Any domestic plans for Scotland

[MatthewWoody]

There was a small league they got going but the interest was not sustained, Aberdeen were the last club standing who launched their season appealing for English clubs to go up and play friendlies. 

 

 

What "interest" has been generated in Scotland by two big losses suffered by a heritage side calling itself Scotland??

 

The move to develop Scotland RL has already come and sadly gone. You may recall we had the Magic Weekend there

Ehm ehm ehm...

I wonder how much interested a local homegrown side losing all matches 200-0 would have generated. 

 

We must be realist and understand we can't have an International calendar with games that are close and worth to watch without those "heritage players".

[damp squib]

Ehm ehm ehm...

I wonder how much interested a local homegrown side losing all matches 200-0 would have generated. 

 

We must be realist and understand we can't have an International calendar with games that are close and worth to watch without those "heritage players".

 

We're not talking about the World Cup we're talking about the 4 Nations. There is one additional place available in that competition and we have two homegrown NH teams who could have taken part and provided a similar level of competition that Scotland did for their first two games.

 

Your argument only holds up for the WC where we genuinely need heritage teams to make up the numbers and where there are enough places so that competitive homegrown teams don't miss out.

[MatthewWoody]

We're not talking about the World Cup we're talking about the 4 Nations. There is one additional place available in that competition and we have two homegrown NH teams who could have taken part and provided a similar level of competition that Scotland did for their first two games.

 

Your argument only holds up for the WC where we genuinely need heritage teams to make up the numbers and where there are enough places so that competitive homegrown teams don't miss out.

My comment is on Scotland, not on Wales or France. 

This "play the locals and people will magically come to see matches" is a common place, imho. 

On France and Wales (if I'm right you're referring to them) well ok, but it also could be said on PNG instead of Samoa in last 4N. 

[damp squib]

My comment is on Scotland, not on Wales or France. 

This "play the locals and people will magically come to see matches" is a common place, imho. 

On France and Wales (if I'm right you're referring to them) well ok, but it also could be said on PNG instead of Samoa in last 4N. 

 

I'm not arguing that Scotland should have fielded domestic players in this 4 Nations, I'm arguing that they shouldn't have been there at all.

 

Yes I am referring to Wales and France and I agree that the same criticism should apply to the southern hemisphere. In a SH competition with one available place PNG should always get priority because their participation would benefit the the country and the sport far more than any of the heritage teams.

[MatthewWoody]

I'm not arguing that Scotland should have fielded domestic players in this 4 Nations, I'm arguing that they shouldn't have been there at all.

 

Yes I am referring to Wales and France and I agree that the same criticism should apply to the southern hemisphere. In a SH competition with one available place PNG should always get priority because their participation would benefit the the country and the sport far more than any of the heritage teams.

But your who could have taken part and provided a similar level of competition that Scotland did for their first two games. comment doesn't apply to PNG, to are by miles less strong than Fiji or Samoa (with heritage players in). 

To be frank, I'd say well done to the Aussies for sending year by year their PM XIII to play PNG and help the game stay strong there with their presence and involvement. 

England should do the same in Wales and France, also, but for some reason don't...

 

[The Parksider]

 

This "play the locals and people will magically come to see matches" is a common place, imho. 

 

 

I've not advocated playing the locals because if you look at Scotlands recent history there no locals playing any more as the open age league collapsed.

 

I've accepted a heritage Scotland won the right to make up the numbers, and accepted the great achievement of these lads, but like Squib I believe that fourth place should go to France.

 

Why not compare and contrast what you can find on the Scotland RL website, against the recent development of Catalans U23's and the impending season of Toulouse chasing Superleague.

 

If the RFL had had the proverbials to add Toulouse 20 years ago to SL when they very nearly were selected before the Paris nonsense there would be no Scotland in the 4 Nations today.

[MatthewWoody]

But I like the 4 Nations as an "open" tournament and, for example, I believe in RU the indifference and passiveness about making new teams come have stopped the game in the likes of Georgia etc. 

As I said in another post, maybe a 5 Nations tournament (with one place guaranteed to the best teams of homegrown in Europe) would work better. 

Although France, if they picked and played their best XIII, I think should have qualified over Scotland (heritage or not). 

[londonrlfan]

I've not advocated playing the locals because if you look at Scotlands recent history there no locals playing any more as the open age league collapsed.

 

I've accepted a heritage Scotland won the right to make up the numbers, and accepted the great achievement of these lads, but like Squib I believe that fourth place should go to France.

 

Why not compare and contrast what you can find on the Scotland RL website, against the recent development of Catalans U23's and the impending season of Toulouse chasing Superleague.

 

If the RFL had had the proverbials to add Toulouse 20 years ago to SL when they very nearly were selected before the Paris nonsense there would be no Scotland in the 4 Nations today.

France should have won the European Cup then, instead of being lazy and pulling out of the squad. Wales have just as much right as France and unlike France, they won a European Cup. Hopefully Toulouse coming into SL will improve the France team.

[damp squib]

But your who could have taken part and provided a similar level of competition that Scotland did for their first two games. comment doesn't apply to PNG, to are by miles less strong than Fiji or Samoa (with heritage players in). 

To be frank, I'd say well done to the Aussies for sending year by year their PM XIII to play PNG and help the game stay strong there with their presence and involvement. 

England should do the same in Wales and France, also, but for some reason don't...

 

That's a bit unfair, a full strength PNG are a formidable team and I don't think they would be embarrassed by any of the big 3. I could even see the potential for an upset against England. Yes a heritage Samoa side is stronger but not nearly as much as you say and not enough to justify their inclusion ahead of PNG.

[damp squib]

But I like the 4 Nations as an "open" tournament and, fox example, I believe in RU the indifference and passiveness about making new teams come have stopped the game in the likes of Georgia etc. 

As I said in another post, maybe a 5 Nations tournament (with one place guaranteed to the best teams of homegrown in Europe) would work better. 

Although France, if they picked and played their best XIII, I think should have qualified over Scotland (heritage or not). 

 

How does this fit with your claims to want us to be realistic about where international RL is? The fact is that there are three genuine RL playing nations in the NH that can compete to a reasonable international level - England, France and Wales. By including Italy, Ireland and Scotland we are giving a false impression of the strength of the game. That by itself doesn't bother me, but it does bother me when it negatively affects the development of real RL playing countries.

 

France's performances against Scotland are irrelevant. The point is that Scotland is a made up team so how well France do against them is entirely dependent on how many Aussies with a Scottish grandparent decide they fancy a go at international RL that year.

 

Edit: One more question - if the competition should be open, why don't England, Australia and NZ have to qualify?

[MatthewWoody]

How does this fit with your claims to want us to be realistic about where international RL is? The fact is that there are three genuine RL playing nations in the NH that can compete to a reasonable international level - England, France and Wales. By including Italy, Ireland and Scotland we are giving a false impression of the strength of the game. That by itself doesn't bother me, but it does bother me when it negatively affects the development of real RL playing countries.

 

France's performances against Scotland are irrelevant. The point is that Scotland is a made up team so how well France do against them is entirely dependent on how many Aussies with a Scottish grandparent decide they fancy a go at international RL that year.

 

Edit: One more question - if the competition should be open, why don't England, Australia and NZ have to qualify?

I was not talking about local Georgia development etc. Georgia have pro players playing in the Top 14...

 

I was referring to the idea of having an open tournament giving everybody the chance to shine and to play at the highest level. 

 

They (RU) can do it with local player, we can't (and this when you need to be realistic about the game).

 

The problem is not that Scotland are playing an heritage team (I repeat: you'd have only 5 or 6 teams all over the world and not one of them would beat the big 3), but that - maybe - they're doing it without working locally to change this status quo. 

 

Although in another thread I showed how some reports from inside could change the way the likes of Scotland, Italy etc. are seen. 

 

Things aren't easy as people seems to see them here. 

Also, considering their efford, commitment and passion, I believe the "how many Aussies with a Scottish grandparent decide they fancy a go at international RL that year." is very desrespectful.

 

I can assure I heard Aussie born people with tears in their eyes when talking about their roots.

 

Can't see why this is different from the Scots. 

 

"By including Italy, Ireland and Scotland we are giving a false impression of the strength of the game. That by itself doesn't bother me, but it does bother me when it negatively affects the development of real RL playing countries." 

This is desrespectful, too. How do you know we are a not a "real" RL playing countries? What do you know about how difficult is to develope this code, in a country when RU people boycott RL, don't leave their players play league as soon as they become pro, etc.? 

 

The International scene would by by far less watchable and enjoyable withouth the heritage players you disrespect, while France, Wales and PNG are - imho, but World Cup results talk - less closer to the big 3 than you think. 

[MatthewWoody]

That's a bit unfair, a full strength PNG are a formidable team and I don't think they would be embarrassed by any of the big 3. I could even see the potential for an upset against England. Yes a heritage Samoa side is stronger but not nearly as much as you say and not enough to justify their inclusion ahead of PNG.

Last RLWC talked...

[damp squib]

I was not talking about local Georgia development etc. Georgia have pro players playing in the Top 14...

 

I was referring to the idea of having an open tournament giving everybody the chance to shine and to play at the highest level. 

 

1) They (RU) can do it with local player, we can't (and this when you need to be realistic about the game).

 

The problem is not that Scotland are playing an heritage team (I repeat: you'd have only 5 or 6 teams all over the world and not one of them would beat the big 3), but that - maybe - they're doing it without working locally to change this status quo. 

 

2) Although in another thread I showed how some reports from inside could change the way the likes of Scotland, Italy etc. are seen. 

 

Things aren't easy as people seems to see them here. 

3) Also, considering their efford, commitment and passion, I believe the "how many Aussies with a Scottish grandparent decide they fancy a go at international RL that year." is very desrespectful.

 

I can assure I heard Aussie born people with tears in their eyes when talking about their roots.

 

Can't see why this is different from the Scots. 

 

"By including Italy, Ireland and Scotland we are giving a false impression of the strength of the game. That by itself doesn't bother me, but it does bother me when it negatively affects the development of real RL playing countries." 

4) This is desrespectful, too. How do you know we are a not a "real" RL playing countries? What do you know about how difficult is to develope this code, in a country when RU people boycott RL, don't leave their players play league as soon as they become pro, etc.? 

 

The International scene would by by far less watchable and enjoyable withouth the heritage players you disrespect, while France, Wales and PNG are - imho, but World Cup results talk - less closer to the big 3 than you think. 

 

1) Exactly, we can't, so why do we insist on trying to match RU? There would still be a competitive element to the qualifying if England, Wales and France competed for two spots in the 4 Nations. Italy, Ireland and Scotland can still compete in the European Championships and World Cups where they would not be blocking Wales and France from competing. For arguments sake, if Slovakia had a large diaspora in New Zealand and hence a very strong RU side made up entirely of NZ born players, but minimal domestic RU, do you think it would be fair for Slovakia to be included in the RU 6 Nations at the expense of Italy? What effect would it have had on RU in Italy if they had not been included in the 6 Nations?

 

2) RL in Italy and Scotland is at such an early stage that even participating the 4 Nations is unlikely to move the needle significantly. There is still far too much ground work to be done. By contrast if France had competed in this years 4 Nations they would have filled stadiums in France and appeared on French television. The resulting exposure could have been channeled to the professional clubs which exist in the country. We as a sport do not have the luxury of forgoing these opportunities.

 

3) I apologise to those players who are genuinely committed, but I do not accept that the likes of Aitken, Coote, Linnett and Douglas, who made this Scottish team competitive, would be any where near Scotland if they were offered a Kangaroos jersey. Aitken and Coote have openly stated this. I am cynical because I have seen so many heritage "Irish" players line up for England once they were given the choice.

 

4) I use the term "real RL playing countries" as short hand for countries which have a significant RL presence, a regular domestic competition, where RL is respected as an independent sport and not an offshoot of RU and where the professional players vital to the future of our game are being produced. I mean absolutely no disrespect to the people who work so hard to promote the game in countries that don't meet those criteria but a distinction has to be made.

[MatthewWoody]

Exactly, we can't, so why do we insist on trying to match RU?

 

And still, you provide an example (the idea of Slovakia heritage etc.) on RU. 

 

Machiavelli would be proud. 

 

To answer your questione, I would have no problem if Slovakia had in NZ a New Zealender-Slovakian unite and proud community as we do have with Italian-Australian (look at what FIRLA does and how they keep working for preserving their dual identity, culturally and in sport), and if they had people developing locally as we do have here. 

 

I repeat: RU can afford to have more genuine squads, because it is most followed, loved and watched all over the world. You can't discuss this and every comparison is unrealistic by itself. 

 

More people care and spend money on our RL (sponsors, donations, support) in Italian-Australian community Down Under than in Italy, when people are RU obsessed (people who follow rugby, obviously). How is that that their passion doesn't count? Doesnt' value? 

 

I already told you imho a 5 N competition with one place guaranteed to "the best homegrown team" like Wales v France would be ok for me. But in my view you need it to be open. 

 

England, NZ and Australia don't have to qualifiy as there is a significant gap between them and the others, as the ranking states. 

 

I prefer having International competition watchable to the ethic full capacity at Avignon. Also because providing France a strong competition (Scotland with heritage players etc.) could increase the level of their team. 

 

We keep saying England don't play enough high level footy...

 

By the way, we could discuss this for ages and still have different opinions.
What I ask you and some other user, is to be more respectful to the family roots of the players and staff members involved, while talking about fake teams, made up teams, Australians not Italian, English not Scotland people etc. because it's not so easy and it very summary. 

 

If Scotland don't use in the next 4-6 years the money got from their 4N and WC partecipation in the local sport, well' that's a problem.

[deluded pom?]

http://www.loverugbyleague.com/news_24147-mccormack-a-domestic-league-is-key-for-development.html

[advantageous21]

It's hard to find that many positives in Scotland drawing to New Zealand ....

Does nothing for the country , when most players would choose another country before Scotland

France or Wales should be in the 4 nations ,if we are trying to produce another dominant country , with players Actuslly born or raised in that country

Didn't like seeing pat Richards turn out for Ireland or Damian blanch.. both would walk to Australia from Ireland ,to wear thr green and gold tops of Australia rl

Same goes with most that Scottish team

Scotland rl picked a strong team from other countries to play for them... what's Scottish about that???

[Oxford]

It's hard to find that many positives in Scotland drawing to New Zealand ....

Does nothing for the country , when most players would choose another country before Scotland

France or Wales should be in the 4 nations ,if we are trying to produce another dominant country , with players Actuslly born or raised in that country

Didn't like seeing pat Richards turn out for Ireland or Damian blanch.. both would walk to Australia from Ireland ,to wear thr green and gold tops of Australia rl

Same goes with most that Scottish team

Scotland rl picked a strong team from other countries to play for them... what's Scottish about that???

I love the way you've become a Parky type clone bringing up your pet hates on other threads, thanks for making me laugh.

 

I do hope something positive happens for the game in Scotland and kick starts the whole thing. I also hope that it can all be traced back to the passion of the Scottish team and the NZ result!   

[advantageous21]

I'm all for expanding our game ... but Scotland isn't a country that plays rl

I hope u try supporting an international team that brings through the right values for thr country and doesn't put players in , who visited that country once in their lifetime

Let's face it, Scotland game v kiwis was great, but will do sod all for Scotland

So wish all you want

[Oxford]

I'm all for expanding our game ... but Scotland isn't a country that plays rl

I hope u try supporting an international team that brings through the right values for thr country and doesn't put players in , who visited that country once in their lifetime

Let's face it, Scotland game v kiwis was great, but will do sod all for Scotland

So wish all you want

Is it just the last word you need?

 

I don't know if the Scotland v Kiwi game will do any good for the Scottish RL but neither do you. I think it's much better to be positive and productive about the situation because the alternatives have never done anything to help anyone in the whole of recorded history

[londonrlfan]

http://www.loverugbyleague.com/news_24147-mccormack-a-domestic-league-is-key-for-development.html

"The key is... we start developing a few more people like David Scott." Why did he get zero game time then in the Four Nations?

[advantageous21]

Neither does talking rubbish ... but doesn't stop you

Like I said I want international rugby league to progress

To me that isn't profession at all

Neither will Scottish fans come and support them

Oxford ur after an argument I'm not...

Way I see it , that's all

[John Drake]

Just another quick plug for the new issue of Rugby League World Magazine, out on Fri 25th Nov, which will hopefully answer many of the questions being posed here about what's happening on the ground in Scotland on the back of the Four Nations. We've increased the feature from six to eight pages as there's a lot to cover, and it includes contributions from Keith Hogg from the Scotland Rugby League Board, Carrie Ann Downes the new Scotland RL Development Officer, Craig Parslow from the Aberdeen Warriors club, player Dave Scott and Danny Kazandjian of the RLEF.

[Worky]

Bit of randomness but I was touch judge for Edinburgh Eagles v Ayrshire Storm down at Corstorphine in 2012.

One of the hottest days of the year and lots of running from behind the sticks to past the half way line to restart as Eagles won 70 v 4!

 

When I first moved up to Scotland in 2009 there was talk that Eagles were wanting to join Championship 1. If I remember correctly it was discouraged by the SRL as they would have taken all the best talent from the domestic comp resulting a badly weakened league.

 

My opinion is that they would have been close to competitive on the field. Ex-Townie Paddy Coupar was an Eagle but I don't think he played that day. 

They would have needed somewhere to play though as Corstophine and latterly Peffermill Road are just fields with a club house nearby. 

[DoubleD]

"The key is... we start developing a few more people like David Scott." Why did he get zero game time then in the Four Nations?

Because sadly he's not as good as Lewis Tierney or Lachlan Coote

[Oxford]

Neither does talking rubbish ... but doesn't stop you     ooooooooooooh!

Like I said I want international rugby league to progress

To me that isn't profession at all

Neither will Scottish fans come and support them

Oxford ur after an argument I'm not...

Way I see it , that's all                                                                           ONLY JOKING BTW!

And there we have the difference, I'm after a debate not an argument and notice the difference in tone between your replies and mine.

 

RL needs to play every trick it can to make progress happen, there are very good reasons for this some of which we are not allowed to discuss here and others where people rely on predisposed ideas about what should count and what shouldn't, and what will make development happen and what won't.

 

Your point about bring professional is a bit loose and I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

 

There is nothing wrong with you seeing it the way you want to but you then have to accept that not everyone will agree.