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Les Tonks Sidestep

Bradford Bulls / HMRC / Administration

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If that EXCLUDES Green, then:

 

1 - How on EARTH could such a sum have arisen?  Although I guess it will now include employee claims, and other liabilities now crystalised?

 

2 - Agreed, that is far too big a mountain to expect any new investor to climb. And, in which case, heaven help us.

 

If the club owes £1.4m PLUS whatever it owes Green (I'll await the statement of affairs, which has to be filed soony) then some serious investigation is surely required!

I assume it excludes Green as he would surely be classed as a connected party ? A large part of it will be players contract money - any who signed 2 or 3 year deals their full contract value will be included. I remember when Workington went into admin when we were relegated from SL in 1996 our debt was quoted as £1.1m but about £750k of that was player contract future values rather than immediately owed money.


I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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Why should Toronto shoot straight in at championship?? If bulls have a chance to form again to play the season out

Then that will be best for rugby league

How many fans will Toronto bring over??zero!!!

Support our teams first

I'm not bulls fan at all.... I'm rugby league fan

Toronto have done nothing as of yet... let them prove thr worth it

We know bulls have been run very badly, but thr fans deserve more respect from the rugby league family

Not 2 faced t#%%^# on here, throwing them down the bottom....

I guess because Toronto MAY be the only club in L1 able to step up to the mark at short order?  No other justification, IMO.  If e.g. Whitehaven said they could step up tomorrow, then surely that would be a no-brainer?


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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I would be surprised if this is catastrophic at all for Bradford. It was an inevitable result once the consortium approved by the RFL had their bid rejected by Green (not the administration). This is good news for them as long as they genuinely have enough money and are leaguies. The sorts of money they need in any event to set up the Bulls would easily be enough to field a decent squad. I think that the RFL would be justified in pointing out that Bradford's position differs from other insolvencies we have seen in that the previous owner prevented a transition - hence the minus 12 and retainibg their place.

Either there is a rich group able to invest millions - which is what Bradford have always needed - in which case a deal will be done. As we must suspect is the case given that a bid was approved. Or there isn't and never has been in which case they were doomed.

This Is far from the end for the Bulls. And happily so.

Edited by Exiled Wiganer

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Adey,Why am I not surprised on the £4 million pounds owing to the H.M.R.C. and why did the R.L.F not pick up on previous owners and cohorts who were well documented on Companies Websites.If I could quite easily read them surely the powers that be could and indeed should have.Unfortunately Adey I think this is only the tip of the iceberg.I am sure several other clubs are trading way above their means and it will not be long before those particular pigeons come home to roost.A sad,sad day for our beloved Rugby League.

When you look at the statement of affairs of that company, it cries out for investigation IMO.  The document was filed on 2 June. I saw it not long after, and have been wondering ever since what the RFL's view on it was...

 

And yes, about various previous people too.

 

For years, I have felt the RFL has been so desperate to see clubs saved from oblivion (or even from someone they did not want...) that they have been prepared to accept owners etc that normal due dilligence would probably cast doubt upon.  Not just here - go ask clubs like Widnes about one of their past owners, for example?

 

But, the alternative?  To let more clubs crash into oblivion, and be blamed for that? 

 

Although no fan of the present RFL leadership, at all, I nevertheless acknowledge that in situations like this they are between a rock and a hard place.  And that the real issue was, and remains, a desperate shortage of responsible and sustainable money into the game.


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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If Toronto were to be put straight into the Championship what does anybody think the reaction would be if they themselves struggled with relegation which would be quite possible.Remember the squad they have garnered together are basically all of Championship material,a lot who could not get regular game time with their previous clubs and players who won a scholarship to become part of the squad.They would have the satisfaction of having to play H.K.R. three times for starters.In my humble opinion it would be a recipe for total disaster at a time when the R.F.L. are doing their best to promote the games image outside of the heartlands.

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I assume it excludes Green as he would surely be classed as a connected party ? A large part of it will be players contract money - any who signed 2 or 3 year deals their full contract value will be included. I remember when Workington went into admin when we were relegated from SL in 1996 our debt was quoted as £1.1m but about £750k of that was player contract future values rather than immediately owed money.

Thanks, and makes sense, yes.  From what we understood was the debt HMRC was claiming, and from an understanding of the otehr costs - and likely scope for amounts not being paid - there can surely have been no way an amount of £1.4m could have arisen, IMO.

 

Now IF a big chunk of that is players contract money, and IF some NEWCO was to take on said players under TUPE, then that might reduce the remaining creditors down to much more manageable proportions?  And, for those players who have already jumped, presumably they have already found new clubs and deals?  In which case, they will have taken the steps anyone is required anyway to take, to seek to mitigate their loss, so any claims from THEM would be far lower?

 

OK, and yes, what was that about drowning men and straws...?


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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Nor is it much better to be haggling over who gets the coffin when we've buried the deceased.

 

 

This is not about Toronto and will only bring the worst in people if they're put into a balance with the Bulls.

 

This is about the loss to our sport, the Bulls as a club and mostly their fans.


“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”    

 

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I just don't see the reason to panic. Today had to happen for serous bidders to have a chance of moving the club forward.

It really isn't a farcical outcome for the club to remain in the championship where their demise is solely the fault of the greed of Green.

Either there is a rich white knight ready to emerge in which case of course they can get a competitive side together or there isn't in which case they were always doomed.

Of course if nothing happens in the next week then the game's in trouble but I am certainly prepared to wait and see.

Am v hopeful - though I may be in the minority.

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Adey,Why am I not surprised on the £4 million pounds owing to the H.M.R.C. and why did the R.L.F not pick up on previous owners and cohorts who were well documented on Companies Websites.If I could quite easily read them surely the powers that be could and indeed should have.Unfortunately Adey I think this is only the tip of the iceberg.I am sure several other clubs are trading way above their means and it will not be long before those particular pigeons come home to roost.A sad,sad day for our beloved Rugby League.

...and, to add to the pot, how about this little gem from the statement from the administrators?

 

"...There was fundamental uncertainty over a series of topics, including the quality of the management information available."

 

I know in the past, when I have been doing any kind of due dilligence, I have used those sort of words when there were limited or no management accounts or reports, and (often) proper books of account had not been kept. The latter being a criminal offence, although very rarely prosecuted. Absent any further detail, though, we can only guess what it might mean in this particular case.


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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Toronto have done sod all yet for rugby league... leave them b...

Bradford hopefully can see this season out...

Technically Bradford don't exist anymore but Toronto do. That in itself says Toronto are more ready

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I just don't see the reason to panic. Today had to happen for serous bidders to have a chance of moving the club forward.

It really isn't a farcical outcome for the club to remain in the championship where their demise is solely the fault of the greed of Green.

Either there is a rich white knight ready to emerge in which case of course they can get a competitive side together or there isn't in which case they were always doomed.

Of course if nothing happens in the next week then the game's in trouble but I am certainly prepared to wait and see.

Am v hopeful - though I may be in the minority.

I don't think you are in the minority mate. When this all settles Bradford will come again, 12 point deductions or not. Good academy team as well. Just hope they can hang on, somehow to Rohan Smith.

Interesting to read the administrators (appointed by Green) statement Adey kindly repeated on 'quality of management material available'. Who would be in Greens shoes right now?

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Sorry to be a misery but what the Bulls had even up to yesterday is possibly irrelevant. All players can leave, as can the staff. That means starting from scratch, albeit with a possible few connections that might help. Fans aren't going to just automatically turn up...this 'Bradford will be OK' optimism is not a given at all.

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I don't think you are in the minority mate. When this all settles Bradford will come again, 12 point deductions or not. Good academy team as well. Just hope they can hang on, somehow to Rohan Smith.

 

Except Smith, academy and everyone else have just been sacked.

 

Unless ANO steps in within the next very few days - and more like hours - they will all have been lost.  Time for "settling down" is not on anyone's side, and is absolutely of the essence now.


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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I have a feeling that a deal has already been done between one of the bidders and the RFL.


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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I'm another one in the League 1 camp. Maybe even in 2018.

 

As for the missing Championship spot. I'd have put in something like a reserves side, either Wigan or NW combined.

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Except Smith, academy and everyone else have just been sacked.

Unless ANO steps in within the next very few days - and more like hours - they will all have been lost. Time for "settling down" is not on anyone's side, and is absolutely of the essence now.

Exactly this.

I don't know how people see this as a good thing. Everything has gone. Anyone starting a new club is starting from scratch in every regard. The only things that will be left are whatever they buy from the liquidators and any coaching staff and players not signed up by other clubs. There are no sponsors, no ground, not even any kit to play in.

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I am glad that Bradford survived but what really annoys me is how they have been seen as a special case.

When my team Oldham went into liquidation, there wasn't any support from the RL we just had to battle on alone in the third tier and work our way back - something we are still doing.

All the best to Bradford but the RL must sort out the shambles they are before Rugby League is no more.

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Everyone who has had a hand in the Bulls over the last 5 years has had to carry over debt they couldn't cope with

 

Liquidation means the Bulls can be picked up for peanuts - intellectual property has a value - and will carry on - an bidder now has no debt and I would suggest they will be willing to buy up whats left and get the ball rolling again

 

A lot of potential without historic debt

 

Wouldn't be surprised to see a decent bidder now as the RFL and a bidder together could get a fair bit of development done at Bradford and get some cash rolling in from that

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I am glad that Bradford survived 

 

They haven't - long way to go before anyone can say that

Edited by Amber Avenger

SQL Honours

Play off mini league winner - 2002. Bronze Medalist - 2003. Big Split Group Winner - 2006. Minor Stupidship - 2005, 2006. Cup Silver Medalist - 2008, 2009

CHAMPION - 2005, 2009, 2010

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I am glad that Bradford survived but what really annoys me is how they have been seen as a special case.

When my team Oldham went into liquidation, there wasn't any support from the RL we just had to battle on alone in the third tier and work our way back - something we are still doing.

All the best to Bradford but the RL must sort out the shambles they are before Rugby League is no more.

Rugby League can afford to lose Oldham, it can't afford to lose Bradford. I'm sorry that that's the case, I wish it wasn't. I wish all clubs were equally important but they aren't. That's reality.

Bradford Bulls in the Super League are 10,000+ crowds and the potential to really compete at the top (if they stop being owned by idiots). Oldham, Keighley, Dewsbury and any others of the like are never going to be that.

Again... I wish it wasn't the case but it is the reality.

Edit - I wish no ill harm to any of the clubs I mentioned. I wish them all the best.

Edited by kapow

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Everyone who has had a hand in the Bulls over the last 5 years has had to carry over debt they couldn't cope with

 

Khan and Green both acquired the club (or, more correctly, its assets and going concern) free of debt.

 

The damage was done by a combination of the conditions placed on them or the club, and - and primarily - their own custodianships.

Edited by Adeybull

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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I am glad that Bradford survived

Except they have not.  The club has just gone down with a terminal case of "dead".


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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Entirely left field I know, but I have been curious to Mrs Koukashs apparent lack of interest this time around.

One of the several reasons in my head was the knowledge that any money paid while in admin would be going to Green (which I can't imagine they would have been happy with)

Iirc Mrs K's bid last time fell short of others on price but she also promised an immediate cash injection of £1m into the club.

Not everyone's cup of tea I know, but could a new Koukash deal for a new club, with the immediate cash injection ( allowing the quick signing of new contracts for players and staff) and possible longer term Dr K developing Ordsall not be the type of thing the Bulls exactly need right now?

 

 

I think having watched Marwan pour £5 mill into Salford she has taken a step back.  The Docs horse string numbered 100+ but now only 20 or so/

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