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Souths looking to sign Luke Thompson

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better to nrl than ru


the grass may be greener on the other side of the fence but the crows are just as black

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1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

That is my point though... players like Widdop and George Burgess have not played a single first team game over here so we have not taken the best 11 players out of our competition because some of them were never in it in the first place.

Tom Burgess has developed into a world class prop but he wasn't when he left.

Watkins and Hall are both very good players but they have each contributed a decade to the game in this country.

Which boils me down to my point... six players are playing in the NRL who left when they could have contributed much more to the UK game... it equates to one player for every two Super League teams, hardly a flood of talent draining away.

I agree with that although you also have to look at the trend, which is that more players seem to be going over.  But I'd much rather than to RU and the positive effect it is having on the national team is worth it.

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Just now, Tonka said:

I agree with that although you also have to look at the trend, which is that more players seem to be going over.  But I'd much rather than to RU and the positive effect it is having on the national team is worth it.

What do you do if the salary is better?  Sure, it’s not everything but in what can be a short period where you can earn well, why not?

 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

If Watkins (As he has played since coming back from injury) staying in SL was so critical to Leeds they wouldn’t have let him go.  Not in their interests given the state of their position in the league.  That, imo, was just hard nosed business.  Hall was the same.  Prime assets and cashing in.

The best players leaving will surely leave voids in relevant teams, but if our academies are producing what they should be, not what the RFL audits are saying, then those voids will be filled.  

Not sure what evidence the last para is based on or the 11 players. Merrin was judged to be SoO standard.  Good players such as Taia, Paea, Austin, Moa, Fonua have come to SL and have done the business (ignoring dog shots from Moa).  Hull have found gems in Talanoa and Fairamo.  

 

That is a hard nosed business decision no doubt, but that's kind of a separate discussion as to the quality of the league. 

The voids created by the best players leaving will always be filled but they aren't being replaced by better, and we aren't operating at a level where we have a surplus of quality players. 

Yes Watkins leaving will be filled by Newman and Hurrell, but we still have some pretty poor centres out there. Yes the gap left by Hall is filled by Handley but he isn't as good as Hall was, and even if he were he isn't the worst winger in the league so would have replaced an inferior player somewhere else. 

Merrin is a quality player , we still have some, but the amount or often to the level we had previously. Leeds 2005 had NRL Winner Marcus Bai, NRL Grand final player, NRL second Rower of the year, NZ international Ali Lauitiiti, Queensland and Australia international Chris McKenna, Andrew Dunemann and Samoa and NZ international WIllie Poaching.

Bradford had NRL winner Ben Harris, Dally M Junior player of the year Mick Withers, NZ international Shontayne Hape, NZ International Lesley Vainakolo, Queensland and Australia international Brad Meyers, and NZ international Joe Vagana.

Compared to now there is no club with a stock of overseas players of the quality of either of those clubs. 

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10 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

That is my point though... players like Widdop and George Burgess have not played a single first team game over here so we have not taken the best 11 players out of our competition because some of them were never in it in the first place.

Tom Burgess has developed into a world class prop but he wasn't when he left.

Watkins and Hall are both very good players but they have each contributed a decade to the game in this country.

Which boils me down to my point... six players are playing in the NRL who left when they could have contributed much more to the UK game... it equates to one player for every two Super League teams, hardly a flood of talent draining away.

I didn't include WIddop but Burgess is someone we have lost. 

George and Tom would have developed in to amongst the best players over here and improved the quality of it, we are poorer for not having them here. When people ask where the next Jamie Peacock or Stuart Fielden are, the answer is Australia. 

Watkins and Hall would still be amongst the best in this country and we are poorer for losing them, that we got some time from them doesn't alter that. 

We  have lost 11 world class players that would have improved our comp and we are poorer for not having them, there is no getting away from that fact. 

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8 minutes ago, Tonka said:

I agree with that although you also have to look at the trend, which is that more players seem to be going over.  But I'd much rather than to RU and the positive effect it is having on the national team is worth it.

What is the trend though. The last 12 months or so has seen two English internationals move over there in Ryan Hall and John Bateman and two English internationals move back in Sarginson and Joe Greenwood.

Next year Watkins will be in the NRL but Widdop will be in Super League.

I personally think that having a potential pathway to a career in Australia in the premier rugby competition in the world is a positive when attracting young talent to our sport.... I am sure that Sam Burgess et all are a good role model/motivator for the English Academy and youth teams.

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

That is a hard nosed business decision no doubt, but that's kind of a separate discussion as to the quality of the league. 

The voids created by the best players leaving will always be filled but they aren't being replaced by better, and we aren't operating at a level where we have a surplus of quality players. 

Yes Watkins leaving will be filled by Newman and Hurrell, but we still have some pretty poor centres out there. Yes the gap left by Hall is filled by Handley but he isn't as good as Hall was, and even if he were he isn't the worst winger in the league so would have replaced an inferior player somewhere else. 

Merrin is a quality player , we still have some, but the amount or often to the level we had previously. Leeds 2005 had NRL Winner Marcus Bai, NRL Grand final player, NRL second Rower of the year, NZ international Ali Lauitiiti, Queensland and Australia international Chris McKenna, Andrew Dunemann and Samoa and NZ international WIllie Poaching.

Bradford had NRL winner Ben Harris, Dally M Junior player of the year Mick Withers, NZ international Shontayne Hape, NZ International Lesley Vainakolo, Queensland and Australia international Brad Meyers, and NZ international Joe Vagana.

Compared to now there is no club with a stock of overseas players of the quality of either of those clubs. 

How ‘damaged’ is SL though with these 11 players?  It isn’t and we also need to compare the many imports who didn’t perform - that’s a decent list too.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I didn't include WIddop but Burgess is someone we have lost. 

George and Tom would have developed in to amongst the best players over here and improved the quality of it, we are poorer for not having them here. When people ask where the next Jamie Peacock or Stuart Fielden are, the answer is Australia. 

Watkins and Hall would still be amongst the best in this country and we are poorer for losing them, that we got some time from them doesn't alter that. 

We  have lost 11 world class players that would have improved our comp and we are poorer for not having them, there is no getting away from that fact. 

No, you said "taking the best 11 players out of the league" and I pointed out that some of them were never in the league and some were not world class when they left.

You were being overly dramatic. 

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24 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

No, you said "taking the best 11 players out of the league" and I pointed out that some of them were never in the league and some were not world class when they left.

You were being overly dramatic. 

1 of them was never in the league and I didn't count Widdop. 

One of them was in the league simply not in first team, he was on the conveyor belt coming through and was taken from it. 

The rest all were in the league and would still be amongst the best in the league now if they were playing here but for some reason you are contorting yourself not to include some of them. 

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28 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

How ‘damaged’ is SL though with these 11 players?  It isn’t and we also need to compare the many imports who didn’t perform - that’s a decent list too.  

Well its impossible to quantify.

But 11 players is a good amount and we have many imports who don't perform now aswell.

I think there has been a significant fall in the relative quality of the league at the top end, Im confident in stating, as a Leeds fan, the 2015  vintage that won everything was nowhere near as good as the 2005 vintage which won nothing.

The damage that has done is debatable but I think its an insidious problem that we haven't taken anywhere near seriously enough as a sport. 

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31 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

What is the trend though. The last 12 months or so has seen two English internationals move over there in Ryan Hall and John Bateman and two English internationals move back in Sarginson and Joe Greenwood.

Next year Watkins will be in the NRL but Widdop will be in Super League.

I personally think that having a potential pathway to a career in Australia in the premier rugby competition in the world is a positive when attracting young talent to our sport.... I am sure that Sam Burgess et all are a good role model/motivator for the English Academy and youth teams.

Come play and watch Rugby League in the UK, you might get to see some players worthy of playing the premier rugby competition.

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Or of course we could celebrate the players we do have. Fantastic talent like Connor, Austin, Makinson, Clark, Tomkins, Gigot, Hastings, Fifita and so on. 

Of course we would just want every world class player playing in the UK, but that isnt happening, so we crack on working hard to attract more investment and change cap rules like they have to try and retain and sign more world class players. 

The NRL is an extremely wealthy comp, we may never catch them financially, but we do everything we can. 

No good just moaning about it. There are plenty of brilliant athletes in SL, focus on them.

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Just now, Dave T said:

Or of course we could celebrate the players we do have. Fantastic talent like Connor, Austin, Makinson, Clark, Tomkins, Gigot, Hastings, Fifita and so on. 

Of course we would just want every world class player playing in the UK, but that isnt happening, so we crack on working hard to attract more investment and change cap rules like they have to try and retain and sign more world class players. 

The NRL is an extremely wealthy comp, we may never catch them financially, but we do everything we can. 

No good just moaning about it. There are plenty of brilliant athletes in SL, focus on them.

Except this thread is about losing them, and people for some reason pretending this is a good thing. 

Also, people aren't stupid. We aren't going to trick them in to thinking SL is better than it is by simply ignoring the fact we are losing, and no longer attracting the best RL players. 

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11 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

1 of them was never in the league and I didn't count Widdop. 

One of them was in the league simply not in first team, he was on the conveyor belt coming through and was taken from it. 

The rest all were in the league and would still be amongst the best in the league now if they were playing here but for some reason you are contorting yourself not to include some of them. 

I mention 11 players in my post on English players in the NRL... including Widdop.

You immediately follow that with "Taking the best 11 players out of the league is going to damage it. "

I then point out that some of them were never even in the league and now you accuse me of contortions!

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11 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Come play and watch Rugby League in the UK, you might get to see some players worthy of playing the premier rugby competition.

I was referring to player attraction. Stop building straw man arguments. 

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4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

 

I mention 11 players in my post on English players in the NRL... including Widdop.

You immediately follow that with "Taking the best 11 players out of the league is going to damage it. "

I then point out that some of them were never even in the league and now you accuse me of contortions!

Hence me saying those 11 players (bar Widdop)

The other 10 were all in the league, yet you are contorting to exclude Burgess because he was young, Hall because he is old, Watkins because he is 28

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4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I was referring to player attraction. Stop building straw man arguments. 

Players are the raw materials to the product we sell. 

Player attraction is fan attraction. If we can only sell ourselves to players as a stepping stone, why would fans believe any different?

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7 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Except this thread is about losing them, and people for some reason pretending this is a good thing. 

Also, people aren't stupid. We aren't going to trick them in to thinking SL is better than it is by simply ignoring the fact we are losing, and no longer attracting the best RL players. 

The vast vast majority of people wont spend time comparing their imports from 15 years ago to those now.

Some clubs would be favourable.

As much as I liked Chris Leikvoll and Danny Lima, I prefer our current batch.

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2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Hence me saying those 11 players (bar Widdop)

The other 10 were all in the league, yet you are contorting to exclude Burgess because he was young, Hall because he is old, Watkins because he is 28

Are you seriously arguing that George Burgess (who has not played a single game of senior Rugby League for a club in this country) is included in the statement "Taking the best 11 players out of the league is going to damage it."

Edited by Dunbar

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4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Are you seriously arguing that George Burgess (who has not played a single game of senior Rugby League for a club in this country) is included in the statement "Taking the best 11 players out of the league is going to damage it."

Yes, im saying that George Burgess would have come through at BRadford and be one of the best players in SL had he not moved to the NRL and SL is poorer for not keeping him. 

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6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The vast vast majority of people wont spend time comparing their imports from 15 years ago to those now.

Some clubs would be favourable.

As much as I liked Chris Leikvoll and Danny Lima, I prefer our current batch.

Its not about comparing their imports to 15 year ago, people can see the difference in quality. They aren't stupid, they can tell that the players aren't as good as they are elsewhere, as good as they were, or as good as really we need them to be. 

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Yes, im saying that George Burgess would have come through at BRadford and be one of the best players in SL had he not moved to the NRL and SL is poorer for not keeping him. 

Which goes all the way back to my first post on this. We can categorise players like Widdop and G. Burgess differently to others as they didn't play senior rugby here so they have not objectively weakened the rugby we watch by being removed because they didn't actually play in Super League anyway.

My post was about putting the current English NRL based players into context.

Again, you are being argumentative for the sake of it.

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1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

Which goes all the way back to my first post on this. We can categorise players like Widdop and G. Burgess differently to others as they didn't play senior rugby here so they have not objectively weakened the rugby we watch by being removed because they didn't actually play in Super League anyway.

My post was about putting the current English NRL based players into context.

Again, you are being argumentative for the sake of it.

Widdop is different, Burgess was a Bradford player, he wasn't there yet but he was coming through. We are objectively weakened because he isn't here. 

Your post was a contortion to minimise the loss of these players and pretend players who we have obviously lost haven't been lost. 

The idea that as long as the NRL take them earlier enough then aren't really a loss is silly. 

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5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Widdop is different, Burgess was a Bradford player, he wasn't there yet but he was coming through. We are objectively weakened because he isn't here. 

Your post was a contortion to minimise the loss of these players and pretend players who we have obviously lost haven't been lost. 

The idea that as long as the NRL take them earlier enough then aren't really a loss is silly. 

No, my post was a consideration of the different types of players we have lost and at what stages of their careers/development they were to have a considered discussion on the impact that has on the quality of Super League.

Disagree with that assessment all you want but please don't try and argue that a player who never played Super League was one of the best 11 players in Super League and then have the temerity to accuse me of contortions. 

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I don’t think we will ever see an Ellery quality player in our competition for more than a few years, and don’t think we will attract the Brett Kenny/Peter Sterling calibre players. Nor will we ever sign a Jonathan Davies quality union player.

We watch sport to be inspired - we watch to see “how did they do that?” players. Players like the Wiganer Luke Thompson. Or Wigan trained John Bateman. At Wigan, unless Hardaker recovers his top form, the only class acts I can see are Manfredi (and god knows whether he will ever come back) and Gildart, who has his eye on an NRL move as soon as he can. The dispiriting effect of knowing that we will neither be able to sign or retain the stars whose feats thrilled me in the 80s and 90s sucks much of the joy out of watching SL for me. 

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