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Marty Funkhouser

"RFL will take back power 'through the backdoor' "

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9 hours ago, JohnM said:

Bloomin'  'eck! There's a huge amount of attempted reading between the lines going on here, interpretation and misinterpretation,  hope, axe grinding etc.

Heppenstall? Cramer? Who? 

It's all entertaining stuff when there's no up to date rugby to watch.

RFL doing a lot more support work since they were released from the problems of SL., especially on line and digitally direct to the community clubs. Recent one' s being  to help source Government and Local Authority funding caused by the coronavirus close down.

As for  Richard Cramer  he is the head of Front Row Legal. He knows a bit about TGG. and presumably works in circles where you'd love to be a fly on the wall. He was the go to and successful lawyer for Maurice Oldroyd when Barla sacked him  , for the NCL when a club took them to the High Court in Leeds and more recently looked after the interests of top whisler Ben Thaler......

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13 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

A quote from the article ...

"The RFL will get the money, not the clubs, and will then disperse it right throughout the sport down to referees, match officials and the community game."

So who currently pays the wages for the referees, etc ? Is it the Super League clubs or the RFL ?  If Super League want independence then they should be paying all the wages of their staff from out of their own pockets and not expect the RFL to still do so.

In fact might it come to a situation like when BARLA split from the RFL ....for a while referees had to choose which organisation they wanted to officiate for. Of course those with any ambition to progress stayed with the RFL.

I am actually saddened by this question. Is it a case of the SL bandwagon having succeeded in misrepresenting what they actually do or do people not really get the difference between the two? SL is all about maximising income for SL clubs - they might claim otherwise but this is simply their singular aim. The RFL administers the sport of Rugby League including training and providing match officials, as well as a host of often unrecognised efforts.

It was the SL who, not too recently, wanted to take ALL of the Sky money for their clubs until the other clubs, ably abbetted by the RFL, forced them back to realising that a contract was already in place that said otherwise. If the RFL do negotiate a payment from the government, which is not a given by any means, and if the SL clubs come along saying that they need the lions share of it, then I imagine that the RFL would have some pithy and interestng things to say in return.

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Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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3 hours ago, Henson Park Old Firm said:

Taking back power from the back door.... isn't that called "Greek Style"-

I thought it was going to be a Porno thread ?


Talent is secondary to whether players are confident.

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3 hours ago, del capo said:

It's all entertaining stuff when there's no up to date rugby to watch.

RFL doing a lot more support work since they were released from the problems of SL., especially on line and digitally direct to the community clubs. Recent one' s being  to help source Government and Local Authority funding caused by the coronavirus close down.

As for  Richard Cramer  he is the head of Front Row Legal. He knows a bit about TGG. and presumably works in circles where you'd love to be a fly on the wall. He was the go to and successful lawyer for Maurice Oldroyd when Barla sacked him  , for the NCL when a club took them to the High Court in Leeds and more recently looked after the interests of top whisler Ben Thaler......

If Cramer could write a book it would be the biggest RL blockbuster ever.

Things he's been involved in:

Various parts of the Bradford Bulls sagas

Keighley not being allowed into Super League

Oldroyd

Tricky Trindall vs St Helens

Ellery Hanley vs St Helens

Ian Millward vs St Helens

Francis Cummins' sacking by Bradford

Leeds termination of Karl Pratt

Kevin Locke's exit at Salford

Cas vs Sale for Solomona

David Furner's sacking by Leeds

Keith Mason vs Huddersfield (the 'the butt photo' saga)

Ryan Hudson vs Bradford

Thaler's suspension

Greg McCallum's sudden disappearance from the RFL

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13 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Worth a bag of balls and a bottle of Piat D’Or, non?

Besides, weren't Catalans on the verge of being on a renowned free to air network  before crisis struck...?

The real value for the UK SL was it gave Sky an extra game with no production costs. Even if there wasn't any income from it it was valuable for that reason. Same with the Toronto games which were at a useful time to be beamed into the UK. Taking Toronto's Sky money was foolish for this reason alone.

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29 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

So it should be an entirely one way thing, money goes from the SL clubs to the wider game but definitely not the other way around?

What are the RFL and wider game going to do if SL falls over and the 5m that goes to the lower leagues each year and the millions that go from SL to the RFL disappear?

I don't mind if Super League want to be independent but if so that should mean they also pay all their own bills and organise their own behind the scenes efforts rather than continuing to rely on those of the RFL.

My original question about their use of RFL referees is just one aspect of that .... the clubs buy players to play in Super League yet who pays the referees' fees to do so ?   If Super League pay everything then that's OK but do they or are they still relying on the RFL to provide officials and yet still expect the RFL to pay their wages ?

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1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

So it should be an entirely one way thing, money goes from the SL clubs to the wider game but definitely not the other way around?

What are the RFL and wider game going to do if SL falls over and the 5m that goes to the lower leagues each year and the millions that go from SL to the RFL disappear?

I don't think it has to be all or nothing.

The point that I was making was that it wouldn't really be fair for the RFL to get a large government handout by emphasising the significant role played by Rugby League across the whole span of Northern working class towns at all levels - only for all of that money then to be siphoned off by the SL clubs.

There needs to be some 'sharing' here. I know it goes against the grain for some SL chairman, but I fear they are going to have to bite the bullet if Rimmer is the one who 'does the deal'. That's essentially what the article is saying.

 

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45 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

I don't mind if Super League want to be independent but if so that should mean they also pay all their own bills and organise their own behind the scenes efforts rather than continuing to rely on those of the RFL.

My original question about their use of RFL referees is just one aspect of that .... the clubs buy players to play in Super League yet who pays the referees' fees to do so ?   If Super League pay everything then that's OK but do they or are they still relying on the RFL to provide officials and yet still expect the RFL to pay their wages ?

The RFL retain a sum of around £6m from SL's revenues as partial funding of its governing body activities. SL 'independence' consisted of taking over the marketing/branding aspects which were previously services which the RFL provided, plus getting their way on the immediate structure changes they wanted to see.

So in answer to your question, yes, the RFL continue to pay the wages of officials etc, however SL pay the RFL for those services (amongst others).

SL do not have total independence from the RFL, nor do I expect they would ever want that - why would anyone for that matter other than out of principle or spite? You would effectively have two independent governing bodies then, both responsible (and competing) for things like officials. Then you'd still need some form of agreement between the two for things like the Challenge Cup and internationals, unless both go their separate ways on that too. It would be completely crackers - and also off topic.

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14 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

I don't think it has to be all or nothing.

The point that I was making was that it wouldn't really be fair for the RFL to get a large government handout by emphasising the significant role played by Rugby League across the whole span of Northern working class towns at all levels - only for all of that money then to be siphoned off by the SL clubs.

There needs to be some 'sharing' here. I know it goes against the grain for some SL chairman, but I fear they are going to have to bite the bullet if Rimmer is the one who 'does the deal'. That's essentially what the article is saying.

 

You would hope ATM that the players ( all of them ) are being accomodated in the government furlough scheme , getting the £2,500.00 per month until we finally start to see an end to things ? ?

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11 minutes ago, Moove said:

The RFL retain a sum of around £6m from SL's revenues as partial funding of its governing body activities. SL 'independence' consisted of taking over the marketing/branding aspects which were previously services which the RFL provided, plus getting their way on the immediate structure changes they wanted to see.

So in answer to your question, yes, the RFL continue to pay the wages of officials etc, however SL pay the RFL for those services (amongst others).

SL do not have total independence from the RFL, nor do I expect they would ever want that - why would anyone for that matter other than out of principle or spite? You would effectively have two independent governing bodies then, both responsible (and competing) for things like officials. Then you'd still need some form of agreement between the two for things like the Challenge Cup and internationals, unless both go their separate ways on that too. It would be completely crackers - and also off topic.

Why off topic ? The thread is about the RFL possibly taking back control of Super League and so it is a question about the operations of both and how they co-exist.

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Just now, scotchy1 said:

It's a bit of a false economy though. What's the point in the lower leagues arguing over a couple of million now and losing 5m a year for the next 5 years? 

Will it be 5 m ? , 

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2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It's a bit of a false economy though. What's the point in the lower leagues arguing over a couple of million now and losing 5m a year for the next 5 years? 

That's based on as assumption that the lower leagues will get anything from the next TV contract, which most people don't seem to be expecting

If Rimmer has any sense (yeah... I know) he'll be factoring that into the way that any Government money is broken down - in other words, plenty of dosh for the SL clubs now on the understanding that the lower league clubs get a decent chunk of the next TV deal.

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

That's what it is now and next year. 

The lower SLs deal 2022 onwards, the lower that figure will be. 

Well, right now the priority is to get to 2022....

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Just now, paulwalker71 said:

Well, right now the priority is to get to 2022....

Pretty much what my reply was going to be , at this moment ' all bets are off ' things could be different in the future 

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6 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Why off topic ? The thread is about the RFL possibly taking back control of Super League and so it is a question about the operations of both and how they co-exist.

Well what I described is control which the RFL never lost. How could they take it back?

The RFL is the governing body and will be representing the sport in any discussions with the government. I don't know whether Elstone will be 'supporting' the RFL as a representative of the element of the sport with the largest cost base but I imagine he'll be in discussion with the RFL about how an element of any 'handout' will be distributed as I'm sure the lower leagues will. It's not that much different to how the RFL were responsible for income from Sport England and the monies received on the back of holding the World Cup next year.

Most of the comments from Cramer are speculative at best and, if anything, seem more divisive that encouraging the RFL and SL to 'come back together'.

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The wonderful RL outcome could be the two organisations squabbling like cats over the money before any decision is made followed by the government department deciding to grant no funds whatsoever, then being accused of "betraying the community game".

I don't suppose that would ever happen, though.


Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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7 hours ago, Henson Park Old Firm said:

Taking back power from the back door.... isn't that called "Greek Style"-

Glad someone else's sense of humour is as low brow as mine.

Rimmer takes back door route...

Edited by Tonka

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8 hours ago, Moove said:

Well what I described is control which the RFL never lost. How could they take it back?

The RFL is the governing body and will be representing the sport in any discussions with the government. I don't know whether Elstone will be 'supporting' the RFL as a representative of the element of the sport with the largest cost base but I imagine he'll be in discussion with the RFL about how an element of any 'handout' will be distributed as I'm sure the lower leagues will. It's not that much different to how the RFL were responsible for income from Sport England and the monies received on the back of holding the World Cup next year.

Most of the comments from Cramer are speculative at best and, if anything, seem more divisive that encouraging the RFL and SL to 'come back together'.

SL will bow to the sport. 
 

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11 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

So it should be an entirely one way thing, money goes from the SL clubs to the wider game but definitely not the other way around?

What are the RFL and wider game going to do if SL falls over and the 5m that goes to the lower leagues each year and the millions that go from SL to the RFL disappear?

New structure again and SL has failed.Get it out of your head.  
We start again.

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On 29/03/2020 at 20:19, Toby Chopra said:

It's Superleague and the Championship where potentially millions of pounds of revenue - which pays hundreds of peoples wages - has been shut off. So if the bailout is intended to make up for lost revenue, that's where the lost revenue is. Where else would it go? 

Those clubs are already benefitting from support such as business rate relief, VAT holidays and the employee furlough scheme. The government is not going to simply write a blank cheque to Super League clubs to replace lost cash-flow - it's up to the clubs to work out how they do that. If anything, this situation exposes the folly of the zero-growth thinking that has been a part of this game for two decades. 

The amateur game doesn't have the same levers to pull to replace that cashflow - it relies almost entirely community interaction, which is severely curtailed for the forseeable. Super League clubs, on the other hand, have resources on the payroll in areas such as marketing, digital, ecommerce and commercial to generate cashflow away from matchdays. 

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16 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Majority of the money will end up with Super League players, whoever ends up with it. 

Fixed your typo.


Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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