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Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

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On 13/09/2019 at 07:25, Dave T said:

What do we think the costs will be for a trip to TWP for each club? Maybe a couple of grand per person? £60k per club? So over 14 games that would be an additional cost brought into SL of maybe £850k. 

Is it reasonable for SL to demand that this cost is covered? I think it is, whether that is by sponsors, media or the club themselves. 

I genuinely cant see a sticking point beyond that. As has been said TWP are less risky than many clubs in the game.

It is easy to see that if TWP wont be funding the travel costs then it would come from their tv funding.

But regardless of that, they are withholding £1.9m from Toronto if they are promoted - £1.9m - £850k = +£1.05m (for SL clubs)

If Leigh or York get promoted they will get £1.9m from SL - £1.9m -£1.9m = £0 (for SL clubs)

So how does that work out? Who is worse off? It is ridiculous. They want their cake .... and they want to divvy up the 12/12 slice of SL funding between themselves too.

Edited by Scubby
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16 hours ago, Loup said:

That the Air Transat deal is ending, yes, it's public and not a new announcement.

As I said upthread, and can't be bothered to retype, Air Transat is in the process of being acquired by Air Canada - a much larger airline. More aircraft, more capacity, business class seats for Gareth Widdop. A new travel deal has to be negotiated anyway, but the scope will also depend on whether or not Wolfpack get promoted/admitted to Super League and a projection of away fan visits. It's possible AC will leave AT alone at first, to run their own operations, but who knows in the longer term.

Other airlines service the Toronto-Manchester route but most include a stop-over.

Reading between those lines Mr Loup, if TWP do not gain promotion either on the field of play or by SL not granting admittance, will they in your opinion  be deemed by AC or AT not worth speculating on by means of sponsorship in the future, and if so what will be the consequences for the club?

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14 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

There’s also the issue of the Grand Final. What happens if TWP get to Old Trafford and it’s half empty?

Yes, it should be sold out or nearly sold out regardless in an ideal world but in reality Toronto risks a financial and reputational hit to SL’s flagship event. These things do need to be considered and not dismissed lightly.

What if it was held at Rogers Centre in 2024 and it was rammed?

What if Catalans get there and it is played in Marseilles in front of 60k? 

If you end up with 2 French clubs and a Canadian club in SL then eventually you will have to start understanding you have an 'international' league. At moment, it is we (existing northern clubs) hold a higher moral place than you, which is the reason RL is a small tin pot operation in the UK. Instead of embracing its international element, RL treats it like #### (the Challenge Cup bond a perfect example).

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10 minutes ago, Scubby said:

But regardless of that, they are withholding £1.9m from Toronto if they are promoted - £1.9m - £850k = +£1.05m (for SL clubs)

If Leigh or York get promoted they will get £1.9m from SL - £1.9m -£1.9m = £0 (for SL clubs)

So how does that work out? Who is worse off? It is ridiculous. They want their cake .... and they want to divvy up the 12/12 slice of SL funding between themselves too.

Well this is the detail we don't know Scubby. Are you aware of them not getting central funding?

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4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Well this is the detail we don't know Scubby. Are you aware of them not getting central funding?

The original squabbles were that Toronto had said that they would forego their central funding for the ability to negotiate their own NA commercial deals. I would imagine this is what is on the table and where the squabbling lies (or similar). I can't think of any other situation in world sport where negotiations of this kind are being done a couple of weeks from a GF. It happens every year in RL and we never learn. It happened even before we had international teams FFS.

Edited by Scubby

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Just now, Scubby said:

What if it was held at Rogers Centre in 2024 and it was rammed?

What if Catalans get there and it is played in Marseilles in front of 60k? 

So presumably your plan would be to book the Grand Final venue once the finalists are known seven days or so beforehand, giving home advantage to one of the teams. Is that in any way feasible or even desirable? 

Or are you saying we toss away the Old Trafford GF, which has become of one best events in the UK sporting calendar?

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Just now, Man of Kent said:

So presumably your plan would be to book the Grand Final venue once the finalists are known seven days or so beforehand, giving home advantage to one of the teams. Is that in any way feasible or even desirable? 

Or are you saying we toss away the Old Trafford GF, which has become of one best events in the UK sporting calendar?

Nope I am not saying that, nor wait for finalists.

If potentially a quarter of your competition are from other countries, it is likely that they will get to GFs in time. The GF final at OT is great, however it was 10k under capacity last year and will be that or more so this year (that is with teams within ####### distance playing). 

You cannot run a whole competition with the (fingers crossed) hope that 2 well supported clubs make the final. That is an embarrassment. The RFL genuinely thought Wembley would be okay because Saints got there this year - they are bloody deluded!

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7 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Nope I am not saying that, nor wait for finalists.

If potentially a quarter of your competition are from other countries, it is likely that they will get to GFs in time. The GF final at OT is great, however it was 10k under capacity last year and will be that or more so this year (that is with teams within ####### distance playing). 

You cannot run a whole competition with the (fingers crossed) hope that 2 well supported clubs make the final. That is an embarrassment. The RFL genuinely thought Wembley would be okay because Saints got there this year - they are bloody deluded!

The reason that Wembley had a below average crowd for this seasons final is the same as the last. Its poorly marketed.

The reason the Grand Final was under capacity last season and will be this season is that its poorly marketed.

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50 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

The reason that Wembley had a below average crowd for this seasons final is the same as the last. Its poorly marketed.

The reason the Grand Final was under capacity last season and will be this season is that its poorly marketed.

So RL authorities asking for bonds and assurances and whatever, probably need to look at bit closer to home when dealing with teams from other countries in the competition.

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

that advantage could work in the packs favour, is that fair?

I think a quick look at Wakey's late recruits would put this silly argument to bed.

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1 hour ago, Scubby said:

The original squabbles were that Toronto had said that they would forego their central funding for the ability to negotiate their own NA commercial deals. I would imagine this is what is on the table and where the squabbling lies (or similar). I can't think of any other situation in world sport where negotiations of this kind are being done a couple of weeks from a GF. It happens every year in RL and we never learn. It happened even before we had international teams FFS.

The natural position is to bash the game.

Maybe, just maybe, TWP arent confirming what they have been asked to.

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6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The natural position is to bash the game.

Maybe, just maybe, TWP arent confirming what they have been asked to.

Maybe. Regardless of what it is, it has happened for decades. We have allowed clubs to win Championships and not know if they are allowed to be promoted or whether there are even going to be more or less clubs in during the close season. How long did it take to make a decision on the 3x8s? When did we make a decision on licensing renewals?

We just let things drag on and on and it makes us look amateurish. 

Edited by Scubby

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We would all like a fair and even playing field and I agree with your point but this is SL and the discussions on here regarding clubs having games at different times shows how unfair it can be. Granted they eventually tried to put it right and play the games at the same time but for true equality as with soccer all games should have started at the same time not just the ones that did. Unfortunately we are told what is gonna happen by sky. Money rules. With regard to the TWP situation it all depends on how much interest SL have in attracting new fans / investment . I believe if TWP are in with the bigger clubs by winning the final then sponsorship from NA will follow . Toronto would certainly benefit from help that has been afforded to other clubs in the past. Quite honestly from a wolfpack point of view it would be nice if it happened but chances are it won't. I am expecting hurdles rather than help and a welcome. If David Argyle and Brian McDermott spend the salary cap wisely then I don't feel we will be in a relegation scrap if promoted. Take to many gambles that don't pay off and then maybe. Got to get there first though and on their day any of the four could spring a surprise .

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38 minutes ago, Oxford said:

I think a quick look at Wakey's late recruits would put this silly argument to bed.

It's within the remit of what they are allowed to spend, and not a 'special dispensation' figure over and above what other clubs are allowed to spend which to some barnpots seem's to be OK because it is a club from oversea's, so please tell me why should any team be given that advantage?

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58 minutes ago, Scubby said:

So RL authorities asking for bonds and assurances and whatever, probably need to look at bit closer to home when dealing with teams from other countries in the competition.

So due to the low crowd at this years CC final will the RFL be asking for a bond from Saints and Wolves to enter the CC next season?

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As I said in the previous post to have a wider footprint for the game and more opportunities to bring in sponsorship / investment . this dispensation would be offset by the fact they cannot use other salary cap cutting routes the established clubs can use  by having home grown talent etc. Can see TWP going to have to use the Union route too

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Just now, The Future is League said:

So due to the low crowd at this years CC final will the RFL be asking for a bond from Saints and Wolves to enter the CC next season?

Asking clubs for bonds for competitions based on crowds is as pathetic as you can get. Tickets for showpiece games should be like rocking horse #### and the finalists get a set allocation etc. That is what happens in most elite sports.

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2 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Asking clubs for bonds for competitions based on crowds is as pathetic as you can get. Tickets for showpiece games should be like rocking horse #### and the finalists get a set allocation etc. That is what happens in most elite sports.

I agree, but that's what the RFL did this year with the Catalans and the Wolfpack and the Wolfpack didn't bother and somehow i don't think the Catalans will next season.

Its my opinion that we are going down a dangerous road with asking for bonds and it begs the question with Salfords low gates will the RFL be asking them along with Championship clubs and Championship 1 clubs for a bond to enter the CC next season?

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3 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

I agree, but that's what the RFL did this year with the Catalans and the Wolfpack and the Wolfpack didn't bother and somehow i don't think the Catalans will next season.

Its my opinion that we are going down a dangerous road with asking for bonds and it begs the question with Salfords low gates will the RFL be asking them along with Championship clubs and Championship 1 clubs for a bond to enter the CC next season?

No they won't because there is conscious discrimination against clubs that have come into our competition from other areas in the last couple of decades. Even London still get it. It is like something out of the dark ages and it's pathetic.

One rule for one, and one for newbies.

Edited by Scubby
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24 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Maybe. Regardless of what it is, it has happened for decades. We have allowed clubs to win Championships and not know if they are allowed to be promoted or whether there are even going to be more or less clubs in during the close season. How long did it take to make a decision on the 3x8s? When did we make a decision on licensing renewals?

We just let things drag on and on and it makes us look amateurish. 

I'm not sure that is true mate.

Generally clubs have known what the requirements were but this is a first, so a bit different.

But we dont know anything official anyway so are all guessing and applying our bias 

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure that is true mate.

Generally clubs have known what the requirements were but this is a first, so a bit different.

But we dont know anything official anyway so are all guessing and applying our bias 

I suppose I am someone who just enjoys my sport and could do without all the #### that comes with RL. ####### about with criteria, holding different clubs to different rules. Even Tonga are ####ing about with the GB tour and remember Australia threatening to boycott the World Cup over a spat with the players union. We continually fail to plan enough in advance to get all this ###### out of our administration. That is all over the RL world. Toronto had the will they, won't they this time last year FFS.

Is must be so frustrating being a new fan to the game.

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2 minutes ago, Scubby said:

I suppose I am someone who just enjoys my sport and could do without all the #### that comes with RL. ####### about with criteria, holding different clubs to different rules. Even Tonga are ####ing about with the GB tour and remember Australia threatening to boycott the World Cup over a spat with the players union. We continually fail to plan enough in advance to get all this ###### out of our administration. That is all over the RL world. Toronto had the will they, won't they this time last year FFS.

Is must be so frustrating being a new fan to the game.

So just watch the sport. It is easy to ignore that stuff as tbh it doesn't get much coverage.

Whilst the TWP stuff is challenging, it is a new thing, it is not surprising that there are hurdles to overcome. I'll be annoyed etc if they dont getting, but I wont automatically assume it it due to xenophobic backwards m62 clubs

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5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

So just watch the sport. It is easy to ignore that stuff as tbh it doesn't get much coverage.

Whilst the TWP stuff is challenging, it is a new thing, it is not surprising that there are hurdles to overcome. I'll be annoyed etc if they dont getting, but I wont automatically assume it it due to xenophobic backwards m62 clubs

It's not a new thing, they were in this position last year and had they won they game would already be in SL. Anyone can see what scenario would happen when Toronto went full time in League 1.

Edited by Scubby

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11 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

I agree, but that's what the RFL did this year with the Catalans and the Wolfpack and the Wolfpack didn't bother and somehow i don't think the Catalans will next season.

Its my opinion that we are going down a dangerous road with asking for bonds and it begs the question with Salfords low gates will the RFL be asking them along with Championship clubs and Championship 1 clubs for a bond to enter the CC next season?

They ask for bonds when something can’t be initially met. If something has been proposed then the bond is the safeguard usually for the Club and it’s players.

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