Your England 24 man squad and starting 17

[GaryO]

2 hours ago, Jim Prendle said:

I'm not sure whether you are being sarcastic, or not, but I'll answer anyway.

I don't care if the players picked are proven internationals or not, but if proven internationals are fit, and in form, I would have them above unproven newcomers. That's not to say there is no place for new blood in a team, but I also don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to pack an international team with newcomers, and to expect them to perform immediately.

For instance, I have always thought that Watkins has all the attributes to be a top class international centre, but he very rarely displays them at international level. I would be more than happy to see Gildart given a chance instead of him because Gildart is in form, is of an age and experience that he is unlikely to be overawed by the World Cup, is quick, and defends well.

On the other hand, Hardaker is not a newcomer to the international scene, but has displayed facets in his character that, to me, indicate that he may be unsuitable to the international game. Some players just can't handle being in an environment where they are not top dog, and go off the rails. There have been numerous examples of this over the years, Gareth Hock being another one. Absolutely devastating on his day, and possibly the best English running second row forward of the last 10 years, but put him in the international setup, and it scrambles his brain.

The England team needs to be a combination of proven internationals in good form, and newcomers whose recent performances dictate that they cannot be ignored. Proven Internationals not in form should be excluded.

Jim i was not being sarcastic just the opposite I was agreeing with you in your first post of the assessment of certain players you mention, but the point I make is totally relevant, just how do players have the opportunity to gain the expierience that some maintain they need if having prooved themselves they are continually overlooked, I would agree with you re Watkins at international level has all the promise but continually fails to deliver.

[GaryO]

11 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

No they are in my 17 like all my other selections based on a combination of form,experience,fitness,quality,combinations and not on who has played well up to now.

I rest my case, your honor.

[Davo5]

20 minutes ago, GaryO said:

I rest my case, your honor.

Let's wait and see,but I'd take a team built on a well rounded selection criteria to out perform one based on yours.

[GaryO]

1 minute ago, Davo5 said:

Let's wait and see,but I'd take a team built on a well rounded selection criteria to out perform one based on yours.

And i totally agree with you that is what will happen your system will prevail, but in my defence Davo I also said that it is a well trodden path employed by a number of international coaches, non has had the dangly bits of sufficient size and volume to break from the norm, we have continually had players selected on reputation and expierience irrespective of international form in previous games, we all know and do not need reminding the success rate of that system as I said.............absolute bobbins.

I would love to be prooved wrong and we bring the WC back here, and there is no way in the world I would commit to saying blooding new bodies would have any different effect.

Perhaps we should carry on this conversation in early December and I sincerely hope that the occasion does not arise before that time.

[Jim Prendle]

1 hour ago, Saint 1 said:

I'd rather have a top class player in average form than an average player in good form. The top class player can step up when needed. The average player has nowhere to go. 

And Roby, for instance, is a great example of that.

McShane, or Roby? Not even a contest. Roby first, McShane 3rd, with daylight a clear second.

[Moc]

25 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

And Roby, for instance, is a great example of that.

McShane, or Roby? Not even a contest. Roby first, McShane 3rd, with daylight a clear second.

Josh Hodgson first?

[Jim Prendle]

2 minutes ago, Moc said:

Josh Hodgson first?

No. Why would you pick Hodgson first? 

I don't count him as a proven international, and his form this year has been non-existent.

Would you choose Hodgson, and if so, why?

[Moc]

7 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

No. Why would you pick Hodgson first? 

I don't count him as a proven international, and his form this year has been non-existent.

Would you choose Hodgson, and if so, why?

Didnt see his game Vs Sharks this weekend did you?

He's got the far stronger skill set for international rugby imo

He's a proven NRL hooker, which one could argue is even more important/impressive than a proven international

 

[Jim Prendle]

Just now, Moc said:

Didnt see his game Vs Sharks this weekend did you?

He's got the far stronger skill set for international rugby imo

He's a proven NRL hooker, which one could argue is even more important/impressive than a proven international

 

I was away this weekend, so I haven't managed to catch up on my recordings yet. If it was shown on Premier that is.

However, it still won't change my mind on his form this year, he has been woeful, and one game won't convince me that he is up to the task at the minute.

However, the same goes for Roby. I thought he was great in his last game, but he would have to have a few more of those to convince me that he is really back in top form. If he does that, then he is a better option than Hodgson, in my opinion.

[Moc]

Just now, Jim Prendle said:

I was away this weekend, so I haven't managed to catch up on my recordings yet. If it was shown on Premier that is.

However, it still won't change my mind on his form this year, he has been woeful, and one game won't convince me that he is up to the task at the minute.

However, the same goes for Roby. I thought he was great in his last game, but he would have to have a few more of those to convince me that he is really back in top form. If he does that, then he is a better option than Hodgson, in my opinion.

Hodgson (and you could argue the Raiders as a whole) have improved week on week - your argument seem to be based on players with the higher celling - well id argue Hodgson has by far the highest of the lot - if he can regain his NRL form he'll be one of best England players out there

Plus he has the advantage of playing at NRL intensity, sounds like you watch your NRL - therefore must appreciate.

Roby hasn’t really been on form this season, Clarke going backwards, McShane safe but not right choice for me, Houghton doesn’t have the right skill set - Still make me pick Hodgson simply on his ability

[Jim Prendle]

That's your opinion mate, and you are very entitled to it, but just because Roby has never played in the NRL, doesn't make Hodgson a better player.

If Hodgson's form continues to improve, then I wouldn't have a problem with him being selected, but it has to be based on form, not on where he plays his rugby.

[Moc]

3 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

That's your opinion mate, and you are very entitled to it, but just because Roby has never played in the NRL, doesn't make Hodgson a better player.

If Hodgson's form continues to improve, then I wouldn't have a problem with him being selected, but it has to be based on form, not on where he plays his rugby.

Aye I appricate that and I do normally hate the "he's a NRL player therefore must be good" argument but I do believe Hodgson is just the best option - at one point he was the best hooker in NRL - no easy feat

As long as we're playing Widdop 100%

[Jim Prendle]

I won't argue about Widdop, but don't try to convince me about Luke Gale.

[GaryO]

5 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

That's your opinion mate, and you are very entitled to it, but just because Roby has never played in the NRL, doesn't make Hodgson a better player.

If Hodgson's form continues to improve, then I wouldn't have a problem with him being selected, but it has to be based on form, not on where he plays his rugby.

And that statement Jim should also apply in this country, not just now that we have a vested interest with some of our players in the NRL, how many times over the years have we heard "he would be playing for GB/England if he was at Wigan, Saints, Leeds"

[bobbruce]

9 hours ago, Jim Prendle said:

It's very difficult to predict who will be in the mix come squad announcement time, but I will say that the likes of Tomkins and Hodgson, at this stage should be nowhere near the squad for the World Cup.

Tomkins is about 4 games back from nearly two years out, and Hodgson looks nothing like the player that did so well in the NRL last season. Things may change for both of these players in the next couple of months, but unless they set the world on fire in terms of fitness and form, they shouldn't go. In their places, Hardaker and Mcshane should be picked, at the moment. I don't think Hardaker is as intelligent a player as Tomkins, and I don't think McShane is anywhere near Roby when the latter is on top form, but currently the two Cas lads should be in the mix.

The forwards are more worrying for me. Graham looks jaded, and Sam Burgess looks a bit tired as well. They are certainly not playing the explosive game we know they are both capable of. Chris Hill is also a shadow of last season's player.

We really need some guys to step up in the next couple of months or the WC is going to be very uncomfortable for us.

Although Hodgson is not in last years contender for Dally M award form. He hasn't been in particularly poor form still the best starting hooker available to us. Although his assists and try scoring are down on last year what he does do is get a good tempo going for his team. He was also close to being back to last years form this week. If any players are nailed on to start if fit it will be Widdop Hodgson and Whitehead. 

[Jim Prendle]

2 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Although Hodgson is not in last years contender for Dally M award form. He hasn't been in particularly poor form still the best starting hooker available to us. Although his assists and try scoring are down on last year what he does do is get a good tempo going for his team. He was also close to being back to last years form this week. If any players are nailed on to start if fit it will be Widdop Hodgson and Whitehead. 

And is that because they play in the NRL, or is that just a coincidence?

[Moc]

Just now, Jim Prendle said:

And is that because they play in the NRL, or is that just a coincidence?

 

I reckon Ryan Hall is nailed on if that makes a difference....

But seriously Widdop/Hodgson should be there, just the strongest skill set when on form - Whitehead will find he has a bit more competition but I wouldnt be against it

[graveyard johnny]

against Australia

1 larry  2 dolly 3 shaun 4 lamb chop 5 ....................... any other lambs to the slaughter?

seriously though, the slowest oldest inconsistent  most uninspiring choice of squad  we have seen since the jeff grayshon days.

 

 

[Jim Prendle]

If Ryan Hall makes himself available, he will still be getting selected when he is 60. It doesn't seem to matter with some players if they are playing well or not.

[Jim Prendle]

1 minute ago, graveyard johnny said:

against Australia

1 larry  2 dolly 3 shaun 4 lamb chop 5 ....................... any other lambs to the slaughter?

seriously though, the slowest oldest inconsistent  most uninspiring choice of squad  we have seen since the jeff grayshon days.

 

 

Who would you pick?

[graveyard johnny]

1 minute ago, Jim Prendle said:

Who would you pick?

the players just aren't there anymore , not gonna get in to a nostalgia debate about hanley - offiah - Sullivan - sculthorpe - etc but lets be realistic - I worry I wont live to see us ever beat aus again in my life time and that's sad

[graveyard johnny]

7 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

If Ryan Hall makes himself available, he will still be getting selected when he is 60. It doesn't seem to matter with some players if they are playing well or not.

exactly right

[Jim Prendle]

1 minute ago, graveyard johnny said:

the players just aren't there anymore , not gonna get in to a nostalgia debate about hanley - offiah - Sullivan - sculthorpe - etc but lets be realistic - I worry I wont live to see us ever beat aus again in my life time and that's sad

OK, but working on the basis that we can't just give up altogether, who would you pick?

[graveyard johnny]

1 minute ago, Jim Prendle said:

OK, but working on the basis that we can't just give up altogether, who would you pick?

prob pick on form and fitness- whoever is scoring the tries and heading the stats at the time, not players who need late fitness tests and playing on past performances

[MZH]

43 minutes ago, Moc said:

Hodgson (and you could argue the Raiders as a whole) have improved week on week - your argument seem to be based on players with the higher celling - well id argue Hodgson has by far the highest of the lot - if he can regain his NRL form he'll be one of best England players out there

Plus he has the advantage of playing at NRL intensity, sounds like you watch your NRL - therefore must appreciate.

Roby hasn’t really been on form this season, Clarke going backwards, McShane safe but not right choice for me, Houghton doesn’t have the right skill set - Still make me pick Hodgson simply on his ability

Not saying Houghton would necessarily be my first pick for England, but it's interesting to see you don't think he had the right skill set. It's easy to look at his tackle stats and dismiss him as a work horse, but I see him most weeks and think he can do the lot. What does he lack in your opinion?