Kangaroos Selection - 2024 including Pong-gate

[Sports Prophet]

On 29/09/2024 at 20:07, Dunbar said:

So, joining in properly on the context of the discussion.  It is an interesting question and one that has come about only because Origin has been elevated above international rugby in the SH (no blame there, there is plenty of reasons why).

So players now ask themselves how they can play Origin first and foremost and then make an international decision on the back of that.

So there are three options really.

1.  Keep it as it is, you play Origin and play for Australia or any country other than another tier 1 (England or New Zealand).

2. Open it up completely allow any international player to play Origin if they are otherwise eligible.

3. Close it down to just players who are eligible for and commit to playing for the Kangaroos.  Make it a genuine Kangaroo trial series.

Each of the latter two would have their benefits and risks and would be interesting to see how they would play through over time.

I would be very interested to hear from the Australians on here how option 2 would be received.  A player playing Origin and then going on to represent England or New Zealand later in the season would surely water down the state vs state rivalry that has been so important to Origin becoming the institution it is now.

I am hugely against option 2 and unimpressed by option 1, however I understand on personal preferences and a business case why option 1 has been implemented.

What I want from SOO is the best Australians to be playing (I have no solution to mind what happens when other interstate players become good enough). Others call for the best players to be playing, which I think undermines the concept.

What the likes of PVL and Gus Gould have called for recently is a reduction to club fixtures (maybe 19 rounds in a 20 team comp) and fix the “SOO problem” as PVL put it, by opening up a mid season rep series. SOO to be played on consecutive weekends alongside test matches featuring other Pacific nations and maybe England to be organised by the NRL to provide 3/4 weeks of the highest quality RL content for broadcasters who would be against a reduction in NRL fixtures on its own.

It’s exciting to think about and I personally think with the current administration, the NRL sees the international game as commercially underperforming, but with a high potential. Which is good, because in my opinion only the NRL have the capabilities for that opportunity to be realised.

[StandOffHalf]

Someone like Taumalolo has been in Queensland since he was a boy and would have cherished being a Maroon. Radley is NSW through and through.

I think if they qualify through the basic requirements that it shouldn't matter what country they play for.

[Dunbar]

24 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

Someone like Taumalolo has been in Queensland since he was a boy and would have cherished being a Maroon. Radley is NSW through and through.

I think if they qualify through the basic requirements that it shouldn't matter what country they play for.

Taumalolo has represented Australian Schoolboys, New Zealand and Tonga.  I am ok with players playing for anyone they are eligible for but if we are not careful representative Rugby League can start to look like All Stars games with no actual rivalry, just let's have some good players play each other.

[Dunbar]

8 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I am hugely against option 2 and unimpressed by option 1, however I understand on personal preferences and a business case why option 1 has been implemented.

What I want from SOO is the best Australians to be playing (I have no solution to mind what happens when other interstate players become good enough). Others call for the best players to be playing, which I think undermines the concept.

What the likes of PVL and Gus Gould have called for recently is a reduction to club fixtures (maybe 19 rounds in a 20 team comp) and fix the “SOO problem” as PVL put it, by opening up a mid season rep series. SOO to be played on consecutive weekends alongside test matches featuring other Pacific nations and maybe England to be organised by the NRL to provide 3/4 weeks of the highest quality RL content for broadcasters who would be against a reduction in NRL fixtures on its own.

It’s exciting to think about and I personally think with the current administration, the NRL sees the international game as commercially underperforming, but with a high potential. Which is good, because in my opinion only the NRL have the capabilities for that opportunity to be realised.

The problem with this is that the 'main event' is State of Origin and the internationals are the back up cast.

Look, I have no problem with State of Origin (I love the games) but if the best players are picking Origin and then the left overs are available for the PI Nations to play tests it is not the best solution.

And the Kangaroos need to be a brand that the Aussies get behind at every level of the game and if in a representative window the states are playing then that isn't going to happen.

Edited October 3 by Dunbar

[Damien]

34 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

The problem with this is that the 'main event' is State of Origin and the internationals are the back up cast.

Look, I have no problem with State of Origin (I love the games) but if the best players are picking Origin and then the left overs are available for the PI Nations to play tests it is not the best solution.

And the Kangaroos need to be a brand that the Aussies get behind at every level of the game and if in a representative window the states are playing then that isn't going to happen.

And this is why the mid season internationals were scrapped but in reverse. Players were starting to pick to play for their countries and this would have accelerated if we progressed to 3 mid season internationals, as previous NRL leaders had planned. Pretty hard to sell SOO as the elite when some of the best players are choosing to play internationals instead so lets just scrap them and take away that choice. 

[StandOffHalf]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

Taumalolo has represented Australian Schoolboys, New Zealand and Tonga.  I am ok with players playing for anyone they are eligible for but if we are not careful representative Rugby League can start to look like All Stars games with no actual rivalry, just let's have some good players play each other.

Personally, I do not like players switching all the time.

I am okay with a Kangaroo going over to his heritage or an ex-Kiwi playing for an island side, but generally I would much prefer that players chose and stuck for at least a chunk of time.

I just think if the NRL lets Fijian/Tongan/Samoan reps into Origin that others who meet the basic rules should also be allowed.

Edited October 3 by StandOffHalf

[StandOffHalf]

14 minutes ago, Damien said:

And this is why the mid season internationals were scrapped but in reverse. Players were starting to pick to play for their countries and this would have accelerated if we progressed to 3 mid season internationals, as previous NRL leaders had planned. Pretty hard to sell SOO as the elite when some of the best players are choosing to play internationals instead so lets just scrap them and take away that choice. 

Exactly!

[Sports Prophet]

3 hours ago, Dunbar said:

The problem with this is that the 'main event' is State of Origin and the internationals are the back up cast.

Look, I have no problem with State of Origin (I love the games) but if the best players are picking Origin and then the left overs are available for the PI Nations to play tests it is not the best solution.

And the Kangaroos need to be a brand that the Aussies get behind at every level of the game and if in a representative window the states are playing then that isn't going to happen.

To clarify, I am against players representing other nations and NSW or QLD. So in that instance I don’t think SOO necessarily becomes the main event but one of some very enticing representative matchups.

[Sports Prophet]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

And this is why the mid season internationals were scrapped but in reverse. Players were starting to pick to play for their countries and this would have accelerated if we progressed to 3 mid season internationals, as previous NRL leaders had planned. Pretty hard to sell SOO as the elite when some of the best players are choosing to play internationals instead so lets just scrap them and take away that choice. 

Is that actually correct? I haven’t researched before writing so there is potential to be demonstrated as incorrect, but my suspicions are that it is due to the decision to allow 2nd tier representatives to participate in Origin, paved the way for a flood of quality players to then choose to play for 2nd tier nations at the end of the season.

From what I recall, it was the NRLs decision which meant the overwhelming majority of potential 2nd tier national reps who were prioritising SOO, now could have their SOO cake and eat it internationally too.

If I am correct, I don’t think we have the likes of Luai, Chrichton and To’o choosing internationals over Origin.

[Dunbar]

12 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

To clarify, I am against players representing other nations and NSW or QLD. So in that instance I don’t think SOO necessarily becomes the main event but one of some very enticing representative matchups.

To be frank, it doesn't matter what you are for or against... players can represent other nations and one of NSW or QLD.  So if these sides play at the same time, players can't play for both.

[Exiled Wiganer]

Taumalolo is the perfect example of the huge benefits from allowing a player with multiple qualifications electing to play for a team other than Oz, NZ or GB/England. His choosing Tonga was the single most significant thing to happen to international rugby league in the last decade. 

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

Is that actually correct? I haven’t researched before writing so there is potential to be demonstrated as incorrect, but my suspicions are that it is due to the decision to allow 2nd tier representatives to participate in Origin, paved the way for a flood of quality players to then choose to play for 2nd tier nations at the end of the season.

From what I recall, it was the NRLs decision which meant the overwhelming majority of potential 2nd tier national reps who were prioritising SOO, now could have their SOO cake and eat it internationally too.

If I am correct, I don’t think we have the likes of Luai, Chrichton and To’o choosing internationals over Origin.

You seem to be having a different conversation.

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

To be frank, it doesn't matter what you are for or against... players can represent other nations and one of NSW or QLD.  So if these sides play at the same time, players can't play for both.

True. I think it was often a financial win to choose Origin. If the NRL were to own the mid season international series, then I would expect the financial reward to be matched. The RLPA would insist on it. This may mean players start to choose international reps over Origin.

[Sports Prophet]

14 minutes ago, Damien said:

You seem to be having a different conversation.

It’s related. I am suggesting that mid season internationals were not scrapped for the reason you claimed. Additionally, we have NRL supremos calling for a mid season Origin and international window which further goes against the claim for the NRL scrapping mid season internationals, albeit I do note we are likely talking about two different management eras at the NRL.

[Dunbar]

6 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

True. I think it was often a financial win to choose Origin. If the NRL were to own the mid season international series, then I would expect the financial reward to be matched. The RLPA would insist on it. This may mean players start to choose international reps over Origin.

It is still an inherently dissatisfactory solution playing State of Origin side by side with internationals.

Players should be able to play for their state and then progress to play for their national side if they play well enough and are selected.

Playing state games alongside international games and putting players in a position where they choose one or the other is crazy.

[Click]

20 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

It’s related. I am suggesting that mid season internationals were not scrapped for the reason you claimed. Additionally, we have NRL supremos calling for a mid season Origin and international window which further goes against the claim for the NRL scrapping mid season internationals, albeit I do note we are likely talking about two different management eras at the NRL.

The NRL literally had a mid season international window and then they scrapped it a few years back. 

What are you talking about?

[Damien]

46 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

It’s related. I am suggesting that mid season internationals were not scrapped for the reason you claimed. Additionally, we have NRL supremos calling for a mid season Origin and international window which further goes against the claim for the NRL scrapping mid season internationals, albeit I do note we are likely talking about two different management eras at the NRL.

The NRL literally scrapped mid season internationals after Tonga players such as Tevita Pangai Jr began to choose to play for Tonga over playing Origin. They purposely took away that choice by removing mid season internationals completely and limiting the international game.

[StandOffHalf]

Yeah, you had players like Daniel Tupou and Kotoni Staggs potentially going to play for Tonga over Origin.

The NRL under their then leadership headed that off and kept Origin from being competed with.

[Damien]

18 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

Yeah, you had players like Daniel Tupou and Kotoni Staggs potentially going to play for Tonga over Origin.

The NRL under their then leadership headed that off and kept Origin from being competed with.

And this is where the obstacle comes in with having mid season internationals again and certainly having more than one. If you have 3 internationals at the same time as Origin then there certainly is a reason to play for your country instead.

[StandOffHalf]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

And this is where the obstacle comes in with having mid season internationals again and certainly having more than one. If you have 3 internationals at the same time as Origin then there certainly is a reason to play for your country instead.

Yeah, it wouldn't be perfect to have SoO and internationals at the same time. As an internationalist though, I want international football to be more than a post-season after-thought.

[Sports Prophet]

7 hours ago, Dunbar said:

It is still an inherently dissatisfactory solution playing State of Origin side by side with internationals.

Players should be able to play for their state and then progress to play for their national side if they play well enough and are selected.

Playing state games alongside international games and putting players in a position where they choose one or the other is crazy.

Well it appears the only solutions for mid season internationals are:

1. Play them in a seperate weekend block at a seperate time of the season than Origin; or

2. Do away with Origin altogether; or

3. Don’t play mid season internationals.

So there needs to be compromise, because item 3 will always be the result, when the only other two options are so unreasonable. 

At least that’s how I see it. Unless you there is another option I haven’t considered listing?

[Sports Prophet]

7 hours ago, Click said:

The NRL literally had a mid season international window and then they scrapped it a few years back. 

What are you talking about?

I never disputed that. My comments are around the reason why they were scrapped and furthermore, the consideration to add them again.

[Sports Prophet]

7 hours ago, Damien said:

The NRL literally scrapped mid season internationals after Tonga players such as Tevita Pangai Jr began to choose to play for Tonga over playing Origin. They purposely took away that choice by removing mid season internationals completely and limiting the international game.

You may be right, but I don’t necessarily think you are. The last Pacific mid season test was 2018 I believe from wiki.

Your example TPJ is regarding a player who was selected in the 2016 for a WC Qualifier at a time he was never on the cards for Origin selection, then again for the Tonga WC squad in 2017, still not a choice he made over Origin. Then in 2018 he declines selection for Origin to continue to represent Tonga as claimed. 

Do you have any other examples you can share because this would say one player’s decision on one occasion changed the feature of mid season internationals within 12 months. I am finding evidence of the NRLs decision to stop mid season tests for this reason.

[Sports Prophet]

7 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

Yeah, you had players like Daniel Tupou and Kotoni Staggs potentially going to play for Tonga over Origin.

The NRL under their then leadership headed that off and kept Origin from being competed with.

Tupou was choosing Origin over Tonga well before the last mid season Tonga v Samoa international in 2018.

Staggs on the other hand didn’t make his NRL debut until mid 2018 and was never in Origin selection before the mid season tests were cancelled.

[StandOffHalf]

20 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Tupou was choosing Origin over Tonga well before the last mid season Tonga v Samoa international in 2018.

Staggs on the other hand didn’t make his NRL debut until mid 2018 and was never in Origin selection before the mid season tests were cancelled.

I realise that. I did include the word ''potentially''.

The fact that these games were a success that players were considering made them a rival (or a potential rival, if nurtured and fostered) to the primacy of Origin. 

I believe that that is why they were discontinued.

Why do you think they were done away with, if not to focus attention in on Origin and present players with the NRL's pyramid of priority?

Edited October 3 by StandOffHalf