BLM

[Tre Cool]

1 minute ago, Martyn Sadler said:

To point to your history certainly isn't naive. You certainly don't make a case out that it is.

But if there are modern examples of BAME players being the victims of racist behaviour, then that is a distinct issue that needs to be addressed.

I don't think anyone would argue against that.

Do you understand the difference between direct racism and systemic racism Martyn? It's not about people being verbally abusive.

[JohnM]

BLM is an overtly political movement that has hijacked the indignation at the needless deaths of a number of black people in the US.  It has no place in our sport and no place on this forum. It should be on the political sub-forum where the "we are all guilty/we are all racist/we are all misogynists/we are all something-or-other " brigade hang out doing their Sybil Fawlty impressions .  Players should be of course, free to engage in meaningless gestures and virtue signalling if they want, but in my view the RFL /SuperLeague etc should not be promoting or endorsing it.

Perhaps we should have an "All Lives Matter" campaign about the US police killing 746 non-blacks  in 2017. Not going to happen, though is it. 

[JohnM]

9 minutes ago, Tre Cool said:

Do you understand the difference between direct racism and systemic racism Martyn? It's not about people being verbally abusive.

Wrong forum. Try Political Sub-forum.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

17 minutes ago, Tre Cool said:

Its not political. It's a campaign for racial equality. It's only political if you think there's some ulterior motive to a campaign for racial equality.  Which there isn't. That's why I, and others, find your stance on this so morally questionable.  Do you think the UK is racially equal?  Do you think RL is racially equal? It of course isn't. So why are you so offended by a campaign which wants to improve the lives of minorities?

It is very much political to the point it does not have the overwhelming support of black americans.

Hate mongers like you need to be stood up to.

 

[Tre Cool]

3 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

It is very much political to the point it does not have the overwhelming support of black americans.

Hate mongers like you need to be stood up to.

 

I just want a more equal society.  Im not sure the insult's necessary.

[Martyn Sadler]

18 minutes ago, Tre Cool said:

Its not political. It's a campaign for racial equality. It's only political if you think there's some ulterior motive to a campaign for racial equality.  Which there isn't. That's why I, and others, find your stance on this so morally questionable.  Do you think the UK is racially equal?  Do you think RL is racially equal? It of course isn't. So why are you so offended by a campaign which wants to improve the lives of minorities?

I'm not objecting to Super League displaying political banners at matches for any moral reasons, or because I disagree with the aims of the BLM movement.

That isn't the point.

When we festoon our stadia with political slogans, the experience of watching a sporting contest changes significantly.

I don't think that most people, regardless of their political persuasion, will find that acceptable.

We will see the NFL launch this weekend, for example.

I would be surprised if there isn't a significant decline in crowd figures this season now that the NFL has decided to politicise the matchday.

If there isn't, feel free to come back to me and point out how wrong I was.

[JohnM]

31 minutes ago, Tre Cool said:

Its not political. It's a campaign for racial equality. It's only political if you think there's some ulterior motive to a campaign for racial equality.  Which there isn't. That's why I, and others, find your stance on this so morally questionable.  Do you think the UK is racially equal?  Do you think RL is racially equal? It of course isn't. So why are you so offended by a campaign which wants to improve the lives of minorities?

Of course its political. Blindingly obvious to normal people.

BLM called for an end to the death penalty, decriminalisation of drug-related offences and prostitution, and the "demilitarisation" of police departments.

"We seek radical transformation, not reactionary reform," said Michaela Brown, a spokeswoman for Baltimore Bloc, one of the organisations that worked on the platform.

... this platform provides us with a way to intervene with an agenda that resists state and corporate power...

[Tre Cool]

1 minute ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I'm not objecting to Super League displaying political banners at matches for any moral reasons, or because I disagree with the aims of the BLM movement.

That isn't the point.

When we festoon our stadia with political slogans, the experience of watching a sporting contest changes significantly.

I don't think that most people, regardless of their political persuasion, will find that acceptable.

We will see the NFL launch this weekend, for example.

I would be surprised if there isn't a significant decline in crowd figures this season now that the NFL has decided to politicise the matchday.

If there isn't, feel free to come back to me and point out how wrong I was.

I'm more interested in what changes we can make to make the sport fairer than how big crowds will be in the NFL during a pandemic.  Very strange point Martyn.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

9 minutes ago, Tre Cool said:

I just want a more equal society.  Im not sure the insult's necessary.

By calling for conflict?

[Tre Cool]

1 minute ago, JohnM said:

Of course its political. Blindingly obvious to normal people.

Another insult. Nice.

[Tre Cool]

Just now, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

By calling for conflict?

No by calling for some changes to the way we do things.

[JohnM]

3 minutes ago, Tre Cool said:

Another insult. Nice.

That's not an insult. Its a fact.

[Martyn Sadler]

5 minutes ago, Tre Cool said:

No by calling for some changes to the way we do things.

It's a perfectly fair point to say you want to see changes to the way we do things.

But what changes do you want to see?

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

Just now, Tre Cool said:

No by calling for some changes to the way we do things.

 

Most sane people want change, but splitting society on race lines and supporting people who make inflammatory statements is not something a sport should be endorsing.

This is not a way to solve problems but create them.

 

 

[RP London]

1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said:

To point to your history certainly isn't naive. You certainly don't make a case out that it is.

But if there are modern examples of BAME players being the victims of racist behaviour, then that is a distinct issue that needs to be addressed.

I don't think anyone would argue against that.

Which is a fair point.. but to point back to our history makes it look worse in a way as we have gone massively backwards... its actually embarrassing we are not more inclusive when you look at our history surely?

Would you point to a negative history and say you still have a problem if an organisation had made huge strides and was now the bastion of virtue? No you'd see how far they have come.. if your present is poor it doesnt matter about your history to be fair. 

[johnh1]

4 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Indeed they do. Not a single person who has taken a knee is saying they don't.

But I have been accused of being racist because I would refuse to take the knee. There lies the difference.

[johnh1]

3 hours ago, M j M said:

Ah but if you say that people like johnh1 don't get the chance to play the victim.

Good grief. What sheer and utter rubbish.

 

[johnh1]

4 hours ago, Dunbar said:

I find this the strangest comeback when people speak about their opposition to or lack of support for the Black Lives Matter movement.

As a movement Black Lives Matter exists specifically because all lives matter.

What a strange comeback that is. Why mention black lives specifically if that is the case. 

[Martyn Sadler]

6 minutes ago, RP London said:

Which is a fair point.. but to point back to our history makes it look worse in a way as we have gone massively backwards... its actually embarrassing we are not more inclusive when you look at our history surely?

Would you point to a negative history and say you still have a problem if an organisation had made huge strides and was now the bastion of virtue? No you'd see how far they have come.. if your present is poor it doesnt matter about your history to be fair. 

Our history demonstrates that we were way ahead of every other sport in terms of enabling black sportsmen to achieve great things.

The fact that other sports have followed in our footsteps should be a positive factor, not a negative one.

And who doesn't regret that we haven't seen more Billy Bostons or Ellery Hanleys who could have the same impact that those and many other black players have had in our sport over the years. We are all searching for those players, but the truth is that potential young black athletes now have far more outlets in which to display their talents, and their earnings in Rugby League will not match what they could earn by playing several other sports.

The test is whether, when they do play Rugby League, they feel welcome in our sport.

If there was evidence that they didn't, then that would be a matter of great concern and we would need to do something about it.

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Our history demonstrates that we were way ahead of every other sport in terms of enabling black sportsmen to achieve great things.

The fact that other sports have followed in our footsteps should be a positive factor, not a negative one.

And who doesn't regret that we haven't seen more Billy Bostons or Ellery Hanleys who could have the same impact that those and many other black players have had in our sport over the years. We are all searching for those players, but the truth is that potential young black athletes now have far more outlets in which to display their talents, and their earnings in Rugby League will not match what they could earn by playing several other sports.

The test is whether, when they do play Rugby League, they feel welcome in our sport.

If there was evidence that they didn't, then that would be a matter of great concern and we would need to do something about it.

The test is to address why we’re shrugging our shoulders and saying they have so many more outlets so what can you do?

It’s fairly obvious we’re losing players, volunteers, sponsors and spectators because of such passivity.

[Barry Badrinath]

1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said:

 

No one can deny that sport and politics are closely connected, but politicising the matchday experience is the best way to drive fans away from the game. When we watch a game, sport should allow us to escape from politics for 80 or 90 minutes.

 

So, to clarify, you don't want the BLM stuff on show on a match day, because fans want to come to rugby matches and escape from politics and the real world...... and some of them  do that by racially abusing players (it happens).

 

So basically you're saying to the players, sorry lads, i realise this is an issue in daily life for you, but can we stick a pin in it for 80 minutes cos we don't want to upset the knuckle draggers from X place, who are gonna call you rotten? 

 

When do BAME fans and players get an escape from this?

 

 

[Tex Evans Thigh]

48 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Of course its political. Blindingly obvious to normal people.

BLM called for an end to the death penalty, decriminalisation of drug-related offences and prostitution, and the "demilitarisation" of police departments.

"We seek radical transformation, not reactionary reform," said Michaela Brown, a spokeswoman for Baltimore Bloc, one of the organisations that worked on the platform.

... this platform provides us with a way to intervene with an agenda that resists state and corporate power...

Because black people in America suffer disproportionately at the hands of all those things. Racism is inherently political, I assume you want an end to racial injustice? If the answer is yes, then these are solutions they are putting forward. You can't have it both ways and moan at symbolism but then get upset when actual plans are put forward that would help the situation.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

10 minutes ago, johnh1 said:

What a strange comeback that is. Why mention black lives specifically if that is the case. 

Do you really need this spelling out? All lives cannot matter until black lives do (or any other oppressed and disadvantaged group of people).

To the privileged, equality feels like oppression.

[johnh1]

4 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Do you really need this spelling out? All lives cannot matter until black lives do (or any other oppressed and disadvantaged group of people).

To the privileged, equality feels like oppression.

That is just sheer and utter carp.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

2 minutes ago, johnh1 said:

That is just sheer and utter carp.

So according to you everyone in the world has blanket equality. Ok John.