Where has the Fun gone?

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

Well yes tweaks and gimmicks for the sake of it aren't making the game better. Often the reverse.

That's just a far too simplistic way that the game has looked at these things rather than fundamentally raising standards and making the game better.

I don't see any evidence that improving the game on the field will lead to material improvements. Of course we should be trying to improve because its competitive sport and we should strive to be the best we can be, but I dont think reducing the errors or improving tackle efficiency, or improving completion % will lead to huge change. 

We should be doing all those things on the field, but they won't increase crowds and sponsors in reality. 

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I don't see any evidence that improving the game on the field will lead to material improvements. Of course we should be trying to improve because its competitive sport and we should strive to be the best we can be, but I dont think reducing the errors or improving tackle efficiency, or improving completion % will lead to huge change. 

We should be doing all those things on the field, but they won't increase crowds and sponsors in reality. 

That's a bit weird Dave. Standard isn't about those things. An amateur game could be better on all those things than a SL game but it doesn't mean it's a better standard and a higher intensity with better players.

[GUBRATS]

10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I often think about that when making the point I did in my opening post, but then it benefits from huge demand, at top level the demand outstrips supply quite comfortably. It is in a unique position that has a national consciousness that just cannot be replicated, so copying football isn't really ab option for us. 

We have to work harder for our crowds, our best comparisons are the other sports around our level - cricket, union, darts, athletics, ice hockey, basketball, netball etc. and I think it is there that our events compare less favourably. Many of these are growing their events, ours are shrinking. 

Fair enough , football really is fooling all the people all of the time ATM 

I'm not accepting darts in any argument , the 3 indoor sports ( 2 US ) I have little knowledge of having never attended , but again by being indoor create a different dynamic from games played on full size pitch's outdoors 

Union I'll accept , but again it's the Internationals that are the real events , the club game is struggling just as we are to genuinely grow attendances with regards income 

[Oxford]

9 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

My last game was Wigan Athletic beating Man City in the Cup about 4 years ago , previous to that was Wigan Athletic beating Man City in the FA cup final at Wembley 9 years ago 

Why?

[GUBRATS]

Just now, Oxford said:

Why?

Sorry you'll have to expand on that , why , what ? 

[Dave T]

Just now, Damien said:

That's a bit weird Dave. Standard isn't about those things. An amateur game could be better on all those things than a SL game but it doesn't mean it's a better standard and a higher intensity with better players.

I'm not sure what you are looking for then? What would we improve on the field that would materially drive crowds? 

My argument is that the evidence suggests that many fans are not that driven by the standards on the field. It needs to be entertaining, sure, but I dont think RL has an issue there. 

Those of us demanding improved standards are either those who look misty eyed at past players or at the NRL - but in reality, our competition is closer to home, we need to be better than the other options that kids have round our towns. 

Our viewing figures 15 to 20 years ago were no better than now, in fact our highest live SL viewing figure came this year. And that wasn't delivered by changing something on the field. 

[Damien]

8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I often think about that when making the point I did in my opening post, but then it benefits from huge demand, at top level the demand outstrips supply quite comfortably. It is in a unique position that has a national consciousness that just cannot be replicated, so copying football isn't really ab option for us. 

We have to work harder for our crowds, our best comparisons are the other sports around our level - cricket, union, darts, athletics, ice hockey, basketball, netball etc. and I think it is there that our events compare less favourably. Many of these are growing their events, ours are shrinking. 

I think this is a good point. As with most things comparisons with Football are just pointless.

Big crowds just have a snowball effect in Football and create the event and atmosphere. We occasionally see the same in RL but unfortunately not to the same extent or often enough.

I think the lock down showed what a different game Football is and feels like with no crowds. It was completely different and stripped of all the hype and fervor. The games seemed substantially poorer. If Football had RL type crowds things would be viewed very differently. As is the big crowds and atmosphere are the event, nothing else is really needed.

[RigbyLuger]

The RFL's idea of "entertainment" and "building atmosphere" is hiring Rugby AM to host a fanzone, a programme which may seems to have blinded some by the fact it was on TV, but wasn't popular at all.

Until they get out of that mindset, and hiring Lizzie Jones for everything, nothing will change.

[Oxford]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

This has been something that has been bugging me for a while now, but I dont think it could have been any more evident than yesterday. 

IMO, Rugby League events have forgotten that they are meant to be about FUN.

Now, to avoid pure negativity her I want to clarify that I thoroughly enjoyed myself yesterday. I really enjoyed the England Women's game, and I liked seeing the England Men win. 

However - just after half time, my 6 year old declared that she was bored, so my wife and her left to do some shopping and I stayed for the last half hour myself. The East Stand where I sat had emptied by this stage as the dance initiative that had been a success led to many of them leaving once they had danced at half time. 

As I sat on my own, it really struck me that RL like this is for the purists. I felt like a dinosaur enjoying County Cricket or something with a few other (mainly) older blokes. 

It got me thinking about the event and I couldn't think of a single thing that had been put on to entertain all those kids and families outside of the 160m of Rugby League. For people like me, and I suspect many on these boards, that is enough, but clearly for kids, new fans etc. it just isn't. 

The presentation of the event was fine, professional, but all very po-faced and serious. Where were the attempts at singalong music, where was the entertainment, where were the mascots, face-painters, use of the video screen etc? I should add the dance event was great, my neices were part of it and loved it (then left with their family). 

I think every event we stage should be offering something for people to have fun at, outside of the core game. I don't always like the comparisons to cricket, but they recognised that they needed to inject fun and have re-poaitiined their game massively. We did at the start of SL 25 years ago, but we seem to have now gone back to 1994 - the event yesterday was like an old skool event, and not for the better imo. 

I really fear that we are going to blow the RLWC if we get a load of new fans in the grounds and then don't captivate them. 

The fun ......

I think the fun's gone out of people Dave not out of the game.

I believe ( though I realise how unwelcome opinions are on here) that RL fans have lost their belief, hopes and dreams for RL but most of all the idea they're supposed to just enjoy themselves at the match.

I think a lot of things have contributed to this too many to go into and quite a few that seem unrelated to the game itself.

And, just a quick look on this forum provides plenty of evidence that the fans have lost their Mojo.

 

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure what you are looking for then? What would we improve on the field that would materially drive crowds? 

My argument is that the evidence suggests that many fans are not that driven by the standards on the field. It needs to be entertaining, sure, but I dont think RL has an issue there. 

Those of us demanding improved standards are either those who look misty eyed at past players or at the NRL - but in reality, our competition is closer to home, we need to be better than the other options that kids have round our towns. 

Our viewing figures 15 to 20 years ago were no better than now, in fact our highest live SL viewing figure came this year. And that wasn't delivered by changing something on the field. 

Correct , rule changes just as structure changes won't massively change anything as to growing crowds or other financial increases , we do need to keep looking at rules as coaches are constantly trying to exploit them to win games , sometimes to the detriment of the actual spectacle 

Ultimately we need geographical expansion , something that even with massive investment would take decades to achieve what other sports have , and we also need localised expansion of the support from top to bottom of the professional game , added to expansion at community level 

[The Rocket]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

I think the lock down showed what a different game Football is and feels like with no crowds. It was completely different and stripped of all the hype and fervor. The games seemed substantially poorer. If Football had RL type crowds things would be viewed very differently. As is the big crowds and atmosphere are the event, nothing else is really needed.

It`s interesting, I`ve noticed the same thing about the afl over here who are currently facing a significant crowd drop. Take the crowds away and all of a sudden the game seems more ridiculous than ever. 

 I think afl hierarchy know this as well, it shows in some of the ridiculous measures they are implementing to get the crowds back. No mention of extra entertainment yet though.

[Oxford]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

we do need to keep looking at rules as coaches are constantly trying to exploit them to win games , sometimes to the detriment of the actual spectacle 

If there is one thing that is at the root of fan lack of enjoyment this is it in a nutshell.

We don't complain about this enough and seem to accept it's just part of the game.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

Correct , rule changes just as structure changes won't massively change anything as to growing crowds or other financial increases , we do need to keep looking at rules as coaches are constantly trying to exploit them to win games , sometimes to the detriment of the actual spectacle 

Ultimately we need geographical expansion , something that even with massive investment would take decades to achieve what other sports have , and we also need localised expansion of the support from top to bottom of the professional game , added to expansion at community level 

I agree with all of that, but to go back to my original post, I do just think we need to make a bit of effort to bring back the fun. 

And that includes at kids rugby, community games, all levels of the pro game right up to international stuff. 

Sometimes it can feel like supporting RL is a penance. 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

It`s interesting, I`ve noticed the same thing about the afl over here who are currently facing a significant crowd drop. Take the crowds away and all of a sudden the game seems more ridiculous than ever. 

 I think afl hierarchy know this as well, it shows in some of the ridiculous measures they are implementing to get the crowds back. No mention of extra entertainment yet though.

Did I see something about bringing back paper tickets?

What does an AFL event look like over there? 

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Oxford said:

The fun ......

I think the fun's gone out of people Dave not out of the game.

I believe ( though I realise how unwelcome opinions are on here) that RL fans have lost their belief, hopes and dreams for RL but most of all the idea they're supposed to just enjoy themselves at the match.

I think a lot of things have contributed to this too many to go into and quite a few that seem unrelated to the game itself.

And, just a quick look on this forum provides plenty of evidence that the fans have lost their Mojo.

 

I'd suggest this forum has little comparison to the actual fans feelings for the game , as above comparisons with football are mostly pointless , the only one being our sport no longer really has the giant killer potential there still is in football , albeit in a lesser degree that it once had 

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, Oxford said:

The fun ......

I think the fun's gone out of people Dave not out of the game.

I believe ( though I realise how unwelcome opinions are on here) that RL fans have lost their belief, hopes and dreams for RL but most of all the idea they're supposed to just enjoy themselves at the match.

I think a lot of things have contributed to this too many to go into and quite a few that seem unrelated to the game itself.

And, just a quick look on this forum provides plenty of evidence that the fans have lost their Mojo.

 

I think we are still suffering a little bit of a pandemic hangover, I think the hope of people being revitalised now they can return hasn't materialised and I think people are frustrated by the governing body and some of their efforts more than ever. 

I do have some hope though, I'm very excited about the World Cup and maybe following on from that we will start to see some IMG-led initiatives to spark us back I to life. 

[Oxford]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

our sport no longer really has the giant killer potential there still is in football

Nor will it have while rules favour attacking sides so heavily but spot on.

 

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

I'd suggest this forum has little comparison to the actual fans feelings for the game

Peoples' feelings about stuff spill over everywhere, a growing anxiousness about finance might mean all sorts of behaviour patterns, for example, RL fans cannot be exceptional in this, it's not logiacally possible. The forum being a place for opinions means lots of thing to lots of people and expressing your feeling about the game and people you don't agree with is the perfect vehicle for revealing all sorts of things.

[GUBRATS]

5 minutes ago, Oxford said:

If there is one thing that is at the root of fan lack of enjoyment this is it in a nutshell.

We don't complain about this enough and seem to accept it's just part of the game.

Unfortunately % RL wins more games , something that has now happened in football , possession , pressing , basically boring the opposition into submission has become the normal , hence why I've lost virtually all interest in it , even when United dominated for 2 decades the way they played left them open to defeat on any given day 

[Oxford]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think we are still suffering a little bit of a pandemic hangover, I think the hope of people being revitalised now they can return hasn't materialised and I think people are frustrated by the governing body and some of their efforts more than ever. 

I do have some hope though, I'm very excited about the World Cup and maybe following on from that we will start to see some IMG-led initiatives to spark us back I to life. 

I think there's a lot in what you say here and some of it was in my thoughts on this subject.

I hope you're right about IMG and it is still a positive move in my mind.

 

[Harry Stottle]

I go to as my wife describes it "The Rugby Match", we also together go to live theatre productions, funnily enough I have never once heard anyone say prior, at the interval or after the show saying it would have been a much better expierence if we had a sporting inclusion added to the occasion to make it "more of an event", I can only conclude from that people who attend live theatre/concerts go for what is on offer as the central attraction and are happy with what's served up on the stage, on the other hand "Going to the match" doesn't quite resonate with those who want more than what's on the field of play, why is that? On big occasion games I have attended I have enjoyed some of the artists (proper singists) and the spectator/community join in, but whoever is the side attraction hasn't persuaded me or otherwise from attending.

 

[Damien]

11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure what you are looking for then? What would we improve on the field that would materially drive crowds? 

My argument is that the evidence suggests that many fans are not that driven by the standards on the field. It needs to be entertaining, sure, but I dont think RL has an issue there. 

Those of us demanding improved standards are either those who look misty eyed at past players or at the NRL - but in reality, our competition is closer to home, we need to be better than the other options that kids have round our towns. 

Our viewing figures 15 to 20 years ago were no better than now, in fact our highest live SL viewing figure came this year. And that wasn't delivered by changing something on the field. 

I disagree. Plenty of people watch the NRL and see a 2nd rate and less attractive competition in comparison here. The NRL are absolutely a competitor. There are enough people on social media that say they watch more of the NRL than SL to show that. People aren't mugs.

More star players and clubs being allowed to spend more to attract the best players absolutely attracts kids and fans. The salary cap declining by £1 million in real terms has absolutely had an effect on standards and people's views towards the game in this country. I'm not sure what is wrong with wanting SL to be better and not just meekly accepting its lot.

As I've said this is an issue across the board. The game really has to do everything much better than it has for quite some time. We absolutely have to do all the event stuff but similarly there is only so much you can polish a ###### too. Everything needs to improve.

[GUBRATS]

We need a fairy story , we need a Wimbledon or a Wigan Athletic , we needed Salford to win the CC and the GF , we need the Giants to win SL , we needed them to win the CC final

[Oxford]

12 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Unfortunately % RL wins more games , something that has now happened in football , possession , pressing , basically boring the opposition into submission has become the normal , hence why I've lost virtually all interest in it , even when United dominated for 2 decades the way they played left them open to defeat on any given day 

That's fine for football crowds to be honest who'll turn up no matter what.

And it's not just the opposition they're boring!

Years ago pre 1982 someone who introduced me to the game said of the Aussies yes theyre good but when you get two of them playing like that the game becomes boring. His name is Ron (da doo Ron Ron!) but I think he should be called Nostradamus.

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Unfortunately % RL wins more games , something that has now happened in football , possession , pressing , basically boring the opposition into submission has become the normal , hence why I've lost virtually all interest in it , even when United dominated for 2 decades the way they played left them open to defeat on any given day 

But in Football a team can still score a couple of headers from corners and still win the game or score a great free kick. There are still possible shocks. Even in RU a strong scrum or line out can be a leveller for weaker teams. What makes RL great, its relentless and its intensity, also means the stronger side almost always wins. There are no real levellers.

[Oxford]

3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

We need a fairy story , we need a Wimbledon or a Wigan Athletic , we needed Salford to win the CC and the GF , we need the Giants to win SL , we needed them to win the CC final

The "Blow that whistle ref!" effect has gone out of the game largely because RL is a sport that lacks dream endings which is why we talk about certain events more than others which should be just as deserving.