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29 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

They suggest those clubs because it'll be a nice place to visit as an away fan 

But " it's not about away fans " is often used as a criticism 

Crazy double standards 

No we suggest them because they are in thriving economic centres with the chance to create good rivalry games to attract new fans. Noone is pinning their hopes on Toulouse based on them getting away fans. Same for York. 

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39 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

I think some of their Creditors might have disagreed.

IF any of their creditors had a genuine case against them (pre covid devastation) then there was nothing to stop them from simply going through the proper channels and wining back any money owed. Post-covid obviously the business model was busted like so many businesses world-wide.

Edited by Hello
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8 hours ago, fighting irish said:

 

Are the Our League streamed matches available across Europe?  

Yes, we watch it from France.

Newcastle v Bradford up next, both teams TO have to play yet.

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3 hours ago, Davo5 said:

You really do need to get out more 😂

Leigh didn’t do anyone any favours,your owners ego got the better of him and he then pinned his hopes on the removal of relegation this year which has backfired.

So did the owners of York, London, Fev, Toulouse & Bradford all let their egos get the better of them or just the one you don’t like?

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11 minutes ago, Hello said:

IF any of their creditors had a genuine case against them (pre covid devastation) then there was nothing to stop them from simply going through the proper channels and wining back any money owed. Post-covid obviously the business model was busted like so many businesses world-

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11 hours ago, FearTheVee said:

Without going back over well-trodden old ground, the Toronto money problems were evident long before Covid and their business plan made no sense at all (hey look, we're building a big male grooming brand that will make everyone rich!)

If it made no sense why did mcmanus vote to let his plan go ahead when he was a pro banker and would know how to manage / interprit financial risk and what was a good sound business plan.

I dont want to derail the thread but theres clearly people within the top 12 clubs who want the sport to remain small so their clubs stay relevant. Toronto, Toulouse etc are a risk to these clubs.

Interestingly the same clubs have rejected a swell of clubs to 14 AND a league of 10 at the top.

The swell for me was to promote Toulouse without the championship clubs sulking.

I dont get how its all 'make them play through and not direct SL access,' and then when they do its other nonesense..

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10 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes but he was demanding conditions that were unacceptable, that is the reason his offer was rejected.

I disagree as 3 of the top clubs voted to let him buy the club and retain the SL licence. It wad self interest from the bottom feeders

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10 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi yips, I will throw it back and ask how many people were predicting Leigh and HKR would benefit from crowds t tines what they were getting, Leigh in '17 averaged 6,500 at the LSV if Toulouse do they same when they are promoted they will have done very well, I think.

I agree, although the bettet comparison would be Catalans spectacular crowd growth. I seem to remember 6k averages but not sure if it was limited due to the stadium

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9 hours ago, yipyee said:

I agree, although the bettet comparison would be Catalans spectacular crowd growth. I seem to remember 6k averages but not sure if it was limited due to the stadium

Lowest crowd was 5k in that first season. Having a French rivalry will make a huge difference to both clubs crowds and commercial operations.

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2 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Lowest crowd was 5k in that first season. Having a French rivalry will make a huge difference to both clubs crowds and commercial operations.

Absolutely. As a general rule international expansion clubs should be introduced in pairs imo.

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11 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Absolutely. As a general rule international expansion clubs should be introduced in pairs imo.

And protected from relegation. If you want to relegate them then replace like for like (i.e. French for French). Toulouse being the only f/t professional club (don't count London) in the Championship has cost them a fortune because p/t sides have been allowed not to travel.

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28 minutes ago, Scubby said:

And protected from relegation. If you want to relegate them then replace like for like (i.e. French for French). Toulouse being the only f/t professional club (don't count London) in the Championship has cost them a fortune because p/t sides have been allowed not to travel.

Absolutely ridiculous Scubs, play in the same League, strive for the same prizes but not suffer the same consequences, total recipe for that system to be used and abused. Teams protected from relegation can influence the final league placings as much as they see fit, if results don't matter they can choose to play weakened teams in some games that could adversely affect other teams, think about it.

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5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Absolutely ridiculous Scubs, play in the same League, strive for the same prizes but not suffer the same consequences, total recipe for that system to be used and abused. Teams protected from relegation can influence the final league placings as much as they see fit, if results don't matter they can choose to play weakened teams in some games that could adversely affect other teams, think about it.

But that happens from teams at the top of the league too

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4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Absolutely ridiculous Scubs, play in the same League, strive for the same prizes but not suffer the same consequences, total recipe for that system to be used and abused. Teams protected from relegation can influence the final league placings as much as they see fit, if results don't matter they can choose to play weakened teams in some games that could adversely affect other teams, think about it.

It is not the same consequences. Toulouse are being asked to play in a UK league with no central distribution, no voting rights, pay for all part time clubs travel to France.

They currently have to play all their games away from home because part-time clubs are not able to fulfil a fixture in France and the one full-time club London defaulted the game 24-0. This is not a level playing field.

If Leigh or Wakefield get relegated the can trim their squad, their operations and go part-time and play local sides by getting on a bus every couple of weeks. They can run the club on £500k. If you relegate Toulouse back to the Championship it will cost them £2m just in logistics to play against some clubs that can't even get 500 to the game. They should never have been there in the first place and it is the narrow thinking that is holding the game back.

 

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14 minutes ago, Scubby said:

It is not the same consequences. Toulouse are being asked to play in a UK league with no central distribution, no voting rights, pay for all part time clubs travel to France.

They currently have to play all their games away from home because part-time clubs are not able to fulfil a fixture in France and the one full-time club London defaulted the game 24-0. This is not a level playing field.

If Leigh or Wakefield get relegated the can trim their squad, their operations and go part-time and play local sides by getting on a bus every couple of weeks. They can run the club on £500k. If you relegate Toulouse back to the Championship it will cost them £2m just in logistics to play against some clubs that can't even get 500 to the game. They should never have been there in the first place and it is the narrow thinking that is holding the game back.

 

Fundamental question - is Super League and international league or the top tier of the English/British League? It claims often throughout history to be the former but of late has acted merely as the latter. 

The answer to that question defines how you approach the topic. To me, Super League is the top tier of Northern Hemisphere RL. The Championship should be the top tier of British domestic RL just as elite 1 is for French RL. In that context I agree with having set number of places for each national league in the top flight and for each nation to decide how they want to choose those places.

If I were to take Harry's approach, then these are just clubs in the English League like any other. Except they are clearly not like any other club not just for the reasons you state but also because new quotas are placed uniquely on them to "provide a X national team" or to only have a maximum of 3 non British teams in the top flight - regardless of how good any of them are on merit. Its a world of paradoxes and gymnastics to ultimately resolve that ultimately a lot of people would rather they just weren't there at all. 

I distinctly remember a conversation with a Wakefield fan in the gym who said it was "disgusting" that Catalans won the challenge cup. Equally a Hull FC fan who said that liking Toronto was being a "union fan". This is the attitude at the heart here for some sadly.

Edited by Tommygilf
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I would also have more sympathy with it is the same rules argument if clubs at the bottom of SL  hadnt spent their time with Leigh and Toronto engaged in protectionism.  Same comp but we keep all or half your cash?  Good one. 

Also people forget Catalán were protected from relegation when they first came in.  We've badly let them down by not giving them someone to have as a rivalry.

Edited by ShropshireBull
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9 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

I would also have more sympathy with it is the same rules argument if clubs at the bottom of SL  hadnt spent their time with Leigh and Toronto engaged in protectionism.  Same comp but we keep all or half your cash?  Good one. 

Also people forget Catalán were protected from relegation when they first came in.  We've badly let them down by not giving them someone to have as a rivalry.

We've let ourselves down too. 2 French teams equals 1 game a week in France plus 2 headline french derbies a year is a far better proposition to a French broadcaster than what we currently offer.

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21 minutes ago, Scubby said:

It is not the same consequences. Toulouse are being asked to play in a UK league with no central distribution, no voting rights, pay for all part time clubs travel to France.

They currently have to play all their games away from home because part-time clubs are not able to fulfil a fixture in France and the one full-time club London defaulted the game 24-0. This is not a level playing field.

If Leigh or Wakefield get relegated the can trim their squad, their operations and go part-time and play local sides by getting on a bus every couple of weeks. They can run the club on £500k. If you relegate Toulouse back to the Championship it will cost them £2m just in logistics to play against some clubs that can't even get 500 to the game. They should never have been there in the first place and it is the narrow thinking that is holding the game back.

 

So it is fair game that a club may be relegated because of the actions of another in that a club protected from relegation could play weakend teams because results simply do not matter to them or even that some club could could finish in a higher position, jeez.

Whatever the financial implications of French clubs being relegated could be,  they applied to join the RFL I very much doubt that in the begining they stipulated any ongoing conditions that would be personal and protect them to keep them in the Premier Division with no consequence of how they performed, it would have been laughed out of the room, and the mere suggestion of it being applied now should suffer the same fate.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

We've let ourselves down too. 2 French teams equals 1 game a week in France plus 2 headline french derbies a year is a far better proposition to a French broadcaster than what we currently offer.

Then hopefully they can both perform under the same conditions as all the other clubs to ensure they stay in the SL.

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Just now, Harry Stottle said:

So it is fair game that a club may be relegated because of the actions of another in that a club protected from relegation could play weakend teams because results simply do not matter to them or even that some club could could finish in a higher position, jeez.

Whatever the financial implications of French clubs being relegated could be,  they applied to join the RFL I very much doubt that in the begining they stipulated any ongoing conditions that would be personal and protect them to keep them in the Premier Division with no consequence of how they performed, it would have been laughed out of the room, and the mere suggestion of it being applied now should suffer the same fate.

 

 

They applied to join the competition when they were told to start at the bottom. Everything beyond that went out of the window when the SL starting throwing around a free SL place for anyone who wanted to apply (with kneecap caveats as Leigh are now finding out). This means that the pyramid system as we know it ended there and then IMO.

Now they are kicking around 2x10 14x12x10 12x12x12 or whatever dross they come up with. We are basically a game that destroys itself. Back your strongest operators to make the competition as strong as it possibly can be and earn the whole game as much money as it possibly can. That is how this game will survive. 

Poking fun because a former giant Bradford are now #### helps no one. This is a club that once had 10,000+ season ticket holders. We just love to hurt ourselves.

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23 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Fundamental question - is Super League and international league or the top tier of the English/British League? It claims often throughout history to be the former but of late has acted merely as the latter. 

The answer to that question defines how you approach the topic. To me, Super League is the top tier of Northern Hemisphere RL. The Championship should be the top tier of British domestic RL just as elite 1 is for French RL. In that context I agree with having set number of places for each national league in the top flight and for each nation to decide how they want to choose those places.

If I were to take Harry's approach, then these are just clubs in the English League like any other. Except they are clearly not like any other club not just for the reasons you state but also because new quotas are placed uniquely on them to "provide a X national team" or to only have a maximum of 3 non British teams in the top flight - regardless of how good any of them are on merit. Its a world of paradoxes and gymnastics to ultimately resolve that ultimately a lot of people would rather they just weren't there at all. 

I distinctly remember a conversation with a Wakefield fan in the gym who said it was "disgusting" that Catalans won the challenge cup. Equally a Hull FC fan who said that liking Toronto was being a "union fan". This is the attitude at the heart here for some sadly.

Super League has never, ever claimed to be the top tier of Northern Hemisphere RL. It is the top division of the British league that has an invited French team, in the same way that the NRL is an Aussie league with a Kiwi guest. 

You may want it to be that, and I don't disagree, but it has never set out to be that. You could argue it is the top Euro league, but even then there is no clear pathway and the French federation isn't a stakeholder.

Without going cross-code, and I make this point often, without setting up like the Pro14 comp where it is a joint venture with various federations it is hard to see how it will ever be anything different. The ultimate problem with that is that the only federations of note are the RFL and FFR.

I would be happy working towards a Pro14 type solution, but we also shouldn't be averse to being a British league and making the very best of it. 

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