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Harry Stottle

Passage to SL?

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26 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

The truth is for all the closed shop talk we don’t have enough viable candidates to realistically allow it. We currently have one pretty strong group (Saints, Leeds, Wire, Cats, Wigan, Hull), who have good corporate income, good home crowds, decent stadia and access to a stream of young talent, two more teams (Hudds and Cas), both of whom do a great job on the field but have limitations (Hudds is crowd, Cas stadium), off the field, then 3 teams just trying to survive and honestly no stronger than a bunch of championship teams, they just happen to be sitting tenants in the big league. Then we have a vacancy, and the reality is whoever fills it is either going to be one of the latter category and not really offering more to the league than those teams, or a huge risk (Toulouse). Toronto cannot come back without a Canadian TV deal and as much as I would love Newcastle in there it’s just too much of a jump at this time. Then there’s Bradford, a big city club who can attract fans, but have a 3rd World stadium and a 3rd World accounting system to match. Maybe it has to be 11 teams for this and next year, just don’t ask me how we handle Magic.

So an 8 team SL then, double loop fixtures on the road in Toronto, tell the fans it’s a Toronto team each time and hope they don’t realize whilst getting a Canadian tv deal for the ‘big 8’. Bobs yer uncle.

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1 hour ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

So an 8 team SL then, double loop fixtures on the road in Toronto, tell the fans it’s a Toronto team each time and hope they don’t realize whilst getting a Canadian tv deal for the ‘big 8’. Bobs yer uncle.

Ever thought of applying to be SL Chief Exec!

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10 hours ago, Liverpool Rover said:

If standards drop would that the fault of not having P&R or the fault of the clubs? I would say that it would be the fault of the clubs.

Rovers were in the middle eights every year and I didn’t like the system at all. It wasn’t good for long term planning as we didn’t know for sure what division we would be in the following year and we were at risk of losing Leeds and Warrington who provide Sky with some of their big games and Catalans, who at the time were the only non heartland team in the league, which wouldn’t have been good for a sport that is always criticised for being a northern sport if they had gone down.

So tell me LR, if your club had not been in those relegation battles would Mr Hudgell have spent to improve his team to avoid the drop, it doesn't take a genius to read between the lines of all his 'headline" calls that given the choice of trundling along with what he has and avoiding spending anything he would, add him to those clubs of the same ilk and no threat of jeapordy would have them shrugging their shoulders with a "it doesn't matter attitude".

Then would those ambitious Championship clubs and owner's (Mr Hudgell wouldn't) have the same desire to finance/improve their teams to battle it out for the success if there was no promotion to play for, no Chucking Fance, and a goodly portion of fans would walk as well and why wouldn't they. So yes it would be the fault of the clubs but the overriding factor that Complacency of some SL clubs and the Lack of Enthusiasm of some Championship clubs will have been brought about with no P&R.

Leeds and Warrington should never ever have been in the situation they were, for both it was just a combination of Pi$$ poor management, bad recruitment and totally ordinary coaching, if they had been relegated who are what could they have highlighted to apportion any blame, absolutely nothing or no one, and on the situation of Catalan the same applies we are continually informed they are one if the wealthier clubs in SL, could I offer they just chose the wrong antipodeans?

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10 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Absolutely. People forget that with 14 and even currently with 12 teams in Super League, the problem of quality was a problem of finance. Teams bought second rate aussies and english journeymen because their academies and facilities were rubbish so they didn't produce the youngsters and couldn't pay up to the salary cap. 

P/R didn't really solve that. Bradford and London couldn't afford to increase spending and went down. Wakefield and Salford are still underspending, have both been in a million pound game and the latter dropped their academy altogether. Widnes were effectively the same financially. Leigh were stuck with some average players and the qualifiers. 

In the two years we've had automatic p/r as opposed to the qualifiers, London were open about not spending to the cap and despite being within a victory of survival, ultimately went down. And now Toronto have come up, withdrawn, and no one else will go down. London particularly did not encourage the others to spend significantly to avoid the drop. 

Regardless, at least a quarter of Super league were on a significantly smaller budget (by at least 3 figures) than the rest of the league before covid. It hasn't solved the fundamental problem that there is not enough money in the game (nor do I think it is a silver bullet that should be expected to do that either).

Yes as in anything in life finance is the driver if you ain't got it you are going nowhere,  but I can't see the relevance of your reply to LR's post, you describe the ailment but offer no treatment.

Back to the old chestnut of we can't afford to bring player's through without stabillity, what a complete load of tosh, 2020 is the 6th season we have been away from the closed shop, there has been a plethora of new young talent emerging in that time, just look at your own club for an example, they have brought some wonderful talent through in the last 6 season's, and a lotof them in the times of crisis of threatened relegation, what would you sooner have done Tommy gone out and splashed the cash on first rate Aussies?

I would strongly suggest that in your clubs situation a cap restriction has brought more talent to the fore, if Leeds could have bought themselves out of trouble I have no doubt they would have done. 

So what are you actually saying in this piece, we know the game is poor, what is your solution?

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21 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Wasn't the '13 tournament a financial success Meast? Or have I dreamt that.

PS re the other question I asked of you, after you have secured a team from the Championship for '21, what for '22 are you considering?

Financially yes, but after a successful world cup, we failed to capitalise on it, the international game should have been hammered, take England games or even other international teams around the country, Bristol, for example had a superb crowd for USA V Cook islands, then what? instead of pushing the game to the Bristolians we didn't bother, we played one game there and moved on, even by helping the Bristol sonics club, but we didn't, we just patted ourselves on the back and got on with the day to day regular stuff.

We should be pushing the world cup NOW, get some of the teams over as soon as restrictions allow, get them playing tour matches etc, get people talking about it NOW, get people looking forward to it NOW, not a week before it starts.

RE: the other thing, I'm not sure, I'd be tempted to stick with P&R , what do you suggest? 

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21 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

That's fine , then do the same for relegation , it would take the pressure off the Giants , less so CAS and Wakey 

Or we just resort to licensing? 2 in and 2 out every 3 years?

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18 hours ago, Liverpool Rover said:

I wasn’t sure whether this warranted a new topic so I will put this here. Neil Hudgells proposal for what to do if Toronto don’t come back.

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/neil-hudgell-super-league-structure-4383848.amp

Impossible to read due to all the intrusive adverts, same as most through that company, basically, he is saying to increase by 1 club per year and build that way?

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4 minutes ago, meast said:

Impossible to read due to all the intrusive adverts, same as most through that company, basically, he is saying to increase by 1 club per year and build that way?

Or if we let another couple of clubs in, there's less chance of HKR being relegated again 😉

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4 minutes ago, meast said:

Impossible to read due to all the intrusive adverts, same as most through that company, basically, he is saying to increase by 1 club per year and build that way?

so what he's really saying is for the next few years I wont have to spend any money on improving HKR  to keep them in SL

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13 hours ago, Oldbear said:

Given that we have never been in a position where we can negotiate with Canadian TV companies about a SL TV contract, and certainly not with a strong TWP (not the 0-6 incarnation that started the season), we have no idea what Canadian TV is willing to pay and until we do then perhaps the whole Canadian experiment needs to be put on ice.

Agreed, return with sonething positive, and the same will happen with Ottawa.

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9 hours ago, Oldbear said:

The truth is for all the closed shop talk we don’t have enough viable candidates to realistically allow it. We currently have one pretty strong group (Saints, Leeds, Wire, Cats, Wigan, Hull), who have good corporate income, good home crowds, decent stadia and access to a stream of young talent, two more teams (Hudds and Cas), both of whom do a great job on the field but have limitations (Hudds is crowd, Cas stadium), off the field, then 3 teams just trying to survive and honestly no stronger than a bunch of championship teams, they just happen to be sitting tenants in the big league. Then we have a vacancy, and the reality is whoever fills it is either going to be one of the latter category and not really offering more to the league than those teams, or a huge risk (Toulouse). Toronto cannot come back without a Canadian TV deal and as much as I would love Newcastle in there it’s just too much of a jump at this time. Then there’s Bradford, a big city club who can attract fans, but have a 3rd World stadium and a 3rd World accounting system to match. Maybe it has to be 11 teams for this and next year, just don’t ask me how we handle Magic.

As a Huddersfield fan i have to take issue with some of your points here, First, we have a superb academy, junior production line, in the last few years, we have been competing with and beating the academy sides of Leeds, Wigan and Saints, and outperforming Warrington, Hull and 'Cats' (presumably you mean Catalans as opposed to Wakefield?) also, Castleford have performed better than Warrington, Catalans and Hull, Hull and Catalans haven't even run academy sides of their own in recent years!

Huddersfield also have a decent stadium, are currently sustainable, and have a decent fan base, (don't believe the myth), we average around 4500 hardcore and 5,300-5,700 averages, we all know WIgan and sometimes Hull fudge their figures and base their "good home crowds" on how many tickets were issued for the game rather than attendance, we also are one of the few clubs that haven't flouted the salary cap in order to be successful, 

Yes, the likes of Saints, Wigan, Leeds are rightly regarded as flag bearers for our sport, but there's merit to every other club too.

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8 hours ago, Oldbear said:

Oh and before anyone wonders why I didn’t focus on London as a possible can I say I think they have done amazing work with their player development, I think David Hughes deserves a knighthood for what he has done and their fans are incredible people who deserve medals for what they put up with, however there’s just not enough of them, and even if there were, the stadium will always be an issue. Trailfinders is not a viable solution and going anywhere else puts them at the mercy of soccer teams who will screw them for rent, then kick them out at a moments notice. Buying land to develop in London is a non starter so their future may always be at the Championship level, developing players to move on.

Almost the same as Huddersfield, but we get slaughtered for it.

I agree though, London are a pretty likeable club for a lot of people, whether you agree with how they got into SL in the first instance or not, but like lots of rugby league clubs and the sport as a whole, they just need more backers!

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13 hours ago, redjonn said:

Although one has to wonder if ultimately TV will be competing with ground attendee's if they get the TV experience better and better than being at a ground.

Eh, smell the liniment, hear the collisions and the ooh's and aah's, rejoice and moan with your fellow supporters, see the stratergy of the line defence, the angles and second phase of attack, I could go on there is much more I could mention that however good TV broadcasts become they will always be secondary to actually being at a live game.

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49 minutes ago, meast said:

Financially yes, but after a successful world cup, we failed to capitalise on it, the international game should have been hammered, take England games or even other international teams around the country, Bristol, for example had a superb crowd for USA V Cook islands, then what? instead of pushing the game to the Bristolians we didn't bother, we played one game there and moved on, even by helping the Bristol sonics club, but we didn't, we just patted ourselves on the back and got on with the day to day regular stuff.

We should be pushing the world cup NOW, get some of the teams over as soon as restrictions allow, get them playing tour matches etc, get people talking about it NOW, get people looking forward to it NOW, not a week before it starts.

RE: the other thing, I'm not sure, I'd be tempted to stick with P&R , what do you suggest? 

First point, I must have read it wrong I thought you was implying that we had to learn from the tournament itself, absolutely correct on the aftermath of the competion it seemed like we were going downhill on a bike gathering momentum all the time the tournament was on, but when it was over and we reached the bottom of the hill, the authorities stopped peddling and we ground to a stop.

P&R in my opinion is essential.

Edited by Harry Stottle
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5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

First point, I must have read it wrong I thought you was implying that we had to learn from the tournament itself, absolutely correct on the aftermath of the competion it seemed like we were going downhill on a bike gathering momentum all tge tine tge tournament was on, but when it was over and we reached tge bottom of the hill, the authorities stopped peddling and we ground to a stop.

P&R in my opinion is essential.

That's exactly what I'm saying, we stopped giving a toss about the international game as soon as the final hooter went in the world cup final when we should have been going all out to promote it.

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes as in anything in life finance is the driver if you ain't got it you are going nowhere,  but I can't see the relevance of your reply to LR's post, you describe the ailment but offer no treatment.

Back to the old chestnut of we can't afford to bring player's through without stabillity, what a complete load of tosh, 2020 is the 6th season we have been away from the closed shop, there has been a plethora of new young talent emerging in that time, just look at your own club for an example, they have brought some wonderful talent through in the last 6 season's, and a lotof them in the times of crisis of threatened relegation, what would you sooner have done Tommy gone out and splashed the cash on first rate Aussies?

I would strongly suggest that in your clubs situation a cap restriction has brought more talent to the fore, if Leeds could have bought themselves out of trouble I have no doubt they would have done. 

So what are you actually saying in this piece, we know the game is poor, what is your solution?

I never said players can't be brought through without stability, so you're arguing a non point there H. 

We have brought in a handful of youngsters, Newman, Walker, Oledzki and Handley. All 4 were brought into the team in years we won the Grand Final, so I don't see them as great examples of adversity giving opportunities. We have also signed big recently too, including two Tongan internationals and Luke Gale amongst others.

My main point was that the reason for contracting to 12 SL teams was at heart financial. Clubs that are financially weak on average have worse facilities, attract and produce worse players, and signed less good aussies and kiwis. 

To me that would suggest the solution is a loosening of the financial restraints to allow clubs to sign top players not just squad filler types. Hand in hand with that is the expectation of a minimum spend imo. 

Edited by Tommygilf

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21 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I never said players can't be brought through without stability, so you're arguing a non point there H. 

We have brought in a handful of youngsters, Newman, Walker, Oledzki and Handley. All 4 were brought into the team in years we won the Grand Final, so I don't see them as great examples of adversity giving opportunities. We have also signed big recently too, including two Tongan internationals and Luke Gale amongst others.

My main point was that the reason for contracting to 12 SL teams was at heart financial. Clubs that are financially weak on average have worse facilities, attract and produce worse players, and signed less good aussies and kiwis. 

To me that would suggest the solution is a loosening of the financial restraints to allow clubs to sign top players not just squad filler types. Hand in hand with that is the expectation of a minimum spend imo. 

Just wrote out a a long reply Tommy, caught the back button on my tablet and lost it, may re address at some point but not at the moment. 

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1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Just wrote out a a long reply Tommy, caught the back button on my tablet and lost it, may re address at some point but not at the moment. 

Ah no worries H. Like I say minimum spend should be a requirement for SL imo. Its a lack of that which weakens the comp as a whole.

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9 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Ah no worries H. Like I say minimum spend should be a requirement for SL imo. Its a lack of that which weakens the comp as a whole.

but what happens if one season you have a group of top notch youngens coming through to take the place of players  who you were going to replace but now you don't so  you don't need to spend any money to improve your team

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Eh, smell the liniment, hear the collisions and the ooh's and aah's, rejoice and moan with your fellow supporters, see the stratergy of the line defence, the angles and second phase of attack, I could go on there is much more I could mention that however good TV broadcasts become they will always be secondary to actually being at a live game.

I agree personally,   but for many TV is a good experience for them....  for some preferring  Pubs. if not socialising at home or individually.

Were the committed... plus many just watch the ball I don't think many are as attuned to the nuances as yourself.

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26 minutes ago, POR said:

but what happens if one season you have a group of top notch youngens coming through to take the place of players  who you were going to replace but now you don't so  you don't need to spend any money to improve your team

Considering how much, or rather how little, our Young players are paid I think its a mute point. In that unlikely scenario it should be the demonstrable ability to spend. Every team should have some star players too which makes that point mute.

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1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Ah no worries H. Like I say minimum spend should be a requirement for SL imo. Its a lack of that which weakens the comp as a whole.

Affordability

Edit, all clubs should be the same or it's not much use having it, is it?

Edited by Harry Stottle

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16 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Affordability

Edit, all clubs should be the same or it's not much use having it, is it?

The minimum spend should be for all clubs yes.

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