The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[thundergaz]

Your best chance of success would be someone like Toulouse who, presumably, would be able to utilise close to a full salary cap a d would probably be best placed to take advantage of the four home pool games.

We will have a good chance too. We will be going full time and using the full salary cap. The only problem is we will be fighting with 3 or 4 clubs for the best players around to play in SL2. Dog eat dog scenario or the my wallet is bigger than yours scenario.(should be interesting not).But like you said to lobby it will make it a put up or shut up scenario.As daft as it sounds to improve our chances of success we don't want c@s or wakey coming down.

Edited August 3, 2013 by thundergaz

[Griff]

We will have a good chance too. We will be going full time and using the full salary cap. The only problem is we will be fighting with 3 or 4 clubs for the best players around to play in SL2. Dog eat dog scenario or the my wallet is bigger than yours scenario.(should be interesting not).But like you said to lobby it will make it a put up or shut up scenario.

The bigger problem is attracting players good enough to be in $L1 to come and play three quarters of the season in $L2.

[thundergaz]

The bigger problem is attracting players good enough to be in $L1 to come and play three quarters of the season in $L2.

True Richie. But then again like I said we will be paying over the odds for mediocre SL1 players.

[ckn]

We will have a good chance too. We will be going full time and using the full salary cap. The only problem is we will be fighting with 3 or 4 clubs for the best players around to play in SL2. Dog eat dog scenario or the my wallet is bigger than yours scenario.(should be interesting not).But like you said to lobby it will make it a put up or shut up scenario.As daft as it sounds to improve our chances of success we don't want c@s or wakey coming down.

Did I miss something else?  I can't see how you can go full-time under the current Championship salary cap unless there's a commitment by the RFL to massively increase the salary cap, at best £300k will get you the skeleton of a full-time 13.  Even if it's doubled then you'll still struggle to get a squad of players capable of challenging a SL side regularly.

[a.n Other]

Did I miss something else? I can't see how you can go full-time under the current Championship salary cap unless there's a commitment by the RFL to massively increase the salary cap, at best £300k will get you the skeleton of a full-time 13. Even if it's doubled then you'll still struggle to get a squad of players capable of challenging a SL side regularly.

The salary cap will have to be changed and will be I would imagine. I agree having a £300k salary cap wouldn't work at all.

[thundergaz]

Did I miss something else? I can't see how you can go full-time under the current Championship salary cap unless there's a commitment by the RFL to massively increase the salary cap, at best £300k will get you the skeleton of a full-time 13. Even if it's doubled then you'll still struggle to get a squad of players capable of challenging a SL side regularly.

Like I've said before that's one of many reasons why I'm not in favour of the new system. But like ive said before I would like the SL2 to have a salary cap either similar to SL1 or a max of say a million. So the current champ clubs can at least compete with the bottom of SL1.you might say well that as a formula of boom and bust in it. But I honestly do think with the licencing system that's been in place for so long clubs will know what they can and can't spend as the licencing system as made many clubs more wiser to their budgets.

Edited August 3, 2013 by thundergaz

[Lobbygobbler]

Like I've said before that's one of many reasons why I'm not in favour of the new system. But like ive said before I would like the SL2 to have a salary cap either similar to SL1 or a max of say a million. So the current champ clubs can at least compete with the bottom of SL1.you might say well that as a formula of boom and bust in it. But I honestly do think with the licencing system that's been in place for so long clubs will know what they can and can't spend as the licencing system as made many clubs more wiser to their budgets.

Is it not possible for the RFL to somehow monitor the finances of clubs to see that they arent going under. I think clubs should have to provide a monthly brief on their books to the RFL. A bit like how a project manager has to report monthly on how his/her project is faring both technically and financially

[Pottsy]

Is it not possible for the RFL to somehow monitor the finances of clubs to see that they arent going under. I think clubs should have to provide a monthly brief on their books to the RFL. A bit like how a project manager has to report monthly on how his/her project is faring both technically and financially

The problem here is that these monthly accounts would have to be filed monthly and honestly, the RFL would then need to employ a team of people to audit them. And, even then, if the RFL does spot that someone is overspending what exactly can they do?

Licensing was brought in mainly to try to instil order and control and to try to rein in the clubs' own lack of financial responsibility.

Unfortunately, it led to complacency in some cases but, more significantly, people like yourself railed against it vociferously almost from the word go.

You've (kind of) got what you wanted now and only time will tell (that phrase again!) whether clubs like Leigh will be able to resist 'putting all their chips on black' to try to sneak into Super League.

They may well succeed, at which point they'll face the challenge of hastily assembling a fulltime off-field operation, but at least they'll have the prospect of a massive funding hike.

But if they fail......

It'll be interesting to see how many clubs are willing to accept mediocrity in a league which isn't really a league and how many others choose to put all their chips on black.

Time will definitely tell!

Edited August 3, 2013 by Pottsy

[Lobbygobbler]

The problem here is that these monthly accounts would have to be filed monthly and honestly, the RFL would then need to employ a team of people to audit them. And, even then, if the RFL does spot that someone is overspending what exactly can they do?

Licensing was brought in mainly to try to instil order and control and to try to rein in the clubs' own lack of financial responsibility.

Unfortunately, it led to complacency in some cases but, more significantly, people like yourself railed against it vociferously almost from the word go.

You've (kind of) got what you wanted now and only time will tell (that phrase again!) whether clubs like Leigh will be able to resist 'putting all their chips on black' to try to sneak into Super League.

They may well succeed, at which point they'll face the challenge of hastily assembling a fulltime off-field operation, but at least they'll have the prospect of a massive funding hike.

But if they fail......

It'll be interesting to see how many clubs are willing to accept mediocrity in a league which isn't really a league and how many others choose to put all their chips on black.

Time will definitely tell!

But you can still have financial prudence and control with P&R. Historically RL has been plagued by poor management which is not linked to P&R - I don't see why the RFL cant maintain this aspect. Personally I hope clubs will live within their means and flourish, rather than break the bank.

[Pottsy]

But you can still have financial prudence and control with P&R. Historically RL has been plagued by poor management which is not linked to P&R - I don't see why the RFL cant maintain this aspect. Personally I hope clubs will live within their means and flourish, rather than break the bank.

History suggests otherwise.

Listen, I want to see P&R introduced in a sustainable and properly financed way. However, what I suspect we're seeing is an opening of the floodgates.

Look out for existing Super League clubs maxing out the credit cards next season in a desperate bid to avoid finishing 13th or 14th and a similar or bust approach the year after when Leigh et al are thrown into the mix.

[thundergaz]

History suggests otherwise.

Listen, I want to see P&R introduced in a sustainable and properly financed way. However, what I suspect we're seeing is an opening of the floodgates.

Look out for existing Super League clubs maxing out the credit cards next season in a desperate bid to avoid finishing 13th or 14th and a similar ###### or bust approach the year after when Leigh et al are thrown into the mix.

I agree pottsy. But bringing P&R back in any shape or form maxing the credit cards will still happen to avoid the drop or to get promoted. Also I don't think their is more than 2 clubs in the current champ that can throw money at getting out of the league.

[keighley]

I think the points carried over is a good thing personally as it makes every game mean something. I also think the middle 8 should have some kind of points scheme too. Maybe something like the top team of SL2 starts with 4 points 2nd with 2 3rd with 1 and 4th off level then 4th bottom in SL1 starts with 4points 3rd bottom 2 2nd bottom 1 and bottom off level (just an idea of course). But you know what I'm getting at. Also if a team finishes 5th and gets relegated then I feel personally they deserve to be relegated.as no team that finishes 5th should come anywhere near relegation if they do then they deserve to be relegated.

 

With respect, that's even more wrinkles to take into account. It's all getting too complicated. Simplicity that even a five year old can understand is what shoud drive league formats not the need to learn some complicated equation to make any sense of it all.

[koli]

Assuming some lifting of the salary cap at Champ1 level the proposed system allows an ambitious club with a supportive board/investors to have a defined pathway to getting into the top division.it is in effect "put your money up first" licensing which is surely better than the current system.

[The Parksider]

Licensing was brought in mainly to try to instil order and control and to try to rein in the clubs' own lack of financial responsibility.

 

 

It was mainly brought in as a concept to create the conditions in which SL clubs lower down the League could grow without the threat of relegation. 

 

It was also convenient for ensuring non heartland expansion clubs could not be relegated allowing their growth..

 

The expansion clubs London and Cru failed, Bradford, Salford, Wakey went bust or near bust, club chairmen could not get growth - check out crowds at HKR Fartown and Widnes and Cas's severe money problems has led to the concept of licensing being a failure.

 

So looking at the realities the return to P & R isn't so much about P & R being so wonderful, it's more about licensing failing in it's "main" aim.

 

Rimmer explained this main aim in 2006.

 

As has been said a return to P & R is more likely to create financial irreponsibility

[The Parksider]

Assuming some lifting of the salary cap at Champ1 level the proposed system allows an ambitious club with a supportive board/investors to have a defined pathway to getting into the top division.it is in effect "put your money up first" licensing which is surely better than the current system.

 

The current system hasn't produced growth which it was designed for.

 

Outside SL it's led to severe stagnation and decline.

 

SL is stagnating and declining under licensing and so the danger is the SKY contract is at risk.

 

Only IMHO with some reasoning and logic based on realities do I agree with you that the changes are to open up SL for whoever has the readies to come in and spend some money to bolster the competition.

 

What fits with this is SKY's requirement to maintain 12 clubs on the same cap.

Edited August 4, 2013 by The Parksider

[Martyn Sadler]

The current system hasn't produced growth which it was designed for.

 

Outside SL it's led to severe stagnation and decline.

 

SL is stagnating and declining under licensing and so the danger is the SKY contract is at risk.

 

Only IMHO with some reasoning and logic based on realities do I agree with you that the changes are to open up SL for whoever has the readies to come in and spend some money to bolster the competition.

 

What fits with this is SKY's requirement to maintain 12 clubs on the same cap.

The Super League TV audience increased by 19% in 2012.

 

Outside Super League, we've seen three new clubs from outside the traditional heartlands, while other non-hearltnad clubs like North Wales and London Skolars continue to develop strongly.

 

Those are very strange definitions of stagnation.

 

The problem facing Super League is mainly tied up with one club, which is the London Broncos and can be accused of having stagnated.

 

The issue of what to do about the Broncos is a very specific one, not necessarily related to the rest of the game.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Right, there's a lot of discussion here, and a lot of opinions that basically look like they're just getting repeated over and over.

What I haven't found yet is what is now actually been proposed in this 3x8 system. I know they've shifted from playing each other once to playing each other twice in the first round, which I think is a far better idea. But is there something official out there with the proposal?

Basically, what I'd go with is:

Super League stage - Play each other twice for the right to be crowned League Leaders (22 games).

Championship League stage - Same as SL, except you'd become the champions.

SL play-off stage - Play each other once, including Magic Weekend. Top four go into semis.

Promotion play-off stage - Play each other once, including Magic Weekend. Top three get promoted. 4th vs 5th in promotion play-off final. None of this top four semis and a final for nothing that I've been hearing (sounds like a damp squib). 4th vs 5th guarantees a Championship club will be in a play-off final.

Northern Rail Cup stage - Teams that are left in the Championship can play for the NRC. Yeah, it's a consolation trophy, but it's only a short period of the season (unlike the previous format where they'd be playing for a consolation prize from round 12). Bottom two to be relegated.

[Lobbygobbler]

The Super League TV audience increased by 19% in 2012.

Outside Super League, we've seen three new clubs from outside the traditional heartlands, while other non-hearltnad clubs like North Wales and London Skolars continue to develop strongly.

Those are very strange definitions of stagnation.

The problem facing Super League is mainly tied up with one club, which is the London Broncos and can be accused of having stagnated.

The issue of what to do about the Broncos is a very specific one, not necessarily related to the rest of the game.

Martyn, I'm surprised that the SL viewing figures have increased when the figures often posted on here look worse than a few years ago. I personally dumped sky sports because I think we need change.

Regarding London, I have sadly stopped going to the last few games because there is nothing to play for quite frankly. I cant justify the money. Had they been fighting for their lives last Thurs I would have gone though, as I did when they were in a similar position at Brentford (which saw them escape relegation by beating the likes of Wigan, with good attendances). The atmosphere is FAR better under the threat of relegation -and the joy of a win is far far higher. I suspect quite a lot of other London fans feel the same, and I suspect the same applies at other lower SL clubs. The game needs the jeopardy element at the bottom.

You also didnt mention the league below SL which is stagnant. Is that because you think clubs like Leigh, Fax, Fev, Barrow, Sheffield etc are irrelevant? These Clubs/fans need the chance to regularly progress otherwise people are not that interested.

You mentioned the new teams which are progessing nicely, but they will hit a problem if/when they get promoted because there is nowhere to go to. Fans know that. Also crowds in the third tier are still very low. I think they will increase under the new scheme because SL can really be achieved within their lifetime. For example, we could in theory see Cru or Skolars in SL in 2016 with the new scheme. For me that is exciting. Under licensing we'd be waiting for eons

[archibald]

Martyn, I'm surprised that the SL viewing figures have increased when the figures often posted on here look worse than a few years ago. I personally dumped sky sports because I think we need change.

Regarding London, I have sadly stopped going to the last few games because there is nothing to play for quite frankly. I cant justify the money. Had they been fighting for their lives last Thurs I would have gone though, as I did when they were in a similar position at Brentford (which saw them escape relegation by beating the likes of Wigan, with good attendances). The atmosphere is FAR better under the threat of relegation -and the joy of a win is far far higher. I suspect quite a lot of other London fans feel the same, and I suspect the same applies at other lower SL clubs. The game needs the jeopardy element at the bottom.

You also didnt mention the league below SL which is stagnant. Is that because you think clubs like Leigh, Fax, Fev, Barrow, Sheffield etc are irrelevant? These Clubs/fans need the chance to regularly progress otherwise people are not that interested.

You mentioned the new teams which are progessing nicely, but they will hit a problem if/when they get promoted because there is nowhere to go to. Fans know that. Also crowds in the third tier are still very low. I think they will increase under the new scheme because SL can really be achieved within their lifetime. For example, we could in theory see Cru or Skolars in SL in 2016 with the new scheme. For me that is exciting. Under licensing we'd be waiting for eons

Lets have the figures then, what increase in crowds will there be now the pathway to "stupid league" is open. Lets start with Leigh. They will have a crowd increase of what?

[thundergaz]

With respect, that's even more wrinkles to take into account. It's all getting too complicated. Simplicity that even a five year old can understand is what shoud drive league formats not the need to learn some complicated equation to make any sense of it all.

I don't see what's so complicated with the new system. I'm not a fan of the system but complicated it is not.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Lets have the figures then, what increase in crowds will there be now the pathway to "stupid league" is open. Lets start with Leigh. They will have a crowd increase of what?

Good argument. A patronising name for the league followed by an impossible to answer question...

[thundergaz]

Lets have the figures then, what increase in crowds will there be now the pathway to "stupid league" is open. Lets start with Leigh. They will have a crowd increase of what?

To be fair I think its inevitable the champ clubs will get an increase in their crowds with P&R returning. I don't think many if any SL crowds will improve though.

Edited August 4, 2013 by thundergaz

[Griff]

I don't see what's so complicated with the new system. I'm not a fan of the system but complicated it is not.

OK, here's a start - if you finish top of $L2 after the 22/23 game part of the season, have you won something ?

Or have you qualified for something else ?

[Wellsy4HullFC]

I don't see what's so complicated with the new system. I'm not a fan of the system but complicated it is not.

I think people are confusing complicated with lack of knowledge. We don't fully know the system yet so we are hardly in a position to understand it!

Main thing I'm against is the silly play-off in the middle tier. It's completely pointless and will be a massive flop. There is zero at stake. 4th vs 5th for the final spot would be a much better idea.

Other than that, I think it's a far better idea than having random repeat fixtures to make 27 games and a play-off series that only really kicks in in the last two weeks (as the crowds have shown). 7 weeks of higher intensity games followed by a simple 2 week knock-out would be far better crowd-wise (and you'd be as to put them on the season ticket so people will more likely turn up than if you make them buy a ticket like in the current play-offs). AND it's two extra guaranteed games for every club without making the season longer.

Just hurry up and announce something is all I'm asking!

[Griff]

To be fair I think its inevitable the champ clubs will get an increase in their crowds with P&R returning.

That's an argument many clubs have used to excuse their poor crowds. Now we'll find out whether it was true or whether we were just kidding ourselves.