Super League ready

[Harry Stottle]

40 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Absolutely. As a general rule international expansion clubs should be introduced in pairs imo.

Like two Welsh clubs?

[Harry Stottle]

28 minutes ago, Scubby said:

And protected from relegation. If you want to relegate them then replace like for like (i.e. French for French). Toulouse being the only f/t professional club (don't count London) in the Championship has cost them a fortune because p/t sides have been allowed not to travel.

Absolutely ridiculous Scubs, play in the same League, strive for the same prizes but not suffer the same consequences, total recipe for that system to be used and abused. Teams protected from relegation can influence the final league placings as much as they see fit, if results don't matter they can choose to play weakened teams in some games that could adversely affect other teams, think about it.

[Davo5]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Absolutely ridiculous Scubs, play in the same League, strive for the same prizes but not suffer the same consequences, total recipe for that system to be used and abused. Teams protected from relegation can influence the final league placings as much as they see fit, if results don't matter they can choose to play weakened teams in some games that could adversely affect other teams, think about it.

But that happens from teams at the top of the league too

[Scubby]

4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Absolutely ridiculous Scubs, play in the same League, strive for the same prizes but not suffer the same consequences, total recipe for that system to be used and abused. Teams protected from relegation can influence the final league placings as much as they see fit, if results don't matter they can choose to play weakened teams in some games that could adversely affect other teams, think about it.

It is not the same consequences. Toulouse are being asked to play in a UK league with no central distribution, no voting rights, pay for all part time clubs travel to France.

They currently have to play all their games away from home because part-time clubs are not able to fulfil a fixture in France and the one full-time club London defaulted the game 24-0. This is not a level playing field.

If Leigh or Wakefield get relegated the can trim their squad, their operations and go part-time and play local sides by getting on a bus every couple of weeks. They can run the club on £500k. If you relegate Toulouse back to the Championship it will cost them £2m just in logistics to play against some clubs that can't even get 500 to the game. They should never have been there in the first place and it is the narrow thinking that is holding the game back.

 

[Tommygilf]

16 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Like two Welsh clubs?

Wales is slightly different as they come under the Sky TV deal and parts of Wales have rivalries with parts of England anyway.

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, Scubby said:

It is not the same consequences. Toulouse are being asked to play in a UK league with no central distribution, no voting rights, pay for all part time clubs travel to France.

They currently have to play all their games away from home because part-time clubs are not able to fulfil a fixture in France and the one full-time club London defaulted the game 24-0. This is not a level playing field.

If Leigh or Wakefield get relegated the can trim their squad, their operations and go part-time and play local sides by getting on a bus every couple of weeks. They can run the club on £500k. If you relegate Toulouse back to the Championship it will cost them £2m just in logistics to play against some clubs that can't even get 500 to the game. They should never have been there in the first place and it is the narrow thinking that is holding the game back.

 

Fundamental question - is Super League and international league or the top tier of the English/British League? It claims often throughout history to be the former but of late has acted merely as the latter. 

The answer to that question defines how you approach the topic. To me, Super League is the top tier of Northern Hemisphere RL. The Championship should be the top tier of British domestic RL just as elite 1 is for French RL. In that context I agree with having set number of places for each national league in the top flight and for each nation to decide how they want to choose those places.

If I were to take Harry's approach, then these are just clubs in the English League like any other. Except they are clearly not like any other club not just for the reasons you state but also because new quotas are placed uniquely on them to "provide a X national team" or to only have a maximum of 3 non British teams in the top flight - regardless of how good any of them are on merit. Its a world of paradoxes and gymnastics to ultimately resolve that ultimately a lot of people would rather they just weren't there at all. 

I distinctly remember a conversation with a Wakefield fan in the gym who said it was "disgusting" that Catalans won the challenge cup. Equally a Hull FC fan who said that liking Toronto was being a "union fan". This is the attitude at the heart here for some sadly.

[Tommygilf]

9 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

I would also have more sympathy with it is the same rules argument if clubs at the bottom of SL  hadnt spent their time with Leigh and Toronto engaged in protectionism.  Same comp but we keep all or half your cash?  Good one. 

Also people forget Catalán were protected from relegation when they first came in.  We've badly let them down by not giving them someone to have as a rivalry.

We've let ourselves down too. 2 French teams equals 1 game a week in France plus 2 headline french derbies a year is a far better proposition to a French broadcaster than what we currently offer.

[Harry Stottle]

21 minutes ago, Scubby said:

It is not the same consequences. Toulouse are being asked to play in a UK league with no central distribution, no voting rights, pay for all part time clubs travel to France.

They currently have to play all their games away from home because part-time clubs are not able to fulfil a fixture in France and the one full-time club London defaulted the game 24-0. This is not a level playing field.

If Leigh or Wakefield get relegated the can trim their squad, their operations and go part-time and play local sides by getting on a bus every couple of weeks. They can run the club on £500k. If you relegate Toulouse back to the Championship it will cost them £2m just in logistics to play against some clubs that can't even get 500 to the game. They should never have been there in the first place and it is the narrow thinking that is holding the game back.

 

So it is fair game that a club may be relegated because of the actions of another in that a club protected from relegation could play weakend teams because results simply do not matter to them or even that some club could could finish in a higher position, jeez.

Whatever the financial implications of French clubs being relegated could be,  they applied to join the RFL I very much doubt that in the begining they stipulated any ongoing conditions that would be personal and protect them to keep them in the Premier Division with no consequence of how they performed, it would have been laughed out of the room, and the mere suggestion of it being applied now should suffer the same fate.

 

 

[Harry Stottle]

20 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Wales is slightly different as they come under the Sky TV deal and parts of Wales have rivalries with parts of England anyway.

I was jesting Tommy.

[Harry Stottle]

7 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

We've let ourselves down too. 2 French teams equals 1 game a week in France plus 2 headline french derbies a year is a far better proposition to a French broadcaster than what we currently offer.

Then hopefully they can both perform under the same conditions as all the other clubs to ensure they stay in the SL.

[Scubby]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

So it is fair game that a club may be relegated because of the actions of another in that a club protected from relegation could play weakend teams because results simply do not matter to them or even that some club could could finish in a higher position, jeez.

Whatever the financial implications of French clubs being relegated could be,  they applied to join the RFL I very much doubt that in the begining they stipulated any ongoing conditions that would be personal and protect them to keep them in the Premier Division with no consequence of how they performed, it would have been laughed out of the room, and the mere suggestion of it being applied now should suffer the same fate.

 

 

They applied to join the competition when they were told to start at the bottom. Everything beyond that went out of the window when the SL starting throwing around a free SL place for anyone who wanted to apply (with kneecap caveats as Leigh are now finding out). This means that the pyramid system as we know it ended there and then IMO.

Now they are kicking around 2x10 14x12x10 12x12x12 or whatever dross they come up with. We are basically a game that destroys itself. Back your strongest operators to make the competition as strong as it possibly can be and earn the whole game as much money as it possibly can. That is how this game will survive. 

Poking fun because a former giant Bradford are now #### helps no one. This is a club that once had 10,000+ season ticket holders. We just love to hurt ourselves.

[Dave T]

23 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Fundamental question - is Super League and international league or the top tier of the English/British League? It claims often throughout history to be the former but of late has acted merely as the latter. 

The answer to that question defines how you approach the topic. To me, Super League is the top tier of Northern Hemisphere RL. The Championship should be the top tier of British domestic RL just as elite 1 is for French RL. In that context I agree with having set number of places for each national league in the top flight and for each nation to decide how they want to choose those places.

If I were to take Harry's approach, then these are just clubs in the English League like any other. Except they are clearly not like any other club not just for the reasons you state but also because new quotas are placed uniquely on them to "provide a X national team" or to only have a maximum of 3 non British teams in the top flight - regardless of how good any of them are on merit. Its a world of paradoxes and gymnastics to ultimately resolve that ultimately a lot of people would rather they just weren't there at all. 

I distinctly remember a conversation with a Wakefield fan in the gym who said it was "disgusting" that Catalans won the challenge cup. Equally a Hull FC fan who said that liking Toronto was being a "union fan". This is the attitude at the heart here for some sadly.

Super League has never, ever claimed to be the top tier of Northern Hemisphere RL. It is the top division of the British league that has an invited French team, in the same way that the NRL is an Aussie league with a Kiwi guest. 

You may want it to be that, and I don't disagree, but it has never set out to be that. You could argue it is the top Euro league, but even then there is no clear pathway and the French federation isn't a stakeholder.

Without going cross-code, and I make this point often, without setting up like the Pro14 comp where it is a joint venture with various federations it is hard to see how it will ever be anything different. The ultimate problem with that is that the only federations of note are the RFL and FFR.

I would be happy working towards a Pro14 type solution, but we also shouldn't be averse to being a British league and making the very best of it. 

[Harry Stottle]

8 minutes ago, Scubby said:

They applied to join the competition when they were told to start at the bottom. Everything beyond that went out of the window when the SL starting throwing around a free SL place for anyone who wanted to apply (with kneecap caveats as Leigh are now finding out). This means that the pyramid system as we know it ended there and then IMO.

Now they are kicking around 2x10 14x12x10 12x12x12 or whatever dross they come up with. We are basically a game that destroys itself. Back your strongest operators to make the competition as strong as it possibly can be and earn the whole game as much money as it possibly can. That is how this game will survive. 

Poking fun because a former giant Bradford are now #### helps no one. This is a club that once had 10,000+ season ticket holders. We just love to hurt ourselves.

C'mon Scubby, yes they started at the bottom the same as Toronto did but whatever the reason Toronto defaulted led to the extraordinary circumstance that the Sky contract should be protected by the inclusion of a Championship club in SL bringing the numbers back to 12, 

Whatever format is brought into the game in my opinion it should not have a protectionist clause of no relegation to whoever the team it is, I remember when Leeds were under threat of relegation a few season's back, the clamour on these pages by some who said, if Leeds get relegated then the system is all wrong and they should be given a reprieve, that to me is as daft a suggestion as going forward we keep and enable P&R from the Championship to SL but the P bit applies to all clubs while the R bit does not apply to all.

If I was a Chairman spending my money on doing the best I could for my team then I would not want to be in the position that I can suffer a consequence which others are exempt from, it is simply not fair.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Super League has never, ever claimed to be the top tier of Northern Hemisphere RL. It is the top division of the British league that has an invited French team, in the same way that the NRL is an Aussie league with a Kiwi guest. 

You may want it to be that, and I don't disagree, but it has never set out to be that. You could argue it is the top Euro league, but even then there is no clear pathway and the French federation isn't a stakeholder.

Without going cross-code, and I make this point often, without setting up like the Pro14 comp where it is a joint venture with various federations it is hard to see how it will ever be anything different. The ultimate problem with that is that the only federations of note are the RFL and FFR.

I would be happy working towards a Pro14 type solution, but we also shouldn't be averse to being a British league and making the very best of it. 

It has though? Why do you think PSG were brought in and Relegation scrapped and sides hand picked even in England? It was literally called the European Super League.

The British League system way is fine, but treat everybody equally.

[Scubby]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

C'mon Scubby, yes they started at the bottom the same as Toronto did but whatever the reason Toronto defaulted led to the extraordinary circumstance that the Sky contract should be protected by the inclusion of a Championship club in SL bringing the numbers back to 12, 

Whatever format is brought into the game in my opinion it should not have a protectionist clause of no relegation to whoever the team it is, I remember when Leeds were under threat of relegation a few season's back, the clamour on these pages by some who said, if Leeds get relegated then the system is all wrong and they should be given a reprieve, that to me is as daft a suggestion as going forward we keep and enable P&R from the Championship to SL but the P bit applies to all clubs while the R bit does not apply to all.

If I was a Chairman spending my money on doing the best I could for my team then I would not want to be in the position that I can suffer a consequence which others are exempt from, it is simply not fair.

Whether you like it or not, the money for central distribution is going down, down, down. No one wants to buy the rights to the Championship or show games. I has zero income at the moment for that competition in terms of TV revenue. The only value in terms of TV is a magnificent high quality elite level competition - earning enough money to provide support to other professional clubs.

The money is gone and if people are happy with this then yes, we should let anyone, #### ground or skint or not go up, and any club no matter how big disappear into the abyss. It is working so well at the moment.

[Davo5]

6 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Whether you like it or not, the money for central distribution is going down, down, down. No one wants to buy the rights to the Championship or show games. I has zero income at the moment for that competition in terms of TV revenue. The only value in terms of TV is a magnificent high quality elite level competition - earning enough money to provide support to other professional clubs.

The money is gone and if people are happy with this then yes, we should let anyone, #### ground or skint or not go up, and any club no matter how big disappear into the abyss. It is working so well at the moment.

I’d happily do away with relegation if incumbent Superleague clubs were assessed on their suitability by an independent panel against an enforced set of criteria and if found wanting replaced by a Championship club who can satisfy that criteria.

[Dave T]

12 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

It has though? Why do you think PSG were brought in and Relegation scrapped and sides hand picked even in England? It was literally called the European Super League.

The British League system way is fine, but treat everybody equally.

It's clear we wanted to expand and become a bigger player like Union in Europe - hence the natural starting points of France and Wales where we had decent presence and player pathways. But we then didn't actually restructure in any kind of international league way - hence my point about the Pro14.

We also never scrapped relegation at any point, even during licencing we guaranteed an element of P&R (one of the biggest mistakes of it imho!).

So I truly believe it is a British League within a pyramid that has some invitational teams in it.

My view is we either try and do this properly, with a more JV approach, or we give up the pretence as an international league (more than say, a couple of French teams) doesn't work under the current governance.

[tiffers]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Fundamental question - is Super League and international league or the top tier of the English/British League? It claims often throughout history to be the former but of late has acted merely as the latter. 

The answer to that question defines how you approach the topic. To me, Super League is the top tier of Northern Hemisphere RL. The Championship should be the top tier of British domestic RL just as elite 1 is for French RL. In that context I agree with having set number of places for each national league in the top flight and for each nation to decide how they want to choose those places.

If I were to take Harry's approach, then these are just clubs in the English League like any other. Except they are clearly not like any other club not just for the reasons you state but also because new quotas are placed uniquely on them to "provide a X national team" or to only have a maximum of 3 non British teams in the top flight - regardless of how good any of them are on merit. Its a world of paradoxes and gymnastics to ultimately resolve that ultimately a lot of people would rather they just weren't there at all. 

I distinctly remember a conversation with a Wakefield fan in the gym who said it was "disgusting" that Catalans won the challenge cup. Equally a Hull FC fan who said that liking Toronto was being a "union fan". This is the attitude at the heart here for some sadly.

Great post Tommy. And very thought provoking.

The top tier identifies as the "European" SL, yet for all intent and purposes, behaves like a national competition (with the invited French team).

[Dave T]

Just now, tiffers said:

Great post Tommy. And very thought provoking.

The top tier identifies as the "European" SL, yet for all intent and purposes, behaves like a national competition (with the invited French team).

Other than it's registered trading name, is there anywhere that the Betfred Super League identifies itself as the European Super League?

[Tommygilf]

27 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It's clear we wanted to expand and become a bigger player like Union in Europe - hence the natural starting points of France and Wales where we had decent presence and player pathways. But we then didn't actually restructure in any kind of international league way - hence my point about the Pro14.

We also never scrapped relegation at any point, even during licencing we guaranteed an element of P&R (one of the biggest mistakes of it imho!).

So I truly believe it is a British League within a pyramid that has some invitational teams in it.

My view is we either try and do this properly, with a more JV approach, or we give up the pretence as an international league (more than say, a couple of French teams) doesn't work under the current governance.

I believe it is a British league too de facto, but that is not what it could be, what it really needs to be for RL, and has its own limitations. 

For example the reason we have to say only 3 non British teams can be in the comp is because we leave that pretty massive commercial risk entirely to chance and will restrict clubs within our system arbritrarily when it suits.

The reason we can't secure a long term French TV deal is because 1, having 1 team in a relatively minor foreign league playing 14ish home games isn't really worth much. And 2, because the two potential teams they could be paying to broadcast could be out of that league on any given year making the rights uncomfortable.

To me we need to rationalise, and the current discussions around the future financing of the sport are likely going to force this on us unpreparedly.

[Tommygilf]

12 minutes ago, tiffers said:

Great post Tommy. And very thought provoking.

The top tier identifies as the "European" SL, yet for all intent and purposes, behaves like a national competition (with the invited French team).

Thank you.

Like I said it comes down to how you see Super League. Is it the top tier of Northern Hemisphere/European RL, or is it the English/British First division (with some add ins).

Without sounding all Big Picture, that is the crucial divide in understanding which will determine how the sport grows.

[Dave T]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I believe it is a British league too de facto, but that is not what it could be, what it really needs to be for RL, and has its own limitations. 

For example the reason we have to say only 3 non British teams can be in the comp is because we leave that pretty massive commercial risk entirely to chance and will restrict clubs within our system arbritrarily when it suits.

The reason we can't secure a long term French TV deal is because 1, having 1 team in a relatively minor foreign league playing 14ish home games isn't really worth much. And 2, because the two potential teams they could be paying to broadcast could be out of that league on any given year making the rights uncomfortable.

To me we need to rationalise, and the current discussions around the future financing of the sport are likely going to force this on us unpreparedly.

Yep - I'm all for Super League becoming something different, I just don't think we can sleepwalk into it - it was always my challenge around my approach to Canada and France - we need to properly restructure to facilitate that, not just let them in if they win some games and see what happens. 

Even just the logistics make that almost impossible, and even though it is a pandemic, ultimately it was logistics that goosed us.

[tiffers]

15 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Other than it's registered trading name, is there anywhere that the Betfred Super League identifies itself as the European Super League?

Correct in that it doesn't trade on the European angle today. But for a lot of people the SL brand is seen as being the pro-Europe/NH expansion competition.

Poss. partly fueled by the number of expansionist clubs that have been brought in since inception (PSG, Catalan, Crusaders, Toronto, Toulouse perhaps on the way). We have seen games played in Barcelona and across the south of France etc. All of this contributes to the way in which some people feel about brand SL. After all, a brand is defined by what people think and feel about it.

Equally, the SL brand talks to being the elite domestic league for a lot of other people too and those opinions are just as valid.

I think the crux of the issue is that there are distinct differences of opinion and we aren't clear what the long term strategy is for the competition with all this chopping and changing of structure. This muddies the brand message and what it stands for.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Scubby said:

Whether you like it or not, the money for central distribution is going down, down, down. No one wants to buy the rights to the Championship or show games. I has zero income at the moment for that competition in terms of TV revenue. The only value in terms of TV is a magnificent high quality elite level competition - earning enough money to provide support to other professional clubs.

The money is gone and if people are happy with this then yes, we should let anyone, #### ground or skint or not go up, and any club no matter how big disappear into the abyss. It is working so well at the moment.

Yes I agree with that, but you want to protect some clubs from that fate, while campaigning for others to be subject to it irrespective of if they perform better than the protected club.

You are a businessman I believe Scubby, are there any limitations placed on your company not of your own making that prevents you performing your buisness practises for doing nothing wrong but performing to best of your abillity and getting the results you strive for? Telling a SL club that they are going to be relegated in favour of worse performing team would be like restricting your buisness in favour of a company that underperforms In comparrison.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

The British League system way is fine, but treat everybody equally.

Totally agree, but you don't want that you want to protect some clubs from relegation.