Archie Bruce

[RigbyLuger]

53 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

How do you police alcohol though? With drugs you can have a blanket zero tolerance policy but that becomes more problematic with alcohol.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything but it's a tricky problem to tackle.

I think it's more of trying to change the culture of some, not just players, about alcohol and abuse of it. I was going to say I'm not saying players should live like monks or anything, but one thing that came from Joe Westerman's time in the papers last year was a player drinking so close to the start of the season. It's their job!

[JohnM]

13 hours ago, sam4731 said:

How do you police alcohol though? With drugs you can have a blanket zero tolerance policy but that becomes more problematic with alcohol.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything but it's a tricky problem to tackle.

I'd suggest that player education by the sport and by clubs could/should play an important part, as must sanctions.  Looking for a differentiator between our sport and the other code, let's aim for a clean image, more Sinfield-like and less pis-artist like. Less tolerance of "boys will be boys" and more behaviour like "Men will be men".  These guys are meant to be highly-trained professional athletes aiming for what passes for stardom in our game. Alcohol and pain-killer abuse is not adequate preparation for life after retirement from playing. 

[Damien]

3 hours ago, JohnM said:

I'd suggest that player education by the sport and by clubs could/should play an important part, as must sanctions.  Looking for a differentiator between our sport and the other code, let's aim for a clean image, more Sinfield-like and less pis-artist like. Less tolerance of "boys will be boys" and more behaviour like "Men will be men".  These guys are meant to be highly-trained professional athletes aiming for what passes for stardom in our game. Alcohol and pain-killer abuse is not adequate preparation for life after retirement from playing. 

Player education already happens by both the sport and clubs.

[Griff]

9 minutes ago, Damien said:

Player education already happens by both the sport and clubs.

It does. Education Week was last week. I did four modules myself. But I've not seen one on alcohol abuse. Maybe there should be one.

[gingerjon]

50 minutes ago, Damien said:

Player education already happens by both the sport and clubs.

And how does that feed into the culture?

[Tommygilf]

41 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

And how does that feed into the culture?

Not well it seems.

[Damien]

23 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

And how does that feed into the culture?

I am not convinced that the culture and our players are any worse than other sections of society and their peers of the same age. If anything I would say its the opposite.

Their mates outside of Rugby are very likely to be going out every Friday and Saturday doing much the same or worse.

Those that went to University, and supposedly our better educated young people, are again very likely to be doing the same, or worse, and certainly far more frequently. Anyone that has been to University knows the culture when it comes to alcohol and drugs.

I certainly don't think there is any player out there that does not realise alcohol and drugs are bad for you. This message has been dummed into them from school. I mean we were told about all this in the 1990s at both school and Rugby and I know kids these days get these messages frequently. 

[Damien]

It's all very well people being all Daily Mail and expecting players to be monks for 52 weeks of the year but life isn't like that. I also think some aspects of this are being overegged somewhat.

People need to realise that being a RL player isn't all sunshine and roses. Quite the opposite for much of the time, it's hard and requires great commitment and sacrifice. For much of the year these lads can do little and miss all manner of events and outings, whether that is things with the family for the older ones or going out with your mates for the younger lads.

People that I know who played at the highest level pretty much had 2 guaranteed weeks all year in which they could go on holiday, usually at a time when it's difficult for anyone else you know to do so. If you play internationals you may not even get that. There may be weeks or months when they barely drink at all.

It's not like players are flat out doing drink and drugs and there are many fine role models out there.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Not well it seems.

You can only advise people.

It's their own decision whether or not to take the advice.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Griff said:

You can only advise people.

It's their own decision whether or not to take the advice.

Indeed, you can't legislate for stupidity.

You don't have to employ them though either, especially if they are part of a culture problem.

[RigbyLuger]

17 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Indeed, you can't legislate for stupidity.

You don't have to employ them though either, especially if they are part of a culture problem.

If they're good enough, or important enough, they'll keep being employed, and by one of your rivals.

[gingerjon]

Just now, RigbyLuger said:

If they're good enough, or important enough, they'll keep being employed, and by one of your rivals.

Exactly.

So the culture does not change.

[RigbyLuger]

9 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Exactly.

So the culture does not change.

And the biggest recent example is in football, where a player breaks rules they are told about, and will end up being rewarded with a move to a big club because he's got talent!

[Tommygilf]

15 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

If they're good enough, or important enough, they'll keep being employed, and by one of your rivals.

Which rather suggests the culture is problematic at more than one club.

[gingerjon]

6 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

And the biggest recent example is in football, where a player breaks rules they are told about, and will end up being rewarded with a move to a big club because he's got talent!

Which player are you thinking of here? (That's a genuine Q, just interested in the comparison).

[RigbyLuger]

2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Which player are you thinking of here? (That's a genuine Q, just interested in the comparison).

Ivan Toney. Banned for breaches of rules on betting, linked with a move to Arsenal.

Closer to home, how many chances has Zak Hardaker had after getting in trouble. All because he's good on the field (when he was available to his previous employers.)

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

Ivan Toney. Banned for breaches of rules on betting, linked with a move to Arsenal.

Closer to home, how many chances has Zak Hardaker had after getting in trouble. All because he's good on the field (when he was available to his previous employers.)

Thanks for that. The culture of betting in top level soccer is an interesting one. Probably not for this thread but you will not be surprised to learn that I Have Opinions on it.

[Griff]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Which rather suggests the culture is problematic at more than one club.

You'll never know how many.

But I doubt if it's all of them or even most of them.

[Tommygilf]

48 minutes ago, Griff said:

You'll never know how many.

But I doubt if it's all of them or even most of them.

It won't be the teams that are winning.

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

It won't be the teams that are winning.

That's just not true though. The top teams still drink and party hard.

Jesus traditionally the best team in the world in Australia have a pretty terrible culture when touring and consistently wipe the floor with everyone.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

That's just not true though. The top teams still drink and party hard.

Jesus traditionally the best team in the world in Australia have a pretty terrible culture when touring and consistently wipe the floor with everyone.

They do, but in fairness they seem to be out of season - and in Australia it seems to be an even broader problem, if everyone is up to it then nobody is at a disadvantage.

In England there's a difference between those who aren't. Those who are on it in teams where it is unacceptable don't stay long, and find themselves at clubs who are either more accepting, or even stricter in enforcement. 

[Damien]

8 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They do, but in fairness they seem to be out of season - and in Australia it seems to be an even broader problem, if everyone is up to it then nobody is at a disadvantage.

In England there's a difference between those who aren't. Those who are on it in teams where it is unacceptable don't stay long, and find themselves at clubs who are either more accepting, or even stricter in enforcement. 

That doesn't make sense. If everyone is doing it in Australia compared to here and it is so detrimental then why is the NRL on a completely different level to SL? 

Im perhaps talking more generally than you but culture goes far beyond one player. Teams in SL certainly go out and drink in season. Those fan pub landlords who open up the pub and trips away to Liverpoool and Manchester, where no one knows you, come in awful handy. Players are just careful about how they do it and where they go. I'm amazed people think players don't drink and shouldnt do anything all season, its just not a realistic expectation for young lads.

Sure sack the Zac Hardakers of this world, and I was bitterly disappointed when my club signed him, but there are many degrees in this and most players aren't like the Hardakers and Hocks of this world. Most of them are just young lads doing less than other lads their age.

[Tommygilf]

41 minutes ago, Damien said:

That doesn't make sense. If everyone is doing it in Australia compared to here and it is so detrimental then why is the NRL on a completely different level to SL? 

Im perhaps talking more generally than you but culture goes far beyond one player. Teams in SL certainly go out and drink in season. Those fan pub landlords who open up the pub and trips away to Liverpoool and Manchester, where no one knows you, come in awful handy. Players are just careful about how they do it and where they go. I'm amazed people think players don't drink and shouldnt do anything all season, its just not a realistic expectation for young lads.

Sure sack the Zac Hardakers of this world, and I was bitterly disappointed when my club signed him, but there are many degrees in this and most players aren't like the Hardakers and Hocks of this world. Most of them are just young lads doing less than other lads their age.

The NRL is on a completely different level. Its like comparing the premier league and the Papa Johns trophy in terms of choice of quality of athletes.

I don't have an issue with them drinking in season.

The teams/players where they have low discipline becomes obvious, and the players doing more than drinking gravitate towards them. That is neither a permanent state nor unsolvable.

[Wakefield Ram]

There are plenty of sports which don't have drinking cultures like athletics, swimming where margins between winning and losing can be tiny.  Any player who thinks excessive drinking doesn't affect his performance is kidding himself. 

Drugs are even more risky if taken long term. 

Young players coming into a team will be more open to influence from older team mates. 

Most pro or semi-pro players make a lot of sacrifices for not very much money.

Culture will always trump whatever education programmes and young players will be more easily influenced by older players.

But the clubs and coaches desire to win short term will trump player welfare or culture.

[Anita Bath]

7 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

There are plenty of sports which don't have drinking cultures like athletics, swimming where margins between winning and losing can be tiny.  Any player who thinks excessive drinking doesn't affect his performance is kidding himself. 

Drugs are even more risky if taken long term. 

Young players coming into a team will be more open to influence from older team mates. 

Most pro or semi-pro players make a lot of sacrifices for not very much money.

Culture will always trump whatever education programmes and young players will be more easily influenced by older players.

But the clubs and coaches desire to win short term will trump player welfare or culture.

Those sports make up for it with their drug problems.