England eye answers over 2024 Samoan test series

[BristolDevonCharlie]

6 hours ago, MattSantos said:

WI played England at cricket yesterday. All 4 umpires and the match ref were from the WI. Zimbabwe are playing Ireland, 80% are Zimbabwean and the other 20% is SAfrican. 

We have to be realistic and again, who cares!? I don't know how you managed to enjoy the Tr-Nations given your mind was elsewhere. Well done.

 

What an entitled and unwelcoming comeback. Did I offend your narrow worldview of RL somehow?!

I will have to do the stats tomorrow, but the majority of high level cricket pre-Covid, and emerging again now, was / is played with neutral umpires. 

And as all high level international Rugby Union and Association Football is played with neutral referees, I notice you did not pick those two sports as examples. 

[Click]

Just to add to my earlier post - I wasn't saying that we don't need to have neutral referee's for international matches, I 100% agree that if we are able to do that, then we definitely should do that. It is just a matter of training those referees in other countries up to an appropriate level. 

The RFL clearly don't have money for that with our referees going to a mix of FT and PT a few years ago, and the NRL would have no interest in that barring perhaps training the odd referee who came through that may be from NZ, rather than an effort made to recruit more referees.

Football and some other sports are able to have neutral referees as they have high quality competitions running in mulitple (or almost all in the case of football) countries. RL only has England and Australia. 

[BristolDevonCharlie]

2 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

“Looking forward to today’s game. I’m not much of a RL supporter, but this event sounded good so I decided to come along with a couple of my friends. The two teams look well matched and I hear the centre of the visiting team is one to keep my eye on. By the way, do you know if the referee comes from a neutral country or not?”

That conversation surely doesn’t happen.

Haha, no. You have to get them to a match first. They turn on the TV and they have no idea if the teams are well matched or any players names.

Already against international RL often is unhelpful commentators, poor crowds and lack of discernable (NRL style) pitch markings, etc   

Having a neutral ref for an international is a relatively small thing all sports which want to be taken seriously should do / do actually do. 

 

[Dave T]

20 minutes ago, BristolDevonCharlie said:

Haha, no. You have to get them to a match first. They turn on the TV and they have no idea if the teams are well matched or any players names.

Already against international RL often is unhelpful commentators, poor crowds and lack of discernable (NRL style) pitch markings, etc   

Having a neutral ref for an international is a relatively small thing all sports which want to be taken seriously should do / do actually do. 

 

I would always urge caution about jumping to conclusions about what puts people off based on our own preferences. It's where things like surveys can be really flawed. If you ask people what they want they'll give you a long list of things they think are important, but in reality, very many things do fall into the 'nice to have' category. 

We need to consider whether neutral refs and pitch markings are big enough factors that make people switch off. I'd be very surprised if they are anywhere near the top of any list of reasons for doing so. 

We have limited funds, we have to focus that where we get most value. 

Where we could have an issue is a 'death by a thousand cuts' kind of situation where things like this all grind people down so that people start to form tge opinion that we aren't a serious sport and not worth bothering with. 

This is broadly where I am with the international game, which has always been my favourite part of RL. 

[Sports Prophet]

I agree Dave. Of all the challenges international Rugby League has @BristolDevonCharlie, “neutral” referees is one of the least we should be concerned about or prioritising. In any case, it probably should be discussed to the length it has here, on a “neutral referee” thread.

As for Samoa touring. I am a little torn on the idea. The selfish part of me wants them here to play in a four nation Pacific event. The softer part of me knows how important regular good opposition for England is for the international game. What I don’t get is why are England so bothered about hosting another ###### poor three game series? Surely they would have been better off touring down here and joining a Pacific series.

Because we should all rest assured, we will be damning the RFL again in November 2024 for the same things they were damned for in 2023. Poor crowds, poor ticketing, poor scheduling, poor match day experience. The RFL are a poor organisation for which we have come to expect poor results from.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Sports Prophet

[Click]

2 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I agree Dave. Of all the challenges international Rugby League has @BristolDevonCharlie, “neutral” referees is one of the least we should be concerned about or prioritising. In any case, it probably should be discussed to the length it has here, on a “neutral referee” thread.

As for Samoa touring. I am a little torn on the idea. The selfish part of me wants them here to play in a four nation Pacific event. The softer part of me knows how important regular good opposition for England is for the international game. What I don’t get is why are England so bothered about hosting another ###### poor three game series? Surely they would have been better off touring down here and joining a Pacific series.

Because we should all rest assured, we will be damning the RFL again in November 2024 for the same things they were damned for in 2023. Poor crowds, poor ticketing, poor scheduling, poor match day experience. The RFL are a poor organisation for which we have come to expect poor results from.

1) If the Samoa tour (if it actually happens) is run like the Tonga tour, then for myself England are better off just going to Australia and joining the Pacific series

2) It is even assuming that the Pacific Series/NRL would even want England to join the competition for a year. 

I have to be honest from my perspective as a fan of Rugby League in London - I have only ever travelled to RL matches in the North for London Broncos, I haven't ever done it for England, and I am not sure I have any intention of doing it to be honest. If a match is in London/ the South then I would definitely attend it, as I have done for every London England match since I can recall, which includes England A when Great Britian was a thing.

Perhaps if I saw a match involving England on BBC in the North and thought - wow that is an amazing atmosphere, then I probably will never be interested in spending the time travelling north for it. I am more interested in potentially travelling to Wigan for the WCC, as I know there will be an atmosphere rather than any potential England games, which unfortunately due to a number of factors doesn't get anywhere near the kind of atmosphere the club game gets.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Click

[Hello]

9 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

“Looking forward to today’s game. I’m not much of a RL supporter, but this event sounded good so I decided to come along with a couple of my friends. The two teams look well matched and I hear the centre of the visiting team is one to keep my eye on. By the way, do you know if the referee comes from a neutral country or not?”

That conversation surely doesn’t happen.

That conversation doesn't happen because the person talking would assume the ref is from a neutral country 

[Hello]

8 hours ago, AB90 said:

It’s a very English thing caring about the where the ref is from

Yep, Argentina would love to play Brazil at football with a Brazilian ref, they'd have no problem at all.....

[Sports Prophet]

11 minutes ago, Hello said:

That conversation doesn't happen because the person talking would assume the ref is from a neutral country 

Oh well, if that’s their assumption, then they’ll be none the wiser and life goes on.

[Sports Prophet]

11 minutes ago, Hello said:

Yep, Argentina would love to play Brazil at football with a Brazilian ref, they'd have no problem at all.....

Maybe we can demonstrate a little more maturity over such a trivial matter than a bunch of emotional South Americans? Maybe. Maybe not.

[BristolDevonCharlie]

7 hours ago, Dave T said:

Where we could have an issue is a 'death by a thousand cuts' kind of situation where things like this all grind people down so that people start to form tge opinion that we aren't a serious sport and not worth bothering with. 

This paragraph is exactly my point. 

People where I am from have grown up being told RL is just a budget sport (/ a poor imitation of Union) for northerners. Poor crowds, lack of pitch markings and non-neutral refs, etc reinforce that stereotype. 

[iffleyox]

18 minutes ago, BristolDevonCharlie said:

This paragraph is exactly my point. 

People where I am from have grown up being told RL is just a budget sport (/ a poor imitation of Union) for northerners. Poor crowds, lack of pitch markings and non-neutral refs, etc reinforce that stereotype. 

This is very resonant. For those of us down here who actively seek out and choose RL, this is the backdrop. ‘Rugby on a budget of 20p and no scrums’ - it’s not fair, it’s not accurate, but it’s the shorthand for RL for far too many people.

trying to persuade the average person any different is like shouting into a wind tunnel in my sadly extensive experience. 

[The Future is League]

18 hours ago, MattSantos said:

Do people care? I certainly can't imagine a new fan being miffed because the ref is from X rather than Y.

 

Aussie's and Aussie apologists do because every time they lose they blame the ref.

We need neutral refs for internationals and if the Aussie's and Aussie apologists don't like it, tough.

[frank]

Be surprised if Samoa tour next year after the support Tonga received. Was a profit made on that tour?

[The Future is League]

18 minutes ago, frank said:

Be surprised if Samoa tour next year after the support Tonga received. Was a profit made on that tour?

IF they was guaranteed a fixed sum the RFL will have to make up the short fall.

[Bulls2487]

9 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I agree Dave. Of all the challenges international Rugby League has @BristolDevonCharlie, “neutral” referees is one of the least we should be concerned about or prioritising. In any case, it probably should be discussed to the length it has here, on a “neutral referee” thread.

As for Samoa touring. I am a little torn on the idea. The selfish part of me wants them here to play in a four nation Pacific event. The softer part of me knows how important regular good opposition for England is for the international game. What I don’t get is why are England so bothered about hosting another ###### poor three game series? Surely they would have been better off touring down here and joining a Pacific series.

Because we should all rest assured, we will be damning the RFL again in November 2024 for the same things they were damned for in 2023. Poor crowds, poor ticketing, poor scheduling, poor match day experience. The RFL are a poor organisation for which we have come to expect poor results from.

If England didn't host a series in 2024. It would mean 4 years without any games in England as NZ next due over on 2027 

You can't go that long without letting English fans see a game of International RL.

[crashmon]

41 minutes ago, Bulls2487 said:

If England didn't host a series in 2024. It would mean 4 years without any games in England as NZ next due over on 2027 

You can't go that long without letting English fans see a game of International RL.

So its impossible for England to set up a game vs say France? Who live very close to us?

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, BristolDevonCharlie said:

This paragraph is exactly my point. 

People where I am from have grown up being told RL is just a budget sport (/ a poor imitation of Union) for northerners. Poor crowds, lack of pitch markings and non-neutral refs, etc reinforce that stereotype. 

There is something about how it is presented though. Let's look at the specific things you mention...

Poor crowds - in what context? Go along to a big game in Wire, Saints, Leeds, Wigan, Hull, KR etc and you will see healthy vibrant noisy passionate crowds at RL events, as we will at Old Trafford and other games. Internationally we have some challenges, but it's not unusual for us to stage games that have between 25-50k in. 

Lack of pitch markings. We have pitch markings - every line that is needed is there. There is a fair argument that branding can be better, but I pretty much guarantee that only the most anal of RL fan is getting hung up on there not being numbers on the pitch in Castleford, but there is in Townsville. It's the same in another similar sport, search different comps across the world and they will use different branding - some use numbers, some don't. It just isn't something that a new or prospective fan will even think about.

Non-neutral refs - again, I can understand why this is important to people, I genuinely can, but to the general prospective fan, they may ask a question about it, but they soon move on. Just as they do with things like heritage players.

Like I say, I'm not being dismissive, as I do think there is a cumulative effect, but we do need to appreciate that quite often, things that you or I care about, most people couldn't care less about.

[Bulls2487]

1 hour ago, crashmon said:

So its impossible for England to set up a game vs say France? Who live very close to us?

I should of said meaningful international. 

Games against France aren't the right preparation for games against Samoa,Aus and NZ.

[crashmon]

1 hour ago, Bulls2487 said:

I should of said meaningful international. 

Games against France aren't the right preparation for games against Samoa,Aus and NZ.

What you said was
If England didn't host a series in 2024. It would mean 4 years without any games in England as NZ next due over on 2027 

Thats different than saying England playing menaningful internationals

England could easily tour down under every year to get menaingful internatonals, as that is where all the teams are which are on the same level or above England.....

But if your aim is to give England supporters the ability to watch England, that does not mean they have to come from SH

[MattSantos]

14 hours ago, BristolDevonCharlie said:

What an entitled and unwelcoming comeback. Did I offend your narrow worldview of RL somehow?!

I will have to do the stats tomorrow, but the majority of high level cricket pre-Covid, and emerging again now, was / is played with neutral umpires. 

And as all high level international Rugby Union and Association Football is played with neutral referees, I notice you did not pick those two sports as examples. 

I just don't care about where the ref is from and neither do normal people.

[BristolDevonCharlie]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

There is something about how it is presented though. Let's look at the specific things you mention...

Poor crowds - in what context? Go along to a big game in Wire, Saints, Leeds, Wigan, Hull, KR etc and you will see healthy vibrant noisy passionate crowds at RL events, as we will at Old Trafford and other games. Internationally we have some challenges, but it's not unusual for us to stage games that have between 25-50k in. 

Lack of pitch markings. We have pitch markings - every line that is needed is there. There is a fair argument that branding can be better, but I pretty much guarantee that only the most anal of RL fan is getting hung up on there not being numbers on the pitch in Castleford, but there is in Townsville. It's the same in another similar sport, search different comps across the world and they will use different branding - some use numbers, some don't. It just isn't something that a new or prospective fan will even think about.

Non-neutral refs - again, I can understand why this is important to people, I genuinely can, but to the general prospective fan, they may ask a question about it, but they soon move on. Just as they do with things like heritage players.

Like I say, I'm not being dismissive, as I do think there is a cumulative effect, but we do need to appreciate that quite often, things that you or I care about, most people couldn't care less about.

I am talking internationals Dave, as mentioned above, and on TV. You don't often go to a game - when you live 300 miles away - unless you are a fan already.

If you were a non-RL person turning in to the Huddersfield Tonga game... awful look. Without Sky these people cannot watch much Super League. 

Also I was referring to NRL-style pitch markings. 

Yes, most RL people couldn't care about these things. That is the whole point of me mentioning them.

As someone regularly fighting Rugby League's corner in a majority Union area, I am just reporting things I hear and see. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by BristolDevonCharlie

[Big Picture]

47 minutes ago, BristolDevonCharlie said:

I am talking internationals Dave, as mentioned above, and on TV. You don't often go to a game - when you live 300 miles away - unless you are a fan already.

If you were a non-RL person turning in to the Huddersfield Tonga game... awful look. Without Sky these people cannot watch much Super League. 

Also I was referring to NRL-style pitch markings. 

Yes, most RL people couldn't care about these things. That is the whole point of me mentioning them.

As someone regularly fighting Rugby League's corner in a majority Union area, I am just reporting things I hear and see. 

The heartland RL fans just don't get how small time the game's normal practice looks to outsiders and how it conforms to the negative stereotypes about the game, because it's what they've always known and accepted.  The fact that every other team sport always has uniform field/court/rink markings within the same competition so that's what the public will naturally expect doesn't seem to register with them.

Back in the first few years of SL there was a big effort to ensure correct field markings, at least to the extent possible within the limitations of existing English venues.

That can be seen in match videos from back then, but it didn't last and they went back to the same old, same old.  Likely the game's administrators decided after Sky cut the rights payments back due to low ratings it was a frill they didn't really need.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Big Picture

[JohnM]

57 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

I just don't care about where the ref is from and neither do normal people.

Agree.  My vote goes for a group of trained, qualified, experienced and monitored referees controlling the games in line with an agreed set of common rules that all players are briefed on.

[Click]

1 hour ago, BristolDevonCharlie said:

I am talking internationals Dave, as mentioned above, and on TV. You don't often go to a game - when you live 300 miles away - unless you are a fan already.

If you were a non-RL person turning in to the Huddersfield Tonga game... awful look. Without Sky these people cannot watch much Super League. 

Also I was referring to NRL-style pitch markings. 

Yes, most RL people couldn't care about these things. That is the whole point of me mentioning them.

As someone regularly fighting Rugby League's corner in a majority Union area, I am just reporting things I hear and see. 

I don't know why you keep bringing up pitch markings, if we were playing our England games on that pitch Toronto used then I would understand but the games Vs Tonga had RL pitch markings.