The Reality of the IMG Grading System

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Worzel said:

If we believe that the best way to do that is move to a closed comp

Well you see that is where a lot differ, who is the 'we' by the way?

[Harry Stottle]

9 hours ago, Gooleboy said:

IMG will not spread domestic RL. They will get their closed shop and that will be it. Not a chance of any new clubs, (if any come on board) getting anywhere near the SL. If they are still around in five years tops I will be amazed.

It will not be in the interest of IMG to spread domestic RL, for one they will look at the history of the many start up professional clubs in the last 40/45 years and realise that albeit the sport is appreciated for what it is in parts of Northern England the enthusiasm wanes somewhat when that northern corridor is breached.

Also IMG are a business, and if they do last the 12 years of their agreement with the RFL, apart from the £450K per year I am led to believe they are charging for their input, they are also on a profit share basis - of an undisclosed %. It will not be in their interest to have clubs below SL eating into the top line of the RFL's turnover effectively reducing their cut.

I am with you 100% that the intention of IMG is to close the door on the transition of movement between SL and clubs from the lower divisions, they can't do it immediately as it was objected to from their original intentions. Hats of to them though they have cobbled together a system so weighted in favour of the majority of the incumbent SL clubs that they will get their 'Closed Shop' in the not to distant future.

What I don't understand is that the RFL should be acting on behalf of all their member clubs but they are seemingly putting all their eggs into the IMG basket, indeed to such an extent that one Club Chairman told me that Ralph Rimmer CEO at the time of the vote was actively campaigning with the lower division clubs suggesting to them that voting in the IMG proposal was the right way to go.

I have said it before, I see this system will be a reflection of the 'licensing years' before long, Championship clubs will feel the brunt of it, interest amongst the fans will eventually repeat itself to be the same as what happened in those 6 years '09 to '14 when they turned their backs, the authorities then saw sense and reintroduced a competitive system of rewarding and penalising clubs through P&R, interest and crowds picked up even in SL, I dread to think what would be the state of RL in country had that not been done.

[Roughyed Rats]

29 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I am with you 100% that the intention of IMG is to close the door on the transition of movement between SL and clubs from the lower divisions, they can't do it immediately as it was objected to from their original intentions. Hats of to them though they have cobbled together a system so weighted in favour of the majority of the incumbent SL clubs that they will get their 'Closed Shop' in the not to distant future.

Exactly what they did in basketball. Started off with grading then moved to a franchise closed shop model.  

[Worzel]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes you can play 'The buck stops here' card anyway you like, tell that to thousands of parents who have done everything humanly possible to teach and bring up their offspring in a correct and proper manner, but it doesn't always work does it?

Not the same thing at all, a team or organisation is a completely different context. One child is - at most - equivalent to one player in my analysis. Teams don't fail because in the disastrous way you describe because just one player doesn't meet expectations. Parents don't get to choose (recruit) their children, they deal with what they have for better or worse. But in a sports or organisational team setting long-term performance is the leaders' responsibility. Always.  

[Worzel]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Well you see that is where a lot differ, who is the 'we' by the way?

"We" is the elite level of the sport collectively, even if some individuals are less enthusiastic than others. This is what "we" have decided to do. 

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, Worzel said:

Not the same thing at all, a team or organisation is a completely different context. One child is - at most - equivalent to one player in my analysis. Teams don't fail because in the disastrous way you describe because just one player doesn't meet expectations. Parents don't get to choose (recruit) their children, they deal with what they have for better or worse. But in a sports or organisational team setting long-term performance is the leaders' responsibility. Always.  

Unless you have a coup, and that one as in an individual becomes many which when observing it at close quarters was what it seemed to be, anyway you stick with your interpretation and I will believe in what I observed. End off.

[Harry Stottle]

6 minutes ago, Worzel said:

"We" is the elite level of the sport collectively, even if some individuals are less enthusiastic than others. This is what "we" have decided to do. 

That has cleared that up then, the we's are the IMG followers, and those less enthusiastic are well ........... you tell me?

[Worzel]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

That has cleared that up then, the we's are the IMG followers, and those less enthusiastic are well ........... you tell me?

No, the "we" is the sports elite comp. The clubs, collectively. Your "IMG followers" jibe is unnecessary, I don't follow anyone I've my own mind, and just prefer this path to our past despite some of its limitations. This isn't some sort of religious belief! 

[Worzel]

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Unless you have a coup, and that one as in an individual becomes many which when observing it at close quarters was what it seemed to be, anyway you stick with your interpretation and I will believe in what I observed. End off.

Unless orchestrated by an outside party like the CIA, or another internal historical power base like the army, most coups are usually the leaders fault too!! End of 

[Harry Stottle]

20 minutes ago, Worzel said:

No, the "we" is the sports elite comp. The clubs, collectively. Your "IMG followers" jibe is unnecessary, I don't follow anyone I've my own mind, and just prefer this path to our past despite some of its limitations. This isn't some sort of religious belief! 

I think we all have our own mindset on this matter, mine is that this system apart for the 'sports elite comp' will result in very damaging consequences, and that doesn't just mean the clubs below SL but also their RL communities, if this system does as I fear it will do it will lead to apathy and eventual club closures it could cause more repercussions for the sport.

Edited April 15 by Harry Stottle

[Harry Stottle]

Anyway @Worzelwe are miles apart on our interpretations, but enjoyed the debate.

[dkw]

12 hours ago, Gooleboy said:

IMG will not spread domestic RL. They will get their closed shop and that will be it. Not a chance of any new clubs, (if any come on board) getting anywhere near the SL. If they are still around in five years tops I will be amazed.

As opposed to how open minded everyone is to expansion the last few decades, that's gone really well hasn't it, with the RFL actually putting things in place to stymie it where it looks like taking hold. And the fans eh, they're so welcoming and open to new clubs all the time.....

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, dkw said:

As opposed to how open minded everyone is to expansion the last few decades, that's gone really well hasn't it, with the RFL actually putting things in place to stymie it where it looks like taking hold. And the fans eh, they're so welcoming and open to new clubs all the time.....

We shouldn't let some loudmouths become the voice of the sport. The likes of Catalans have been embraced with huge travelling numbers and many large crowds when they travel here (admittedly with discounts in many cases) - in the main fans have been absolutely welcoming. 

They are many fans 2nd team. 

Similar with TWP, whilst there are many loud dissenters, we shouldn't see that as RL fans not being welcoming, many travelled there and many wanted them to do well. 

Edited April 15 by Dave T

[JohnM]

 Couldn't agree more and would add that It's one thing being a critic of the Reimagining project. It's another thing entirely wanting and hoping for  failure.

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

We shouldn't let some loudmouths become the voice of the sport. The likes of Catalans have been embraced with huge travelling numbers and many large crowds when they travel here (admittedly with discounts in many cases) - in the main fans have been absolutely welcoming. 

They are many fans 2nd team. 

Similar with TWP, whilst there are many loud dissenters, we shouldn't see that as RL fans not being welcoming, many travelled there and many wanted them to do well. 

Hi Dave, I don't know who that first sentence is directed at but presumably those you disagree with, A bit harsh wasn't it?

If you are bring critical of what I wrote about expansion, I don't know why you are quoting two overseas clubs I was specifically talking about RL expansion within the confines of the UK, the game doesn't travel well away from the heartlands it is simply not appreciated enough by the locals to take hold as has been proven in the past.

In relation to the two overseas teams you quote yes fans in this country have/did visit them in good numbers and I should imagine will continue to do so, but I strongly suggest not just for the game but as I did the opportunity to visit places I would most likely not have done but for the rugby, on that respect if Toulouse do go up under this system, do you think that will retract from the numbers who visit Catalan or double the numbers visiting France?

As for the discounts some clubs apply when Catalan visit them I should imagine that you are referring to the recent game at the HJ were Warrington got good numbers in by offering entrance for £5, nothing wrong with that at all and it could entice some back willing to pay the full fare. Do you reckon the club could extend that to two heavily discounted games should Toulouse gain SL status, or would it make season ticket holders think twice about paying up front?

[dkw]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

We shouldn't let some loudmouths become the voice of the sport. The likes of Catalans have been embraced with huge travelling numbers and many large crowds when they travel here (admittedly with discounts in many cases) - in the main fans have been absolutely welcoming. 

They are many fans 2nd team. 

Similar with TWP, whilst there are many loud dissenters, we shouldn't see that as RL fans not being welcoming, many travelled there and many wanted them to do well. 

I was thinking more the RFL making Toulouse and Catalans pay for opposition teams travelling, taking the easy way out with Cornwall and the cup competition to not upset established clubs etc. 

[Dave T]

39 minutes ago, dkw said:

I was thinking more the RFL making Toulouse and Catalans pay for opposition teams travelling, taking the easy way out with Cornwall and the cup competition to not upset established clubs etc. 

I've no issues with making overseas clubs pay (although this method is clumsy) but I was addressing your point that fans are not friendly to expansion efforts. I don't find teh main are like that at all tbh mate. 

[Dave T]

50 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi Dave, I don't know who that first sentence is directed at but presumably those you disagree with, A bit harsh wasn't it?

If you are bring critical of what I wrote about expansion, I don't know why you are quoting two overseas clubs I was specifically talking about RL expansion within the confines of the UK, the game doesn't travel well away from the heartlands it is simply not appreciated enough by the locals to take hold as has been proven in the past.

In relation to the two overseas teams you quote yes fans in this country have/did visit them in good numbers and I should imagine will continue to do so, but I strongly suggest not just for the game but as I did the opportunity to visit places I would most likely not have done but for the rugby, on that respect if Toulouse do go up under this system, do you think that will retract from the numbers who visit Catalan or double the numbers visiting France?

As for the discounts some clubs apply when Catalan visit them I should imagine that you are referring to the recent game at the HJ were Warrington got good numbers in by offering entrance for £5, nothing wrong with that at all and it could entice some back willing to pay the full fare. Do you reckon the club could extend that to two heavily discounted games should Toulouse gain SL status, or would it make season ticket holders think twice about paying up front?

My point wasn't related to you or anyone specifically, it was that we shouldn't give undue prominence to viewpoints because they can be noisy. The noisiest crowd aren't always the largest. Imo Catalans have been received warmly, as have other expansion clubs, despite noisy criticism. 

It's easy to end up in echo chambers and believe a certain view, when it is more useful to study the data and see that viewing figs, crowds and travelling numbers can be high for them. 

On the Season ticket point, again, I don't think in reality a large portion of people are that bothered by this kind of thing. Many season ticket holders get good value anyway, and these concessions are for the lowest quality stand. But even then plenty of season ticket holders take advantage of it by bringing new fans along. 

Someay grumble, but the evidence appears to be there that the fans appreciate the good crowd, kids present and better atmosphere. 

[JohnM]

On 15/04/2024 at 09:37, Roughyed Rats said:

Exactly what they did in basketball. Started off with grading then moved to a franchise closed shop model.  

...and look what happened to baseball. We don't want any of that there here.

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/rankings/

Edited April 16 by JohnM

[Harry Stottle]

57 minutes ago, JohnM said:

...and look what happeebned to baseball. We don't want any of that there here.

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/rankings/

Be real John, MLB has a bigger attendance each year than the British Isles has population, awaits for you to tell me that is all down to IMG, anyway I have asked this question before but never recieved an answer so if you would please help that would be wonderful.

Q. Will these methods that are being introduced by IMG improve the spectacle on the field? 

Isn't that what improves attendances, only today I saw a report from Jon Wilkin stating that it is a flaw in IMG's methods that some clubs are forgoing improving their teams in preference to gaining points for the spreadsheet, now in a sporting context and environment can that be right?

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Be real John, MLB has a bigger attendance each year than the British Isles has population, awaits for you to tell me that is all down to IMG, anyway I have asked this question before but never recieved an answer so if you would please help that would be wonderful.

Q. Will these methods that are being introduced by IMG improve the spectacle on the field? 

Isn't that what improves attendances, only today I saw a report from Jon Wilkin stating that it is a flaw in IMG's methods that some clubs are forgoing improving their teams in preference to gaining points for the spreadsheet, now in a sporting context and environment can that be right?

It's always the struggling teams who will claim this isn't it? And tbh, it looks like it can only really be the case for Cas, and that smacks of excuses. The London one is a unique situation that won't ever happen again under this system.

[iffleyox]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

only today I saw a report from Jon Wilkin stating that it is a flaw in IMG's methods that some clubs are forgoing improving their teams in preference to gaining points for the spreadsheet, now in a sporting context and environment can that be right?

Can't we file that under 'dog bites man' though? Or alternatively 'system does what it's designed to do'?

How many of these spreadsheet points have to be done repeatedly?*

Maybe some clubs *should* prioritise off-field at the expense of their teams in the short term?

Ironic, when chronic short termism and spending on the team on the pitch at the expense of everything else is the besetting problem that has got us to here...

*actually it's just occurred to me that in the case of a lash up in lieu of doing it properly then those would, but that's up to the individual club ideally not to do it. @Dave T said it much more succinctly while I was writing!

Edited April 16 by iffleyox

[Taffy Tiger]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Be real John, MLB has a bigger attendance each year than the British Isles has population, awaits for you to tell me that is all down to IMG, anyway I have asked this question before but never recieved an answer so if you would please help that would be wonderful.

Q. Will these methods that are being introduced by IMG improve the spectacle on the field? 

Isn't that what improves attendances, only today I saw a report from Jon Wilkin stating that it is a flaw in IMG's methods that some clubs are forgoing improving their teams in preference to gaining points for the spreadsheet, now in a sporting context and environment can that be right?

Hi Harry , speaking for Cas , I think they will 'improve the spectacle' on the field , but not straight away.

Cas have said we have a 3 year plan . With the way IMG criteria works we have to prioritise off the field , at least for this season.

Once the ground is temporarily upgraded to meet IMG criteria , we can then concentrate on improving the team and can invest a little more in this area until the ground is permanently upgaded.

When the ground is fully upgraded any money from our investors can then go straight into strengthening the squad . 

In theory , when all of the above is in place , we should be able to secure our place in SL for the long term future , with a solid foundation off the field as well as on it. 

Edited April 16 by Taffy Tiger

[DEANO]

1 hour ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Hi Harry , speaking for Cas , I think they will 'improve the spectacle' on the field , but not straight away.

Cas have said we have a 3 year plan . With the way IMG criteria works we have to prioritise off the field , at least for this season.

Once the ground is temporarily upgraded to meet IMG criteria , we can then concentrate on improving the team and can invest a little more in this area until the ground is permanently upgaded.

When the ground is fully upgraded any money from our investors can then go straight into strengthening the squad . 

In theory , when all of the above is in place , we should be able to secure our place in SL for the long term future , with a solid foundation off the field as well as on it. 

Is this the same criteria sl demanded when sky bought the game

[JohnM]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

Q. Will these methods that are being introduced by IMG improve the spectacle on the field? 

Yes. I've explained how and why in previous posts. 

Q.  Do you want the Reimagining project to work or to fail?

Edited April 16 by JohnM