " it's easy until it's your decision " , because usually at that point there's a sheet of paper in front of you with a costing on it 

We can’t afford NOT to. 

[GUBRATS]

I'm amazed the many billionaires we have posting on these threads don't get a grip of our sport and take it to the required levels , it really is so easy

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

We can’t afford NOT to. 

Lend them the money then

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, The Masked Poster said:

And this years Wembley final was locking them out was it? 
 

And do you seriously regard a club that has bigger attendances than most, brings in serious hospitality money and adds a glamour to the game as “a luxury worth having”? I mean honestly? That’s insane.

If the Commercial Dept did their job better, there would be a scramble for tickets every year regardless, the GF is a great event. I’d suggest that if you can’t sell it to a wider sporting audience then you should fall on your sword and leave it to someone who could. 

Actually Masky I meant to say "on the back of a relatively small Wembley attendance this year" but was called away.

Yes Catalan is all you say, but I also said "Catalan are good for Catalan" please tell me different.

You then go onto what those execs in question need to do to make our showpiece events more popular, not what Catalan or any other club for that matter on top of the RFL's efforts need to do if they make the final.

Question for you if Wigan and Saints contested this years final would you expect the crowd to be bigger than if Catalan were one of the competeing teams? There is a one week window before the finalists are known, and lots of fans will see if their team gets to Old Trafford before making the expenditure, this will never change in Rugby League, with the best will in the world Catalan fans won't be coming in numbers it will be very expensive at such short notice to do so. The RFL know that finalists from France will also bring reduced attendances, so I repeat is Catalan in the bigger picture 'a luxury worth having' yes Catalan are very good for themselves the Catalan club with their crowds, sponsorship, hospitality, transport providers, hotels and for the local economy with the number of away fans who attend, but does that do the clubs here any favours financially? and also If Toulouse make the Championship GF at Fev that will not be as well attended for the very same reasons as if it was say Bradford, now tell me who both the RFL and Fev would for commercial reasons prefer to have them visit for the final.

In any other buisness, French additions to the RFL competitions could be construed as 'loss leaders' if of the back of them it put more money into the bigger pot, but do they?

[The Masked Poster]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

Lend them the money then

OK mate, let’s have a few more years of hedging bets and hoping Saints and Wigan play every final, or maybe Leeds, before disappearing from public consciousness and having the GF at Batley (Guaranteed sell out right?) like the good old days. 
 

Plus like I’d lend those jokers any money anyway

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Archie Gordon said:

Some of us look at Catalan (and TO, etc) as an opportunity, others as a threat.

My view is that it's those who view them as a threat that hold the game back. If there was another European club with a ~10k following and a ~10m turnover, I'd love to get them involved. Some SL chairmen wouldn't.

Why do you think that is Archie, and please remember we are discussing commercial aspects? 

Same question also to the four likes for your response, 

[Dave T]

52 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Let me have check back. I thought I had read that RFL had warned clubs about this at this week's meetings (as much because of the CCF shortfall as Cats) and some chairman had expressed concern. But it could have been Gledhill!

Cheers. The reason I ask is that in reality, a hit of 15k on the attendance probably means that clubs may miss out on £20k each or that kind of ballpark figure. 

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

OK mate, let’s have a few more years of hedging bets and hoping Saints and Wigan play every final, or maybe Leeds, before disappearing from public consciousness and having the GF at Batley (Guaranteed sell out right?) like the good old days. 
 

Plus like I’d lend those jokers any money anyway

I doubt they'd lend you any either 

This will probably go down a rabbit hole but 

I assume you've set up and run successful businesses? , been involved in running a pro club ? 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Bradman Better said:

I think that a Catalans vs Wigan GF will excite lots of neutral fans -- especially many from the bigger clubs like St Helens, Warrington, Leeds and Hull FC -- and many of such "neutrals" will go to the game and cheer for Catalans.

Hopefully, but I doubt it, too short notice, would love to be proved wrong though.

[binosh]

15 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

So we have CEO’s of consistently poor clubs on constant paltry attendances questioning the viability of a well run and money generating club with bigger attendances? 
And we wonder why RL performs so badly outside a handful of big club finals? Absolute insanity. 
 

And let’s be honest if we’re going down that road of “what do they bring to the table and how many players do they develop” then this leaves several SL teams for the chop. 

How does Catalans being well run, with good home attendances that generate them money help Super League and the RFL commercially? 

[The Masked Poster]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Actually Masky I meant to say "on the back of a relatively small Wembley attendance this year" but was called away.

Yes Catalan is all you say, but I also said "Catalan are good for Catalan" please tell me different.

You then go onto what those execs in question need to do to make our showpiece events more popular, not what Catalan or any other club for that matter on top of the RFL's efforts need to do if they make the final.

Question for you if Wigan and Saints contested this years final would you expect the crowd to be bigger than if Catalan were one of the competeing teams? There is a one week window before the finalists are known, and lots of fans will see if their team gets to Old Trafford before making the expenditure, this will never change in Rugby League, with the best will in the world Catalan fans won't be coming in numbers it will be very expensive at such short notice to do so. The RFL know that finalists from France will also bring reduced attendances, so I repeat is Catalan in the bigger picture 'a luxury worth having' yes Catalan are very good for themselves the Catalan club with their crowds, sponsorship, hospitality, transport providers, hotels and for the local economy with the number of away fans who attend, but does that do the clubs here any favours financially? and also If Toulouse make the Championship GF at Fev that will not be as well attended for the very same reasons as if it was say Bradford, now tell me who both the RFL and Fev would for commercial reasons prefer to have them visit for the final.

In any other buisness, French additions to the RFL competitions could be construed as 'loss leaders' if of the back of them it put more money into the bigger pot, but do they?

Of course Catalan are the prime beneficiaries of a successful Catalan club, just like Leigh winning the CC this year was primarily of benefit to Leigh and precious comfort to Hull KR. 

But the wider picture shows that successful well run clubs like Catalans have a knock on effect that can’t necessarily be quantified in £X.
Just like the development officers that led to an influx of southern and welsh players joining RL clubs but have been dumped long since. You might (and no doubt will] argue that we should merely stick to West Yorkshire and parts of Lancashire for players but anyone with the long term interest of the game can see that it’s not really a choice, it has to change or vanish from public consciousness. That might not bother you as you can watch the local amateur sides but it will affect the future of the game. 

[Dave T]

It's naive to expect 15k fans from elsewhere to just be attracted and turn up. In reality, many many fans just aren't interested in spending decent money and time on a neutral game. There are of course thousands who are interested, and they will be going if they can. 

But if the gate receipts are down by say, a quarter of a million after all costs then it's really a modest amount between 12 clubs. The financial impact is being overstated, I suspect by people with agendas.