Ticketing for big events

[Maximus Decimus]

With the Oasis mini-fiasco last week, there has been a lot of scrutiny over the process of inflating ticket prices to meet demand. As somebody who was there last weekend, only to be faced with £300 minimum for a ticket in the Gods, it was highly frustrating. This has rightly been criticised, but it did make me think, what is actually the best way to do it?

It's always been an issue, but there seems to have been a real rise in both demand to watch live events, and technology making it easier for people to get tickets with little effort. You end up with a situation where I've heard it estimated that 14 million people were trying to get a little over a million tickets. 

The first issue is pricing. Many people lament the fact that tickets used to be far cheaper and how for instance Oasis tickets were £22.50 for Knebworth (equivalent to £45 today). I get this, but I also don't think there are many other areas where people would be expected to artificially lower prices in this way. Oasis could probably have sold out if they'd have made every ticket £250. It's an issue of supply and demand. There are subtle factors at play of course: reputation is a big one for a band like Oasis, as well as what it does to the atmosphere if you price out working people (this is a criticism that has been leveled at the Superbowl for instance). For sporting clubs, there is also the issue of longevity, and trying to make sure you create the next generation of fan. Overall though, as much as I'd love tickets to be cheaper, I don't think it's correct for tickets to be kept artificially low because they always have been this price.

The bigger issue for me is the distribution question. There are essentially 4 main ways I can think of: first come first serve, a ballot system or a free market system.

1) First come, first serve - this is of course traditionally the way tickets were sold. The idea of only having physical tickets and making people queue does seem appealing. After all, you have to be really committed, and you can camp out if you're a desperate mega fan. The electronic version we saw last Saturday is a nightmare. You can't get there earlier, the server can't cope and it's basically luck. They opened at 8am, my brother in law was 8,000 in the queue, I was 100,000 and my wife was 250,000. 

2) Ballot system - this is seen as the fairest system and was utilised in the Olympics. Basically you enter the ballot and get allocated if you win. Something about this feels deeply unsatisfying to me. In the Oasis example, 13 million lose out with no legal way of getting around it. You're only likely to get 2 tickets, so the chances of going with friends is greatly reduced etc.

3) Free market - People get tickets usually through first come, first serve and then are free to resell them at whatever price they like. This has obvious problems like touting and it makes me think of a Simpsons sketch where the guy at the front of the queue turns up and says '20,000 tickets.' I suspect this is a very unpopular way, but I don't actually mind it that much. I follow quite a lot of American sport, and with regards to the NFL for instance if you want to go to any game this weekend, you can with a minimum of fuss. You will pay depending on the profile of the game, but after a couple of weeks you'll be able to get a ticket to a game for face value. Similarly, I was watching the tennis with my wife at the US Open and if we'd wanted to go the semi-final we could got about $200 a ticket. I like having that option. 

I compare this to the situation with the PL where I wanted to get Everton tickets for my son a while back and it was ridiculously hard and required signing up for paid memberships etc with no guarantee of getting one. Legally, they can only resell at face value so there is little incentive for people to sell them on.

 

I think a mixture of them is the best way. The way tickets are distributed initially might be better if it is a ballot system, but then some form of an official ticket reselling system for those who want to have an option to buy. This way people get an equal chance to get tickets, but for those willing to pay to go they can. With the official reselling system, there could even be limits on how often you can resell if this was feasible. 

 

 

[Gerrumonside ref]

20 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

With the Oasis mini-fiasco last week, there has been a lot of scrutiny over the process of inflating ticket prices to meet demand. As somebody who was there last weekend, only to be faced with £300 minimum for a ticket in the Gods, it was highly frustrating. This has rightly been criticised, but it did make me think, what is actually the best way to do it?

It's always been an issue, but there seems to have been a real rise in both demand to watch live events, and technology making it easier for people to get tickets with little effort. You end up with a situation where I've heard it estimated that 14 million people were trying to get a little over a million tickets. 

The first issue is pricing. Many people lament the fact that tickets used to be far cheaper and how for instance Oasis tickets were £22.50 for Knebworth (equivalent to £45 today). I get this, but I also don't think there are many other areas where people would be expected to artificially lower prices in this way. Oasis could probably have sold out if they'd have made every ticket £250. It's an issue of supply and demand. There are subtle factors at play of course: reputation is a big one for a band like Oasis, as well as what it does to the atmosphere if you price out working people (this is a criticism that has been leveled at the Superbowl for instance). For sporting clubs, there is also the issue of longevity, and trying to make sure you create the next generation of fan. Overall though, as much as I'd love tickets to be cheaper, I don't think it's correct for tickets to be kept artificially low because they always have been this price.

The bigger issue for me is the distribution question. There are essentially 4 main ways I can think of: first come first serve, a ballot system or a free market system.

1) First come, first serve - this is of course traditionally the way tickets were sold. The idea of only having physical tickets and making people queue does seem appealing. After all, you have to be really committed, and you can camp out if you're a desperate mega fan. The electronic version we saw last Saturday is a nightmare. You can't get there earlier, the server can't cope and it's basically luck. They opened at 8am, my brother in law was 8,000 in the queue, I was 100,000 and my wife was 250,000. 

2) Ballot system - this is seen as the fairest system and was utilised in the Olympics. Basically you enter the ballot and get allocated if you win. Something about this feels deeply unsatisfying to me. In the Oasis example, 13 million lose out with no legal way of getting around it. You're only likely to get 2 tickets, so the chances of going with friends is greatly reduced etc.

3) Free market - People get tickets usually through first come, first serve and then are free to resell them at whatever price they like. This has obvious problems like touting and it makes me think of a Simpsons sketch where the guy at the front of the queue turns up and says '20,000 tickets.' I suspect this is a very unpopular way, but I don't actually mind it that much. I follow quite a lot of American sport, and with regards to the NFL for instance if you want to go to any game this weekend, you can with a minimum of fuss. You will pay depending on the profile of the game, but after a couple of weeks you'll be able to get a ticket to a game for face value. Similarly, I was watching the tennis with my wife at the US Open and if we'd wanted to go the semi-final we could got about $200 a ticket. I like having that option. 

I compare this to the situation with the PL where I wanted to get Everton tickets for my son a while back and it was ridiculously hard and required signing up for paid memberships etc with no guarantee of getting one. Legally, they can only resell at face value so there is little incentive for people to sell them on.

 

I think a mixture of them is the best way. The way tickets are distributed initially might be better if it is a ballot system, but then some form of an official ticket reselling system for those who want to have an option to buy. This way people get an equal chance to get tickets, but for those willing to pay to go they can. With the official reselling system, there could even be limits on how often you can resell if this was feasible. 

 

 

Discreet brag warning:

I saw Oasis on their Definitely Maybe tour at the Sheffield Uni Octagon just after the release of Shakermaker.  It wasn’t easy to score tickets then but we managed to get them and off we went.  I saw a lot of the big up and coming bands like them, Suede, Radiohead, Pulp etc at small venues at the time and they are my most memorable gigs tbh.  I also saw Oasis and later Portishead at Glastonbury ‘95.

My main advice would be to fight FOMO and avoid these mega gig ripoffs.  I had no interest in seeing Oasis again after catching them twice and my experience of Heaton Park in particular is the sound isn’t great (saw the Stone Roses there on their comeback reunion) and also that Liam Gallagher’s voice is on the wane anyway as a live act.

The bands that need your money and support are playing smaller gigs.  Plus if you missed it all first time around you missed it, no point trying to catch up now and for £300 you could buy a good ticket for a number of music festivals.

[graveyard johnny]

like everything in life these days - its ten times more difficult than when things were simple - have queued loads of times outside record shops and other outlets for tickets and even queued for big RL matches in the past - if your dedicated you will do this or someone will do it for you - touts are #### and tickets should have a registered name on them that can be changed if bought as gifts or someone else goes - how this would work I  don't know - which is why the touts and resellers seem unsortable 

[The Masked Poster]

Unfortunately, the days when you got an actual ticket and either had to queue for it in person or at least ring Janet up at the box office are gone. That was my preference.

But there's a generation of people raised on paying £100 to see ants on stage a mile in the distance and they don't know any other way. What's more, judging by what I see, they actually like it. 

I also think Oasis are copping a lot of unfair flack for this. While the situation is rubbish and fans have definitely been ripped off, they didn't create the situation, it's just the way of the world now.

[CanaBull]

If there is a face value for a ticket then every financial commitment has been covered in that value.  Charging more is gouging, profiteering, call it whatever you want.  If it is right to do that for some, then we should be allowed to charge more for our labour when work gets busy. 
 

I don’t agree with reselling above face value but don’t think much can be done with it now, the genie is out of the bottle with the wrong people/corporations getting involved and smelling a quick buck. 
 

To me this is one addition to the societal unrest, a lack of access to cultural events plays a part in that for the poorer in society. 
 

It’s a difficult one, I’d prefer having to go somewhere to get a ticket, that to me would carry some commitment to going than buying to sell, limit the number of resells and the percentage increase you can resell for, say 2-3%. That would, in theory at least, keep the costs somewhere in the realm of the initial cost with more access to more people. 

[The Masked Poster]

Oh and I got excess tickets for one of the Sex Pistols gigs coming up soon. I sold them both for face value what I paid. I don't personally believe in ripping off fellow music fans. 

[Maximus Decimus]

5 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

Unfortunately, the days when you got an actual ticket and either had to queue for it in person or at least ring Janet up at the box office are gone. That was my preference.

But there's a generation of people raised on paying £100 to see ants on stage a mile in the distance and they don't know any other way. What's more, judging by what I see, they actually like it. 

I also think Oasis are copping a lot of unfair flack for this. While the situation is rubbish and fans have definitely been ripped off, they didn't create the situation, it's just the way of the world now.

My brother-in-law who was a big Oasis fan made this point.

The point I made was that I've been to a SOO game in Australia, but that from an entertainment perspective I've been to much better Widnes games. It wasn't a dud either, it was a decider where Queensland scored in the last minute to win their first series in a while. However, I was behind the posts and I was far away and the atmosphere wasn't great with it being in a bowl in Melbourne.

When all's said and done though, what will I value more? My one and only SOO Origin game in front of over 50,000 or a number of thrilling Widnes games where I can't quite remember now who we were playing?

That's how I feel about the Oasis gigs. I don't care that they're miles away and I watching them on a screen, it's Oasis reforming. That's essentially what I'd be paying for.

[Futtocks]

5 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

I also think Oasis are copping a lot of unfair flack for this. While the situation is rubbish and fans have definitely been ripped off, they didn't create the situation, it's just the way of the world now.

Surge pricing can be opted out of by the artistes involved.

One of the Gallagher brothers (Noel, I think) has looming alimony payments.

They didn't opt out of surge pricing.

[Maximus Decimus]

4 minutes ago, Futtocks said:

Surge pricing can be opted out of by the artistes involved.

One of the Gallagher brothers (Noel, I think) has looming alimony payments.

They didn't opt out of surge pricing.

I'm pretty sure they've said that they didn't know about it.

A lot of people were annoyed about the surge pricing and I get it, but I've since thought a bit about this.

The vast majority of people who were offered a surge price ticket only got offered one because other people rejected them. Had there been no surge prices, they wouldn't have even got to that point because they'd have been sold out.

It's not to defend the process, because it's a cash grab, but I think most people who had the option were under the illusion that they could've got tickets for face value but were ripped off.

I was 150,000th in the queue and could've bought surge tickets. The maths is pretty simple. With what 90,000 seats on offer, I wouldn't have got a sniff.

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I'm pretty sure they've said that they didn't know about it.

A lot of people were annoyed about the surge pricing and I get it, but I've since thought a bit about this.

The vast majority of people who were offered a surge price ticket only got offered one because other people rejected them. Had there been no surge prices, they wouldn't have even got to that point because they'd have been sold out.

It's not to defend the process, because it's a cash grab, but I think most people who had the option were under the illusion that they could've got tickets for face value but were ripped off.

I was 150,000th in the queue and could've bought surge tickets. The maths is pretty simple. With what 90,000 seats on offer, I wouldn't have got a sniff.

It's the twofold dishonesty of saying *you*, you peasant, can't possibly consider selling your ticket for more than face value.

However, we, your betters, can tell you that a ticket will be an eye watering £150 but that after you've degraded yourself multiple times over, it is now only available at £400. An algorithm we didn't tell you about, nor can you question, is the reason for this.

And you have five minutes to decide.

I not only judge harshly anyone who does this(*) but also anyone who defends it.

(* = I did see someone going, "Oh, so it's fine when the Orange Tree in Richmond does it but not fine when working class northerners do. To which the only response is: when the Orange Tree does it, it essentially raises the price by £10 and they tell you well in advance that that's their model - you take a punt on a play before the reviews in versus buying a ticket knowing you should see something decent that now other people want to see. It's a bit different to tripling an already expensive ticket without warning.)

[The Masked Poster]

1 hour ago, Futtocks said:

Surge pricing can be opted out of by the artistes involved.

One of the Gallagher brothers (Noel, I think) has looming alimony payments.

They didn't opt out of surge pricing.

I doubt even without these gigs, the Gallaghers would have been short of a few quid - and certainly not Noel.  I think that's a bit of a red herring. They are clearly going to profit from this -big time - but I don't think that was the main driver. 

[The Masked Poster]

1 hour ago, Maximus Decimus said:

My brother-in-law who was a big Oasis fan made this point.

The point I made was that I've been to a SOO game in Australia, but that from an entertainment perspective I've been to much better Widnes games. It wasn't a dud either, it was a decider where Queensland scored in the last minute to win their first series in a while. However, I was behind the posts and I was far away and the atmosphere wasn't great with it being in a bowl in Melbourne.

When all's said and done though, what will I value more? My one and only SOO Origin game in front of over 50,000 or a number of thrilling Widnes games where I can't quite remember now who we were playing?

That's how I feel about the Oasis gigs. I don't care that they're miles away and I watching them on a screen, it's Oasis reforming. That's essentially what I'd be paying for.

I totally understand that. It's kind of why I'm going to the Pistols gig. It's not the band in 1977 and not even the full line up....but I'll take 3/4 of it. 

[Maximus Decimus]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

It's the twofold dishonesty of saying *you*, you peasant, can't possibly consider selling your ticket for more than face value.

However, we, your betters, can tell you that a ticket will be an eye watering £150 but that after you've degraded yourself multiple times over, it is now only available at £400. An algorithm we didn't tell you about, nor can you question, is the reason for this.

And you have five minutes to decide.

I not only judge harshly anyone who does this(*) but also anyone who defends it.

(* = I did see someone going, "Oh, so it's fine when the Orange Tree in Richmond does it but not fine when working class northerners do. To which the only response is: when the Orange Tree does it, it essentially raises the price by £10 and they tell you well in advance that that's their model - you take a punt on a play before the reviews in versus buying a ticket knowing you should see something decent that now other people want to see. It's a bit different to tripling an already expensive ticket without warning.)

Don't misread what I'm saying, I went through it and I was very frustrated with the whole process. I also thought it was very hypocritical when they had it made it very clear about resellable tickets being cancelled.

My point was only that had they not done this, it would have very obviously sold out way before I got a chance to get a ticket. There was definitely an element of prolonging the agony by it not selling out within an hour and falsely getting people's hopes up.

I've also heard complaints from many people, including those I work with, who went and paid over the odds. They don't seem to realise that they almost certainly wouldn't have tickets full stop if it hadn't been dynamic pricing.

That's unless of course it was very widespread. I still haven't seen anything about what percentage of tickets was affected. When my brother in law got through in 9000th place, they weren't doing it. He just couldn't select any tickets.

Edit: I've seen it noted as being 10-15% but I'm not sure how reliable the source is.

Edited September 8 by Maximus Decimus

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

I did my fair share of things like Oasis and other giant concerts when I was younger 

I now go to new bands in smaller venues like Portland Arms in Cambridge and Bedford Corn exchange.....new bands genuinely want to perform and have that new band enthusiasm rather than just plug through their back catalogue like old rockers

The tickets are never more than £20 and you are as close or far back as you want from the band 

There are some fantastic indie bands out there .....**** old codgers like Oasis and Coldplay 

I'd advise all young people too ....avoid the ridiculously priced 'big acts' at Wembley etc and go and see a local musician or a touring band at smaller music venues ...even tribute acts....at least they probably enjoy playing the songs that the original artists are long since sick of playing 

Edited September 16 by Bedfordshire Bronco