NRL Salary Cap Exemption for Rival Code Signings

[unapologetic pedant]

22 minutes ago, AB90 said:

If the Warriors sign an All Black with some kind of decent profile that player would instantly become the most high profile New Zealand rugby league player on the planet with significantly more media attention on him than any existing New Zealand rugby league player.

That's precisely why I'm against it.

 

22 minutes ago, AB90 said:

Maybe let’s agree to disagree.

Couldn't agree more.

[Big Picture]

1 hour ago, AB90 said:

If the Warriors sign an All Black with some kind of decent profile that player would instantly become the most high profile New Zealand rugby league player on the planet with significantly more media attention on him than any existing New Zealand rugby league player.

There would be incredible interest from rugby league fans, casual sports fans who dip into both league/union & die hard rugby union fans to see how that player goes, is he any good at league, will succeed etc which will naturally increase the eyeballs of whatever team this player signs with.

Maybe let’s agree to disagree.

A very good point there, it should be noted that Widnes pretty much doubled their crowds after they signed Jonathan Davies.

[Big Picture]

Grrr duplicate post due to system glitch. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Big Picture

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

A very good point there, it should be noted that Widnes pretty much doubled their crowds after they signed Jonathan Davies.

That's not true.

[unapologetic pedant]

20 minutes ago, Damien said:

That's not true.

And within 4 years offloaded him to Warrington in a fire sale.

 

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, Damien said:

That's not true.

You can see Widnes' crowds for the season when Davies signed for them here.  Though I might have overstated his impact, there's no denying that it was immensely positive.

3 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

And within 4 years offloaded him to Warrington in a fire sale.

This only shows that a convert's profile when he moves over is not a guaranteed predictor of how successful he'll be.  That said, Davies did have considerable success, why no one wanted to pay for lot for him when he left Widnes is something I don't understand.

[AB90]

8 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

That's precisely why I'm against it.

 

Couldn't agree more.

One more point, I know your sceptical of any lasting ‘permanent benefits’ and that signing of rival codes athletes are merely a ‘sign of short sighted profilacy’ however a short a term sugar rush can lead to long term permanent benefits.

For instance, the NRL TV deal contracts are due to expire at the end of 2027. Now currently those TV deals annually bring in $410m for the NRL. What if signing half a dozen or so All Blacks/Wallabies plus some Super Rugby talent brings in enough eye balls, media attention, interest, clicks, views etc that contributes to say 5% more to the next TV (on top of the increase the NRL will likely get will get without these signing/salary concessions). 5% doesn’t sound like much but that’s an additional $20m plus per year of income for the game. If these union players cost a combined total of $10m annually then that’s a net gain of $10m plus for the game.

What if these signings drives the TV deal up by 10%. Now where talking an additional $40m plus per year.

Would this scenario count as ‘lasting permanent impacts’ in your view? 

[Midlands hobo]

22 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

no, I have a functioning set of eyes

Really depends how you define athleticism of professional sports. Andy Farrell rubbish at union got found out. Burgess got found out Tompkins brother got found out. Eastmond had a steady Prem career never got to the top level. 

Are you going to argue Dwain chambers wasn't athletic enough? He got found out.

It depends what you train for. RU players are more about torque moving bodies out of rucks being able to clear a path. RL is more about being able to run through tackles make space ball handling.

How do you think say an NFL line backer would get on? I'd say they make RL players look like amateurs.

[Damien]

11 hours ago, Big Picture said:

You can see Widnes' crowds for the season when Davies signed for them here.  Though I might have overstated his impact, there's no denying that it was immensely positive.

This only shows that a convert's profile when he moves over is not a guaranteed predictor of how successful he'll be.  That said, Davies did have considerable success, why no one wanted to pay for lot for him when he left Widnes is something I don't understand.

I know what they were so as I said they didnt nearly double. Not even close.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Damien

[Damien]

2 hours ago, Midlands hobo said:

Really depends how you define athleticism of professional sports. Andy Farrell rubbish at union got found out. Burgess got found out Tompkins brother got found out. Eastmond had a steady Prem career never got to the top level. 

All got found out? All 4 played for England ffs.

[Midlands hobo]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

All got found out? All 4 played for England ffs.

Because the RFU bankrolled the transition and wanted them rushed in. What did they make between them about 25caps, between 4 players. So yes all found out. I get to RL fans 25 caps is alot but in RU 25 caps isn't even long enough for a short international career. For perspective Marcus Smith debuted for England in 2021 and already had 30 caps and still isn't even near being No1 in his position.

Farrell at international too small to be 12 too slow for 13 would have been ideal at back row but no instinct, good club player but not international.

Burgess rushed into england when even Stuart Lancaster didn't want him. Bath played him at flanker but England played him at 12. Again nobody knew where to play him needed another 4 year cycle to get near international standard.

Eastmond and Tompkins made such an impact they they were called up to cover twelvetrees and manu tulangi and never got called up again. Same with Henry Paul great career at Gloucester no international impact at all again single figure caps. Although decent at 7s.

Again. It depends what you train for, the only players of either code who easily transfer are wingers and fullbacks. The rest of the positions are too different, Brad Thorne and $BW being about the best exceptions.

[Click]

53 minutes ago, Midlands hobo said:

Because the RFU bankrolled the transition and wanted them rushed in. What did they make between them about 25caps, between 4 players. So yes all found out. I get to RL fans 25 caps is alot but in RU 25 caps isn't even long enough for a short international career. For perspective Marcus Smith debuted for England in 2021 and already had 30 caps and still isn't even near being No1 in his position.

Farrell at international too small to be 12 too slow for 13 would have been ideal at back row but no instinct, good club player but not international.

Burgess rushed into england when even Stuart Lancaster didn't want him. Bath played him at flanker but England played him at 12. Again nobody knew where to play him needed another 4 year cycle to get near international standard.

Eastmond and Tompkins made such an impact they they were called up to cover twelvetrees and manu tulangi and never got called up again. Same with Henry Paul great career at Gloucester no international impact at all again single figure caps. Although decent at 7s.

Again. It depends what you train for, the only players of either code who easily transfer are wingers and fullbacks. The rest of the positions are too different, Brad Thorne and $BW being about the best exceptions.

Sigh, not again ..

[arcticchris]

5 hours ago, Midlands hobo said:

Really depends how you define athleticism of professional sports. Andy Farrell rubbish at union got found out. Burgess got found out Tompkins brother got found out. Eastmond had a steady Prem career never got to the top level. 

Are you going to argue Dwain chambers wasn't athletic enough? He got found out.

It depends what you train for. RU players are more about torque moving bodies out of rucks being able to clear a path. RL is more about being able to run through tackles make space ball handling.

How do you think say an NFL line backer would get on? I'd say they make RL players look like amateurs.

Farrell had a car crash before he even played a game which ed up his back.

You can see from his coaching career that he has a deep understanding but lacked sufficient athleticism to be the superstar on the pitch that he would have been had he switched at 25.

 

Burgess was good and England were winning when he got taken off against Wales.

He was a convenient scapegoat and the row between club and country about where he should play was damaging to his chances.

 

Joel Tomkins - looked lost in his England appearances. Fair point there.

 

Eastmond did well domestically but was too small to be an international centre. Scrum half could have been possible had he been willing to work really hard on the non transferable skills.

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, Midlands hobo said:

Because the RFU bankrolled the transition and wanted them rushed in. What did they make between them about 25caps, between 4 players. So yes all found out. I get to RL fans 25 caps is alot but in RU 25 caps isn't even long enough for a short international career. For perspective Marcus Smith debuted for England in 2021 and already had 30 caps and still isn't even near being No1 in his position.

Farrell at international too small to be 12 too slow for 13 would have been ideal at back row but no instinct, good club player but not international.

Burgess rushed into england when even Stuart Lancaster didn't want him. Bath played him at flanker but England played him at 12. Again nobody knew where to play him needed another 4 year cycle to get near international standard.

Eastmond and Tompkins made such an impact they they were called up to cover twelvetrees and manu tulangi and never got called up again. Same with Henry Paul great career at Gloucester no international impact at all again single figure caps. Although decent at 7s.

Again. It depends what you train for, the only players of either code who easily transfer are wingers and fullbacks. The rest of the positions are too different, Brad Thorne and $BW being about the best exceptions.

There is plenty of subjective stuff in these discussions - both on what qualifies as success and the quality of the players in their respective codes positions.

So it is hard to say someone is objectively wrong.  But saying Andy Farrell was too small to be an international 12 is objectively wrong so you have managed it. 

[Sports Prophet]

I think we need to consider good money vs bad money.

Good money is getting immediate headlines and a ten year champion.

Bad money is headlines finishing as soon as they started because said player can’t crack first grade.

Rather than spending $1.4m a year on one player, I think there is a lot more to be said for paying NRL minimum wage to highly skilled, highly motivated and highly routined sportsman who haven’t made the transition from College Football to NFL. Bring 10-20 of them a year into camp for a 1+1+1 programme including playing opportunities in lower grades as well as work opportunities ideally suited to their subject of study during College.

Said players get 12 months to impress, 6-9 are retained for another 12 months and then 3-6 are retained for a final 3rd year if they haven’t been picked up by an NRL club already.

If anything, I feel the motivation of the man who has been given a second chance after being cut from his dreams will be far greater than a highly paid, high profile code swapper. Let alone how much better it would be for the dynamic amongst amy playing group where a potential untested player comes to the sport and club as one of its highest paid players.

[JM2010]

3 hours ago, Midlands hobo said:

Because the RFU bankrolled the transition and wanted them rushed in. What did they make between them about 25caps, between 4 players. So yes all found out. I get to RL fans 25 caps is alot but in RU 25 caps isn't even long enough for a short international career. For perspective Marcus Smith debuted for England in 2021 and already had 30 caps and still isn't even near being No1 in his position.

Farrell at international too small to be 12 too slow for 13 would have been ideal at back row but no instinct, good club player but not international.

Burgess rushed into england when even Stuart Lancaster didn't want him. Bath played him at flanker but England played him at 12. Again nobody knew where to play him needed another 4 year cycle to get near international standard.

Eastmond and Tompkins made such an impact they they were called up to cover twelvetrees and manu tulangi and never got called up again. Same with Henry Paul great career at Gloucester no international impact at all again single figure caps. Although decent at 7s.

Again. It depends what you train for, the only players of either code who easily transfer are wingers and fullbacks. The rest of the positions are too different, Brad Thorne and $BW being about the best exceptions.

How come you missed out Jason Robinson?

[unapologetic pedant]

10 hours ago, Big Picture said:

You can see Widnes' crowds for the season when Davies signed for them here.  Though I might have overstated his impact, there's no denying that it was immensely positive.  

The key players for Widnes were Tony Myler (when fit), Hulme brothers, Phil McKenzie, Kurt Sorensen and the other Kiwi forwards. 

Undue attention on Union converts precludes appreciation of our game, on and off the field. Maybe not so important in Oz, where League has the higher profile. But in the UK, the effects are damaging and enduring.

11 hours ago, Big Picture said:

This only shows that a convert's profile when he moves over is not a guaranteed predictor of how successful he'll be.  That said, Davies did have considerable success, why no one wanted to pay for lot for him when he left Widnes is something I don't understand.

Because the novelty had long-since worn off. As it always does.

[Dunbar]

11 hours ago, Big Picture said:

You can see Widnes' crowds for the season when Davies signed for them here.  Though I might have overstated his impact, there's no denying that it was immensely positive.

Yes, saying doubled is an overstatement of a 28% increase.

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Yes, saying doubled is an overstatement of a 28% increase.

It also ignores the titanic battle between Wigan and Widnes that season which also increased crowds, and notably saw a whopping 17,323 crowd for the final game which had become a league decider v Wigan. That was certainly nothing to do with Davies.

[Dunbar]

7 minutes ago, Damien said:

It also ignores the titanic battle between Wigan and Widnes that season which also increased crowds, and notably saw a whopping 17,323 crowd for the final game which had become a league decider v Wigan. That was certainly nothing to do with Davies.

Indeed. The next season, and the first full season of Davies playing for the then champions, went back to an average of 8,072 which was 21% above the season before Davies joined.

Funny how the game is on its knees now but a champion team full of cross code superstars averaged less than the 2023 Super League average. 

[unapologetic pedant]

8 hours ago, AB90 said:

One more point, I know your sceptical of any lasting ‘permanent benefits’ and that signing of rival codes athletes are merely a ‘sign of short sighted profilacy’ however a short a term sugar rush can lead to long term permanent benefits.

I could fill pages with lists of short-term sugar rushes that haven't led to long-term permanent benefits.

Give some examples where it's actually happened. 

[unapologetic pedant]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

Indeed. The next season, and the first full season of Davies playing for the then champions, went back to an average of 8,072 which was 21% above the season before Davies joined.

The inclination of RL fans to pay for the privilege of gawping in awe at allegedly famous RU players was always grossly overestimated. I went to a mid-80s game at Station Road v Bradford where national media camera crews had rocked up to see the debut of someone called Terry Holmes. Most of us had never heard of him.

Priority with RU signings was for jumped-up tin-pot club owners to perform their "cat got the cream" act at press conferences.

[unapologetic pedant]

33 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Funny how the game is on its knees now but a champion team full of cross code superstars averaged less than the 2023 Super League average. 

That Coco the Clown poster who's been endlessly prattling on about the game losing fans should take a look at late80s/early90s figures. The game was perceived to be on a high during that period, yet most of the comparable attendances are higher today. Substantially at Saints, Wire, and on Humberside. 

[ELBOWSEYE]

48 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

That Coco the Clown poster who's been endlessly prattling on about the game losing fans should take a look at late80s/early90s figures. The game was perceived to be on a high during that period, yet most of the comparable attendances are higher today. Substantially at Saints, Wire, and on Humberside. 

New stadium at these clubs had a big impact, Warrington would be around 6/7 if still at wilderspool, Saints also at knowsley road, FC at boulevard.

These factors far outweigh where the players come from.

But on big signing from Union or NRL make waves, I remember going to Widnes with quite a few wires (we weren't playing) to see Davies and the people who turned up at Warrington for Joey John's debut were from outside the playing clubs.

[unapologetic pedant]

9 hours ago, AB90 said:

Would this scenario count as ‘lasting permanent impacts’ in your view? 

What drives TV viewership for 8 NRL games per week over the course of a season is entrenched familiarity with the players, the clubs and the comp. One-off factors, like seeing how a RU signing might fare in his debut, may bump up the ratings for individual games, but I do not believe such factors play any part in the value of the deals.