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Halton Stadium in super league 2011


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#41 Padge

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 02:50 PM

QUOTE (chrisl1 @ Jul 19 2010, 03:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
According to the sporting life website Saint's new stadium should be ready towards the end of next season.

http://www.sportingl..._St_Helens.html

The stadium will be ready at the end of 2011 not at the end of the 2011 season, there is a good few months difference.

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#42 Doghead

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 03:33 PM






QUESTION for you..... what happens if the funds break down for the Saints build????
[/quote]

Its all bonded, monies in the bank.

#43 1976PMJwires

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 05:59 PM

QUOTE (Doghead @ Jul 19 2010, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUESTION for you..... what happens if the funds break down for the Saints build????


Its all bonded, monies in the bank.


Well that is great news for all involved.

#44 Jill Halfpenny fan

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 07:10 PM

Excellent news.

Hope the rent is exorbitant.

Might knock a few bob off my council tax.
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#45 1976PMJwires

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 07:14 PM

QUOTE (Jill Halfpenny fan @ Jul 19 2010, 08:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Excellent news.

Hope the rent is exorbitant.

Might knock a few bob off my council tax.




laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

PS the goverment have frozen the council tax, so no chance of a refund / reduction.
PPS you can watch SL though, a year early wink.gif

#46 Segovia Carpet

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 08:20 PM

QUOTE (1976PMJwires @ Jul 18 2010, 05:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If Salford can manage it why can't Saints???????

i will never ever feel sorry for Saints, they have had years of success and they should have had this all sorted out.

the willows is a bigger hole than KR


i) The Salford playing surface is best in the RL on the West of the Pennines - FACT
ii) The Variety Centre is still an excellent venue for even Warrington lads and lasses to have a great night out

............................................ so its not all bad news is it?

#47 1976PMJwires

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 08:24 PM

QUOTE (Segovia Carpet @ Jul 19 2010, 09:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i) The Salford playing surface is best in the RL on the West of the Pennines - FACT
ii) The Variety Centre is still an excellent venue for even Warrington lads and lasses to have a great night out

............................................ so its not all bad news is it?



i.) plenty of horse manure over the years does help. rolleyes.gif

ii.) Manchester the draw, not the little city of Salford tongue.gif

I have been nice to Salford RLFC on this thread. dry.gif

#48 Viking Warrior

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 08:46 PM

QUOTE (1976PMJwires @ Jul 19 2010, 09:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i.) plenty of horse manure over the years does help. rolleyes.gif

ii.) Manchester the draw, not the little city of Salford tongue.gif

I have been nice to Salford RLFC on this thread. dry.gif



that's enough grounds to get you sectioned!!
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#49 giwildgo

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 08:51 PM

I may have to take a shower after this post, but...I think Saints are being pretty clever about this stadium move. It certainly makes sense from a financial perspective to sell Knowsley Road to fund the build and rent a modern stadium in the current economic climate. It is also beneficial to Widnes to show SL in a good light at the Stobart. But where Saints have really been sensible is that they have also thought about retaining their current fans who might otherwise be reluctant to travel out of St. Helens, by giving priority seating and fixing season ticket prices for 3 years if you buy one for Widnes next year. Couple that with a new logo that is more about creating a 'Saints RL' brand that is not St. Helens focused (see below) and once they move into the new stadium they may have a far bigger catchment for supporters because of a temporary geographic move.

Saints New Logo

Widnes should be the ones who are worried - assuming they have a proportion of floating support, their crowds are likely to drop next season, as the majority of people will inevitably choose SL rugby on their doorstep over an inferior alternative and may never go back. Its almost a friendly takeover by Saints RL much like a Trojan horse.

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#50 Padge

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 08:59 PM

QUOTE (giwildgo @ Jul 19 2010, 09:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I may have to take a shower after this post, but...I think Saints are being pretty clever about this stadium move. It certainly makes sense from a financial perspective to sell Knowsley Road to fund the build and rent a modern stadium in the current economic climate. It is also beneficial to Widnes to show SL in a good light at the Stobart. But where Saints have really been sensible is that they have also thought about retaining their current fans who might otherwise be reluctant to travel out of St. Helens, by giving priority seating and fixing season ticket prices for 3 years if you buy one for Widnes next year. Couple that with a new logo that is more about creating a 'Saints RL' brand that is not St. Helens focused (see below) and once they move into the new stadium they may have a far bigger catchment for supporters because of a temporary geographic move.

Saints New Logo

Widnes should be the ones who are worried - assuming they have a proportion of floating support, their crowds are likely to drop next season, as the majority of people will inevitably choose SL rugby on their doorstep over an inferior alternative and may never go back. Its almost a friendly takeover by Saints RL much like a Trojan horse.


It could of course be a great benefit to Widnes by creating a buzz about the town when the 'Big RL Clubs' are in town. This buzz could rub off on the locals who then spark up more interest in the local lads.


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#51 Segovia Carpet

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 09:12 PM

QUOTE (giwildgo @ Jul 19 2010, 09:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I may have to take a shower after this post, but...I think Saints are being pretty clever about this stadium move. It certainly makes sense from a financial perspective to sell Knowsley Road to fund the build and rent a modern stadium in the current economic climate. It is also beneficial to Widnes to show SL in a good light at the Stobart. But where Saints have really been sensible is that they have also thought about retaining their current fans who might otherwise be reluctant to travel out of St. Helens, by giving priority seating and fixing season ticket prices for 3 years if you buy one for Widnes next year. Couple that with a new logo that is more about creating a 'Saints RL' brand that is not St. Helens focused (see below) and once they move into the new stadium they may have a far bigger catchment for supporters because of a temporary geographic move.

Saints New Logo

Widnes should be the ones who are worried - assuming they have a proportion of floating support, their crowds are likely to drop next season, as the majority of people will inevitably choose SL rugby on their doorstep over an inferior alternative and may never go back. Its almost a friendly takeover by Saints RL much like a Trojan horse.


Blimey giwildgo I think the Halton Mafia will be rattling their keyboards shortly. Very inciteful post though imo.

#52 Jill Halfpenny fan

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 10:15 PM

QUOTE (giwildgo @ Jul 19 2010, 09:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Widnes should be the ones who are worried - assuming they have a proportion of floating support, their crowds are likely to drop next season, as the majority of people will inevitably choose SL rugby on their doorstep over an inferior alternative and may never go back. Its almost a friendly takeover by Saints RL much like a Trojan horse.


How many "floating supporters" do you reckon Widnes' possess?

Anyone still attending after all the ###### of recent years is far more likely to be "committed" than "floating".

The floaters will have already floated off.

Where to?

Most of them probably down the pub with a Utd or Liverpool shirt on.

One of my concerns is can Widnes get these people back after whats gone on should they get back in in 2012.

Which is why I doubt they'll be beating a path to fork out to watch Saints.

For what its worth I reckon the Widnes crowds will probably fall anyway next season because theres very little interest in this division.

Of those who drop off from this season, most of then will have just had a belly full of the RFL.

If they've stuck with Widnes this long I wouldn't count on them as potential customers.

Which brings us to those who will still be watching Widnes.

This is the group were you might get a few attendees from IMO.

Though with these, while some will be rugby league diehards theres more than a few who'd have nothing to do with it.

So with regards to it being a Trojan horse, I reckon its a non starter.

You'll likely get a few who will watch both and thats about it.

With regards to Saints themselves.

It will be interesting to see how their home support stands up.

Could be a costly year for them.
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#53 Dave T

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 08:36 AM

I think that new Saints logo is really rather nice.

#54 Padge

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 09:06 AM

I'm beginning to smell a rat.

Saints have ballsed this up somehwere.

The stadium is a 60 week build, 12 months ago Saints announced they were about to announce the contractor for the build., they also said that they would have to move the first few games of the 2012 season to on the road.

No problem with that so far.

Working back, lets say therefore the original opening date was going to be April 2011. 60 Weeks prior work must have started to meat the build time (we'll allow a few extra weeks for just in case.) That means build start would have to have been January this year.

Meanwhile Saqints have sold their ground to Taylor Wimpey for housing, Saints must have signed up foolishley to a fixed for vacation despite having no fixed finish date for the stadium (no builing contractor signed up).

This left Saints with an urgent need to get the contracts signed up and delivered, a share release and a 400,000 cash injection this time last year had to be punped into the project to convince the developers that the right finance was in place to go ahead.

Saints did this (July 2009), and announced the project would be going out to tender (August at the earliest). That gave them 5 months to meet the january build start date.

Surely by then Saints knew that the project was not going to be ready for anytime during the 2011 season, why string along this nonsense about only part of the season being at Widnes.

To me Saints have covered their tracks well, this project seems to have had a lot more obsticles than appears on the surface.

Getting tied into the classic Jack Robinson mistake of selling your ground without having a replccement in place, a funding shortage cropping up halfway down the line.

Surely the Taylor wimpey contract should have been claused to include the possibility that Saints may need the ground for another season.

Maybe the reason for the delay is just that this was an underfunded project and when the banks took a closer look following their change of habits someone found a big hole.

The project is suddenly 8 months late and the only thing that appears to have been a problem is the funding hole last year. It seems like Saints have had to dance a merry dance across some very thin ice to get to this stage. I hopr they don't find any suprise large holes under this new ground.


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#55 Bleep1673

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 10:23 AM

QUOTE (Bomb Jack @ Jul 18 2010, 09:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1. It's Stobart Stadium, Halton, NOT Halton Stadium.

2. Why does Saints playing in Widnes all year make us certs for SL ? We have had our " adequate " Stadium for over 10 years, it makes no odds as far as i can see.

I thought one of the criteria for a SL license was winning one of the trophys on offer to Championship teams, doesn't look like Widnes will get a license in 2012 now, after getting beat by Batley, and being off the pace in the League. Saints playing at Widnes' Naughton Park may be the only time you get to see Superleague before the next licensing round in 2016
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#56 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 10:29 AM

QUOTE (Bleep1673 @ Jul 20 2010, 11:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I thought one of the criteria for a SL license was winning one of the trophys on offer to Championship teams, doesn't look like Widnes will get a license in 2012 now, after getting beat by Batley, and being off the pace in the League. Saints playing at Widnes' Naughton Park may be the only time you get to see Superleague before the next licensing round in 2016


Widnes won it last year pal

#57 Bomb Jack

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 10:41 AM

QUOTE (Bleep1673 @ Jul 20 2010, 11:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
before the next licensing round in 2016


The next round after 2012 - 2014 is 2015 - 2017.............

Widnes - Super League's newest Club, and Cheshire's Original Glamour Club. Watch out Warrington, we're back !

#58 FearTheVee

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 12:39 PM

QUOTE (Padge @ Jul 20 2010, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm beginning to smell a rat.


You're hoping you smell a rat, through poorly structured conclusions to facts.

QUOTE (Padge @ Jul 20 2010, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Saints have ballsed this up somehwere.


Again, you hope they have from your weird conclusions.

QUOTE (Padge @ Jul 20 2010, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The stadium is a 60 week build, 12 months ago Saints announced they were about to announce the contractor for the build., they also said that they would have to move the first few games of the 2012 season to on the road.

No problem with that so far.

Working back, lets say therefore the original opening date was going to be April 2011. 60 Weeks prior work must have started to meat the build time (we'll allow a few extra weeks for just in case.) That means build start would have to have been January this year.

Meanwhile Saqints have sold their ground to Taylor Wimpey for housing, Saints must have signed up foolishley to a fixed for vacation despite having no fixed finish date for the stadium (no builing contractor signed up).


Firstly, when did Saints say they they were looking to move "the first few games" of the 2012 season on the road to give you your January build start?

Secondly, why is a fixed date for vacation foolish? It offered the club certainty of timing and locked in a contract value. No building contractor signed up? So what? That is a tender process - do you think all the builders are going to disappear by the time Saints offer the project for tender? It's not like we're begging for a contractor, the contractors fight for the work.

QUOTE (Padge @ Jul 20 2010, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This left Saints with an urgent need to get the contracts signed up and delivered, a share release and a 400,000 cash injection this time last year had to be punped into the project to convince the developers that the right finance was in place to go ahead.


Or to strengthen the club's balance sheet by converting debt to equity and putting the Limited company in a stronger position to raise finance on better terms? Could you give a link to the source saying this cash was pumped into the stadium project, or have you made it up?

QUOTE (Padge @ Jul 20 2010, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Saints did this (July 2009), and announced the project would be going out to tender (August at the earliest). That gave them 5 months to meet the january build start date.

Surely by then Saints knew that the project was not going to be ready for anytime during the 2011 season, why string along this nonsense about only part of the season being at Widnes.


Is that REALLY the rat you smell laugh.gif Hardly worth all that research, Saints fans have known for ages we'd be playing the majority if not all of 2011 at Widnes. It's a multi-faceted project with partners other than Saints, unforeseen delays are not unheard of.

QUOTE (Padge @ Jul 20 2010, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To me Saints have covered their tracks well, this project seems to have had a lot more obsticles than appears on the surface.


It's had enormous obstacles dating back many years, which is why it's taken so long and is such a great achievement. So why do you say "Saints have ballsed this up somewhere" when the reality is that Saints have done terrifcally well to get this project off the ground in a difficult environment?

QUOTE (Padge @ Jul 20 2010, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Getting tied into the classic Jack Robinson mistake of selling your ground without having a replccement in place, a funding shortage cropping up halfway down the line.


We always had a contingency to play at Widnes, so we did "have a replacement in place". The long term replacement is a brand new, purpose built, fully owned RL stadium - perhaps you can clarify the parallels with Jack Robinson and Wigan selling a ground to avoid going bust rather than selling a ground to build a new one?

QUOTE (Padge @ Jul 20 2010, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Surely the Taylor wimpey contract should have been claused to include the possibility that Saints may need the ground for another season.


Why would we want to Give TW the opportunity to price chip or pull out? Do you think they would just agree a price then say "hey stay as long as you like, we'll put the cash aside and pay you the same regardless of what you decide to do".

And that's ignoring the costs associated with staying at KR, which McManus cites as higher than moving to Widnes anyway on the BBC today:

Saints chairman Eamonn McManus said: "It's a necessity, we cannot stay at Knowsley Road. It's the only way to finance the new stadium and more importantly we can't keep it open for another year.

"In terms of basic safety requirements and basic investment in facilities the cost of doing that is much more prohibitive than going to Widnes. In addition to that it's a part of the financing structure for the new stadium that Knowsley Road is sold.

QUOTE (Padge @ Jul 20 2010, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe the reason for the delay is just that this was an underfunded project and when the banks took a closer look following their change of habits someone found a big hole.


Good work Columbo. Zero basis in fact, but a nice wigan slant. I can almost smell the tenant jealousy.

QUOTE (Padge @ Jul 20 2010, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The project is suddenly 8 months late and the only thing that appears to have been a problem is the funding hole last year. It seems like Saints have had to dance a merry dance across some very thin ice to get to this stage. I hopr they don't find any suprise large holes under this new ground.


The funding hole that you made up? Imaginary Wigan thin ice is easier to dance across than real, solid ground.

The project has been priced, funding is set aside and the project bonded. The stadium will be built just fine, but thanks for your concern.

That huge funding gap you refer to must have been plugged pretty well given Tony Colquitt's comments on the BBC website today:

"It not only allows us to invest in the 17 on the park, but alongside that we'll be announcing shortly plans for training facilities and a centre of excellence, which will be on a par with anything out there in the league."

Edited by FearTheVee, 20 July 2010 - 12:51 PM.


#59 Whacky Llama

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 12:50 PM

QUOTE (FearTheVee @ Jul 20 2010, 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You're hoping you smell a rat, through poorly structured conclusions to facts.



Again, you hope they have from your weird conclusions.



Firstly, when did Saints say they they were looking to move "the first few games" of the 2012 season on the road to give you your January build start?

Secondly, why is a fixed date for vacation foolish? It offered the club certainty of timing and locked in a contract value. No building contractor signed up? So what? That is a tender process - do you think all the builders are going to disappear by the time Saints offer the project for tender? It's not like we're begging for a contractor, the contractors fight for the work.



Or to strengthen the club's balance sheet by converting debt to equity and putting the Limited company in a stronger position to raise finance on better terms? Could you give a link to the source saying this cash was pumped into the project rather than converting debt to equity, or have you made it up?



Is that REALLY the rat you smell laugh.gif Hardly worth all that research, Saints fans have known for ages we'd be playing the majority if not all of 2011 at Widnes. It's a multi-faceted project with partners other than Saints, unforeseen delays are not unheard of.



It's had enormous obstacles dating back many years, which is why it's taken so long and is such a great achievement. So why do you say "Saints have ballsed this up somewhere" when the reality is that Saints have done terrifcally well to get this project off the ground in a difficult environment?



We always had a contingency to play at Widnes, so we did "have a replacement in place". The long term replacement is a brand new, purpose built, fully owned RL stadium - perhaps you can clarify the parallels with Jack Robinson and Wigan selling a ground to avoid going bust rather than selling a ground to build a new one?



Why would we want to Give TW the opportunity to price chip or pull out? Do you think they would just agree a price then say "hey stay as long as you like, we'll put the cash aside and pay you the same regardless of what you decide to do".



Good work Columbo. Zero basis in fact, but a nice wigan slant. I can almost smell the tenant jealousy.



The funding hole that you made up? Imaginary Wigan thin ice is easier to dance across than real, solid ground.

The project has been priced, funding is set aside and the project bonded. The stadium will be built just fine, but thanks for your concern.

That huge funding gap you refer to must have been plugged pretty well given Tony Colquitt's comments on the BBC website today:

"It not only allows us to invest in the 17 on the park, but alongside that we'll be announcing shortly plans for training facilities and a centre of excellence, which will be on a par with anything out there in the league."


What he Said biggrin.gif


#60 Padge

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 01:14 PM

So the directors didn't have to chuck in a couple of million quid last year to ensure the project went ahead?


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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.





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