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Replacing CLS

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43 minutes ago, Defender1 said:

Funny when we competed with Union we had

Last year of Yorkshire Combination at 16-17-18 there were 110+ teams

Yorkshire Junior 16 and 17/18 combined now 60 a reduction of 45%

I was told Hull Junior League has its least registrations for 30 years

Pennine had over 100 teams 

Yorkshire Men's League quoted they had their best number of entrants 70 a reduction of 30%

That 70 includes 10 Hull clubs who never played in the Pennine, and how many new teams?

Last week YML advertised 35 matches 27 results meaning 54 teams, virtually no merit games

The North West is doing no better, Cumbria except its NCL teams is on its ######

A lot of teams playing April/May to August meaning  we are even playing less

Every League has less teams meaning less participation, the whole point of the switch

The weather is better but just as many games are postponed if not more for other reasons

Please look at the YJ website under postponements I would say over 50% of the games called off "Lack of players"

The weather is better but less people attend games 

Being negative or just pointing out the facts, sure you will decide

 Moorends look like they could be (holding my breath) running two teams this coming traditional season if all the players who have promised and the people making enquiries bear fruit, the 2nd team may be placed in the 11 aside league for the first season to take a little pressure off of the coaches and management, like they say the hardest call to make as a secretary is the one saying "We aren't coming"


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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Low participation numbers are not just rugby league, football, cricket & athletics all have the same problem. Probably other sports also, but know for sure with those mentioned. No one wants to commit for a period of time, many just want to play when it suits them, and expect a game when available. Meaning a regular misses out. They've all done surveys, but no answers to falling numbers. A lot of "footballers" can play 5 aside on any night they wish, poor substitute for the real thing. 

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10 hours ago, Defender1 said:

Funny when we competed with Union we had...

Being negative or just pointing out the facts, sure you will decide

"Doesn't feel like a prominent issue for Southern teams". I never mentioned whether it was a good idea for Yorkshire, or North West, or Cumbria, or Hull.

Given the title of this thread is "Replacing CLS", it isn't relevant to discuss the merits of Summer/Winter looking at Yorkshire where rugby league is one of the biggest sports and the vast majority of your playing base doesn't 1) come from a background of rugby union being their first choice sport 2) play rugby union over the Winter already. 

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16 hours ago, Defender1 said:

Funny when we competed with Union we had

Last year of Yorkshire Combination at 16-17-18 there were 110+ teams

Yorkshire Junior 16 and 17/18 combined now 60 a reduction of 45%

I was told Hull Junior League has its least registrations for 30 years

Pennine had over 100 teams 

Yorkshire Men's League quoted they had their best number of entrants 70 a reduction of 30%

That 70 includes 10 Hull clubs who never played in the Pennine, and how many new teams?

Last week YML advertised 35 matches 27 results meaning 54 teams, virtually no merit games

The North West is doing no better, Cumbria except its NCL teams is on its ######

A lot of teams playing April/May to August meaning  we are even playing less

Every League has less teams meaning less participation, the whole point of the switch

The weather is better but just as many games are postponed if not more for other reasons

Please look at the YJ website under postponements I would say over 50% of the games called off "Lack of players"

The weather is better but less people attend games 

Being negative or just pointing out the facts, sure you will decide

YML still claiming teams that aren't playing in the summer anymore, I've a feeling Toll Bar will be back to winter soon as well, they have gone from two teams full of their own players in the winter to one in the summer that, they are having to phone round to get players to fill a team sheet, If I was involved I'd be looking at skipping right back especially as they've got a clubhouse to run.

Edited by Marauder

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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As someone else said its not just rugby who has falling numbers football is a prime example in my local area they had 5 divisions on a satday and 9/10 on a sunday they now have 1 on a satday and 3/4 on a sunday and juniors are down!

Each club have to do what suits them just because winter/summer is right for club doesnt mean its right for everyone.

Im 100% sure that if every rugby league club junior and open age moved back to winter the number would still be down!

I prefer watchi g summer rugby with a cold pint buts thats just my opinion

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The problems that most clubs seem to be having is not so much a winter/summer issue, its more a change in peoples social habits and how they perceive sport in general.

The majority of players these days do not see the sport as a be-all and end-all to what they do. Many players see sport as something they do but not something they want to do every weekend. There are a myriad of other things that people can do on a Saturday from playing sport to watching live events on Sky (including RL when the pro game clashes with the community game), going abroad for stag do's and cheap weekends, going to the many music festivals, visiting family around the country, weekends away etc etc not to mention injuries!!

There are so many competing things to do and many players will slot rugby in around all of these things (that is not a criticism, its just a reality) but will not always make it a priority.

The result is teams these days need a much bigger squad of players to fulfill a full season of fixtures and those do not will struggle to complete the full season.

At my club, Nottingham Outlaws I see this pattern on a regular basis. After 4 league games this season we have used 33 players and only 4 have played in every game.

I do not think this phenomenon is limited to rugby league, I hear the same story locally from rugby union and football teams. 

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I did not not even mention the dreaded season quote all I did was reply to the " would be to make clubs compete with union"

The frustration to me is, we have tried to expand the game out of the heartlands for years, as I have said before this is no disrespect to the hard working volunteers who struggle to keep their club afloat and players on the pitch

  • My club played at Wath Brow on Saturday £1100 for a coach, and we take subs off the players
  • So called semi pro clubs who are not much better than the top amateur clubs get a travel grant, and can claim expenses ie meals, their players get a payment (I know not a lot) 
  • Semi pro clubs get Central Funds, most amateur clubs hope their supporters have deep pockets, could the clubs SP Clubs survive without the funding? Amateur clubs do and they get nothing
  • There were more fans attending at Wath Brow than at Oxford, Hemel, All Golds and its a village
  • Wath have a thriving junior section
  • Even the CLS clubs were funded to a degree

People always mention the sports that are down with participation and there are some but there are also a lot who have stood still and lets ask, Boxing, Rugby Union, Athletics, Triathlon, Netball what they are doing right (Please see sports England) as they have shown an increase, and two of those are contact sports as can be Netball so that old chestnut cannot be used.

The RFL keep saying they want to increase standards, what did David Gent quote "The strong will survive" unfortunately he meant the amateur clubs, and still thought he would be in a job but with the players playing the game 3 professional leagues is too much I would go to 2, supported by the NCL, a lot of players would then end up back at their amateur clubs, hopefully enabling them to put out 2 teams again, if teams are serious ex CLS or league 1 they could apply for the NCL, even have a play off for promotion and relegation to get into the NCL from the regions, even introduce a reserve league something everyone is calling for, would funding be better spent here than out of the heartlands that realistically bring little to the game, do some of the Championship dual register players to League 1 clubs to give their players games so as to not run a reserve team, it is also a way clubs are getting around the salary cap, Hull admitted they could not bring Hadley, Rawsthorne, Naughton back to the club when they had injuries as these players were out on a season long loan so as to keep under the salary cap

A minority sport like ice hockey has tried to expand in the past but now seems to invest in its core and survives with its core fans

Section A3 - Finance final pdf (1).pdf

Edited by Defender1

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 I think union is blossoming at top level but lower down id say its struggling more than league.

Clubs in my area used to field 4 teams now struggle to get 1!

Theres also alot thats gone completely same as league.

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9 minutes ago, topcentre21 said:

 I think union is blossoming at top level but lower down id say its struggling more than league.

Clubs in my area used to field 4 teams now struggle to get 1!

Theres also alot thats gone completely same as league.

I would not disagree, possibly regional issues, it is not what it was in Hull, perhaps their figures are fudged like RL

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6 hours ago, topcentre21 said:

Marauder have bentley got afew of tollbar lads because theyve been getting 2 sides out ive noticed?

No mate, Toll Bar and Bentley don't get on at all, I couldn't see their players switching clubs, Bentley have picked up a few union lads and youngsters from a junior side they had a couple of years ago. Toll Bar are suffering, The Moorends players who helped them climb the leagues haven't gone back in numbers this year (one played last week) and they've lost their coach (Young family & to much to do in the summer) Pete Green back to Doncaster a couple each to Hemel and York, their injury list is pretty awful as well.

Bentley have moved out of Wheatley Hills union club and play about a mile from Toll Bar as the crow flies.

 

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Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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11 hours ago, topcentre21 said:

 I think union is blossoming at top level but lower down id say its struggling more than league.

Clubs in my area used to field 4 teams now struggle to get 1!

Theres also alot thats gone completely same as league.

They have countered the losses in mens with big increases in juniors, women and casual participation variants like touch rugby.  

Athletics and Triathlon have also embraced the 'casual' participation element with park run and sprint triathlons.  

Some on these boards think spending money on tag or touch rugby league is a waste of time and money.  


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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Strangely, the only game my club was massively oversubscribed for this season so far was a midweek game.

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If a midweek game was over subscribed, perhaps this the answer, a few midweek games. Were you home or away? Might be different if the game was an hour away though. Playing local derbies midweek might work. 

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On 16/05/2017 at 9:25 PM, Defender1 said:

A minority sport like ice hockey has tried to expand in the past but now seems to invest in its core and survives with its core fans

Section A3 - Finance final pdf (1).pdf

Without expansion to the likes of Sheffield, Cardiff and Belfast Ice Hockey in the UK would be in deep trouble now.  Had Ice Hockey or Speedway depended on their traditional heartlands they wouldn't be struggling now they would be as good as dead.  British Baseball is a pretty good example of what happens when you try to entrench in your heartlands and don't bother about making converts.

Here the local football and cricket leagues are struggling with a clear downturn in participation numbers.  About the only sport in this country showing growth from a meaningful base is Basketball.  So get a base in American Urban culture and all Rugby League's problems will be solved!

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8 hours ago, Norfolk said:

Without expansion to the likes of Sheffield, Cardiff and Belfast Ice Hockey in the UK would be in deep trouble now.  Had Ice Hockey or Speedway depended on their traditional heartlands they wouldn't be struggling now they would be as good as dead.  British Baseball is a pretty good example of what happens when you try to entrench in your heartlands and don't bother about making converts.

Here the local football and cricket leagues are struggling with a clear downturn in participation numbers.  About the only sport in this country showing growth from a meaningful base is Basketball.  So get a base in American Urban culture and all Rugby League's problems will be solved!

I was using Ice Hockey as an example and I would not disagree.

IMO we had a strong base, but by trying to expand all we have done is dilute the small amount of money we have, a lot of amateur players have stepped up leaving their clubs short and diluting the standard.  What has been achieved? has the game grown with the investment? IMO no real increase in participation, but good luck to the people who are trying to expand our the game

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For those that remember the competing CLS plans from last year, the Nottingham Plan is back on the table for 2018, which was two super-conferences covering three of the six "Southern" regions each.

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8 hours ago, bbfaz said:

For those that remember the competing CLS plans from last year, the Nottingham Plan is back on the table for 2018, which was two super-conferences covering three of the six "Southern" regions each.

Re the above, just been told by a little bird that the RFL have had a meeting (today I think) about a complete reshuffle of the amateur game outside of the 'heartlands' for the 2018 season. Anyone heard anything?

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21 hours ago, Jasper said:

Re the above, just been told by a little bird that the RFL have had a meeting (today I think) about a complete reshuffle of the amateur game outside of the 'heartlands' for the 2018 season. Anyone heard anything?

I think this is much needed. E.g. In the midlands if you could get Northampton, Leicester and Coventry Dragons in a league with the better London teams then you could add Leamington and hopefully Telford to the midlands division one to have an eight team league 

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Essentially, Jasper, they're just trying to create a new, larger CLS under a different name.  This has been the plan for as long as I've been involved in RL.  Best of Wales/West/South West into a Western Premier, best of London/East/Midlands into an Eastern Premier.  8-10 in each.  Then the leagues below that would formally "feed" into those leagues, though it's doubtful you could have promotion and relegation between the two, especially given they're looking for a longer season.

As I said when this was discussed before, if you took Chargers, Wests and Hammersmith (perhaps Eastern, though they're struggling this year), essentially you leave behind Skolars A, Surrey and Richmond.  You'd then have the keen teams from the league below to fill in, maybe even Chargers or Wests A.  It would be a beefed-up combination of the South East Regional League and London Division One (from 2014), all in one league.  It would be much more winnable, that's for sure.

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There are rumours about the RFL dropping some League 1 clubs into a new development league. I wonder if clubs like London Chargers and West Wales would opt for that or the new regionalised CLS?

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13 hours ago, bbfaz said:

Essentially, Jasper, they're just trying to create a new, larger CLS under a different name.  This has been the plan for as long as I've been involved in RL.  Best of Wales/West/South West into a Western Premier, best of London/East/Midlands into an Eastern Premier.  8-10 in each.  Then the leagues below that would formally "feed" into those leagues, though it's doubtful you could have promotion and relegation between the two, especially given they're looking for a longer season.

As I said when this was discussed before, if you took Chargers, Wests and Hammersmith (perhaps Eastern, though they're struggling this year), essentially you leave behind Skolars A, Surrey and Richmond.  You'd then have the keen teams from the league below to fill in, maybe even Chargers or Wests A.  It would be a beefed-up combination of the South East Regional League and London Division One (from 2014), all in one league.  It would be much more winnable, that's for sure.

Thanks for that bbf, also just came across this,  might be of interest to some -

New Southern Rugby League Competition set to launch in 2018

http://www.rugby-league.com/article/40143/new-southern-rugby-league-competition-set-to-launch-in-

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In my opinion, it'll be a bigger struggle to find 8 teams to fill the Western Division than finding 8 to fill the Eastern, which I guess is why they've said this structure will not be filled immediately.

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7 hours ago, bowes said:

There are rumours about the RFL dropping some League 1 clubs into a new development league. I wonder if clubs like London Chargers and West Wales would opt for that or the new regionalised CLS?

I'd like to know how someone living down South hears these rumours before anyone living on the door step, as anyone actually met you Bowesy  :) or are you Nosy Parkers love child ?


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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Looks like the plan for next season is pretty much as discussed on this forum. Well done lads, or did they get it from us. So could be CLE & CLW? Maybe progression to NCL if clubs are up to it with facilities etc.

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