Warrington-a poor season

[Oxford]

Well the criteria is a bit limited to success or the chance of it and this is being confused with peoples' expectations and disappointment. If a coach comes  to a club where there is a high level of expectation and feels  the squad can't match that, it would be pointless to make a few minor adjustments. It would also be illogical to based your decision making on what fans want.

 

 

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Under Steve Price we were boring as sin and the club, rightly imho made the decision to move him on. But any issues should not be overstated. Tweaks were needed to take us to the next level, as is the normal approach. 

Is it though?

I'll be totally honest, I do not think Warrington were going to win anything playing Priceball by the end. The initial honeymoon saw some good success, losing both finals in 2018 and winning the cup in 2019, but by 2021 its clear that a change of direction was needed.

By the end I think Price had gotten a team to play in a specific style to maximise certain attributes. It was pretty dour, but it was effective and resulted in back to back 3rd place finishes. Warrington weren't spineless, they were just boring, and it wasn't surprising that they struggled to win knockout games that often require out of the box thinking.

Powell is the opposite of that. To compare, Jose Mourinho often in his 3 year cycles at clubs spends 1 year deciding who he wants and who he doesn't, 1 year dominating, and 1 year in internal collapse. I'm not saying Powell will be exactly the same, but perhaps he is taking the 1st year shakedown approach. We also don't know if Price could put up with a lot of stuff that Powell just won't, which can unsettle a camp but often produce good results long term; hence the exits.

To change from late era Priceball by going a completely different way, without going backwards at least a little, would have been a monumental ask imo. To see an even worse example, see Bradford after John Kear.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Is it though?

I'll be totally honest, I do not think Warrington were going to win anything playing Priceball by the end. The initial honeymoon saw some good success, losing both finals in 2018 and winning the cup in 2019, but by 2021 its clear that a change of direction was needed.

By the end I think Price had gotten a team to play in a specific style to maximise certain attributes. It was pretty dour, but it was effective and resulted in back to back 3rd place finishes. Warrington weren't spineless, they were just boring, and it wasn't surprising that they struggled to win knockout games that often require out of the box thinking.

Powell is the opposite of that. To compare, Jose Mourinho often in his 3 year cycles at clubs spends 1 year deciding who he wants and who he doesn't, 1 year dominating, and 1 year in internal collapse. I'm not saying Powell will be exactly the same, but perhaps he is taking the 1st year shakedown approach. We also don't know if Price could put up with a lot of stuff that Powell just won't, which can unsettle a camp but often produce good results long term; hence the exits.

To change from late era Priceball by going a completely different way, without going backwards at least a little, would have been a monumental ask imo. To see an even worse example, see Bradford after John Kear.

I'm not sure I understand any of the logic behind the hypothesis that Wire had to go backwards first to go forwards. I'm not sure that's a phenomenon that we see as standard. 

And we certainly don't see teams plummet from 3rd to 10th.

[Oxford]

To be honest Wolves fans should be damned grateful they have a club that can afford a good squad and afford the changes as well. Winning a trophy really recently hardly comes under the title of long suffering fans.

 

[Tommygilf]

9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure I understand any of the logic behind the hypothesis that Wire had to go backwards first to go forwards. I'm not sure that's a phenomenon that we see as standard. 

And we certainly don't see teams plummet from 3rd to 10th.

Depends if you want evolution not revolution. You could continue playing some dour rugby and possibly still be top 4 (if Hudds and Wigan both hadn't overtaken you) but it would be dour.

And lets be real the difference between 10th and 5th is just 3 wins, as you're fond of saying if Wire had just had 3 wins at Old Trafford over the past 10 years then Super League could be a bit more competitive than it looks (tongue in cheek comment apologies). My point is that it is a very tight league in the middle at the moment and focusing on the League table is pretty pointless. Ian Watson has taken Huddersfield from his 9th last season (which was worse than Woolford the year before) to a guaranteed top 4 in his second year.

[Oxford]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Ian Watson has taken Huddersfield from his 9th last season (which was worse than Woolford the year before) to a guaranteed top 4 in his second year.

By signing SRD!

[Jughead]

Wigan went from Lame Lam’s tactics in 2021 to being the form side heading into the play-offs, without any real sign of going backwards and trying to apply that logic to justify the unnecessary extensive stripping of the Warrington playing squad and subsequent hideous form that sees one of the biggest spenders four points off the bottom of the league is taking clutching at straws to a new level. 

 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Jughead said:

Wigan went from Lame Lam’s tactics in 2021 to being the form side heading into the play-offs, without any real sign of going backwards and trying to apply that logic to justify the unnecessary extensive stripping of the Warrington playing squad and subsequent hideous form that sees one of the biggest spenders four points off the bottom of the league is taking clutching at straws to a new level. 

Yeah but Wigan promoted from within, which is different.

Powell has clearly come in and wanted a clear out. He's got one, this is the result. That has not happened at Wigan.

[Jughead]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

Yeah but Wigan promoted from within, which is different.

Powell has clearly come in and wanted a clear out. He's got one, this is the result. That has not happened at Wigan.

Again, I think that’s clutching at straws and underestimating Peet and almost blindly backing Powell, despite every metric telling you he’s massively underachieved and arguably set Warrington back a few years, too. 

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Jughead said:

Again, I think that’s clutching at straws and underestimating Peet and almost blindly backing Powell, despite every metric telling you he’s massively underachieved and arguably set Warrington back a few years, too. 

Fair enough. I'm not disputing the underachievement, but also think that there was no way an outsider would go into Warrington and not ruffle a few feathers.

[Dave T]

32 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Depends if you want evolution not revolution. You could continue playing some dour rugby and possibly still be top 4 (if Hudds and Wigan both hadn't overtaken you) but it would be dour.

And lets be real the difference between 10th and 5th is just 3 wins, as you're fond of saying if Wire had just had 3 wins at Old Trafford over the past 10 years then Super League could be a bit more competitive than it looks (tongue in cheek comment apologies). My point is that it is a very tight league in the middle at the moment and focusing on the League table is pretty pointless. Ian Watson has taken Huddersfield from his 9th last season (which was worse than Woolford the year before) to a guaranteed top 4 in his second year.

Far be it for me to defend Price's style, but we had a very talented team, which was often frustrating about how we played. The issue about not winning the Grand Final wasn't the real issue here, for me at least, that's just sport. Tony Smith is an outstanding coach but didn't win at OT with Wire with three attempts. 

In 2021 we had the best attack in the regular SL season. We had a very solid defence. It didn't need ripping up. 

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Far be it for me to defend Price's style, but we had a very talented team, which was often frustrating about how we played. The issue about not winning the Grand Final wasn't the real issue here, for me at least, that's just sport. Tony Smith is an outstanding coach but didn't win at OT with Wire with three attempts. 

In 2021 we had the best attack in the regular SL season. We had a very solid defence. It didn't need ripping up. 

Fair enough, I don't think it's quite as severe as ripping up, but perhaps an attitude problem that Powell sees in the team right now?

At the first game this year when Wire struggled past a 13 man Leeds side I said they wouldn't win anything and that Powell would be disappointed.

Given I fundamentally believe Powell is a good coach more than I believe the Warrington players aren't spineless (insert other description as appropriate), then I suppose that is why I tend to back him more on this than you.

Where they go who knows. The pack is being overhauled (again a point clearly identified in season 1), and perhaps that is what Powell thinks he needs for a challenge in 2023.

[Dave T]

29 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Fair enough, I don't think it's quite as severe as ripping up, but perhaps an attitude problem that Powell sees in the team right now?

At the first game this year when Wire struggled past a 13 man Leeds side I said they wouldn't win anything and that Powell would be disappointed.

Given I fundamentally believe Powell is a good coach more than I believe the Warrington players aren't spineless (insert other description as appropriate), then I suppose that is why I tend to back him more on this than you.

Where they go who knows. The pack is being overhauled (again a point clearly identified in season 1), and perhaps that is what Powell thinks he needs for a challenge in 2023.

I'm happy to continue to support Powell, I think he's a good coach, I like the way he gets his teams playing Rugby, so I'm happy to be patient on this. 

But as things stand, his performance has been dire. 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Dave T said:

I'm happy to continue to support Powell, I think he's a good coach, I like the way he gets his teams playing Rugby, so I'm happy to be patient on this. 

But as things stand, his performance has been dire. 

Agreed. The start of next year will define his time at Warrington (and how long it lasts). 

[Dave T]

50 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Fair enough. I'm not disputing the underachievement, but also think that there was no way an outsider would go into Warrington and not ruffle a few feathers.

Why though? Price didn't rip the squad apart and drag us down in his first year, and we'd finished 9th the previous year. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Agreed. The start of next year will define his time at Warrington (and how long it lasts). 

Yup. I think he was a good appointment, and for the right reasons, so he should be given the time. 

Doesn't mean he's guaranteed to work out, but that's life. 

[Pie tries]

Seasons. It over yet….another win for To and Wakey - then it will truly be a poor season

[Pie tries]

1 hour ago, Jughead said:

Wigan went from Lame Lam’s tactics in 2021 to being the form side heading into the play-offs, without any real sign of going backwards and trying to apply that logic to justify the unnecessary extensive stripping of the Warrington playing squad and subsequent hideous form that sees one of the biggest spenders four points off the bottom of the league is taking clutching at straws to a new level. 

 

Lam didn’t have Field or French….any team with those is a different team…

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Why though? Price didn't rip the squad apart and drag us down in his first year, and we'd finished 9th the previous year. 

Obviously I'm not in the dressing room, but different coaches motivate in different ways, some like to rock the boat, some can tolerate certain things more than others. I have basically no doubt that Powell went in with the remit to be revolutionary not evolutionary and was given that remit by the board. They're already clearing out players and preparing a pretty radical overhaul in key areas (the pack being the main example).

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, Pie tries said:

Lam didn’t have Field or French….any team with those is a different team…

Excellent point.

[Dave T]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

Obviously I'm not in the dressing room, but different coaches motivate in different ways, some like to rock the boat, some can tolerate certain things more than others. I have basically no doubt that Powell went in with the remit to be revolutionary not evolutionary and was given that remit by the board. They're already clearing out players and preparing a pretty radical overhaul in key areas (the pack being the main example).

I get that, but as fans, the only real way we can judge is through performances and results, and they have been truly horrible. 

How long will people be patient is the important question 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Dave T said:

I get that, but as fans, the only real way we can judge is through performances and results, and they have been truly horrible. 

How long will people be patient is the important question 

I heard on a TV program once that as a coach you have 3 stakeholders - the Board, the Players and the fans. You can lose 1 of those and just about keep on going, but lose two and you're out. Each stakeholder isn't equally as powerful as eachother, but influence eachother in different ways. Obviously none are a single homogeneous block either.

Powell clearly has the backing of the board, he is actively changing the players, the fans will hopefully reap the benefits next year.

[Jughead]

10 minutes ago, Pie tries said:

Lam didn’t have Field or French….any team with those is a different team…

Lam had Hastings, Marshall, Leuluai, Powell, Farrell, Bateman, KPP, Smithies, Smith and Havard (amongst others and all but one is still there). There was absolutely zero justification for the way in which Wigan played and continued to play in the second half of 2021, whether Field and French were fit or not. 

Wigan were kept to ten or fewer no less than eleven times and failed to score a try in four games. 

I’m not having that it was solely down to French and Field but primarily down to the fact Lam had Wigan playing the worst rugby I’ve seen from a Wigan side, yes, worse than 2005/06. 

[Dallas Mead]

3 hours ago, Oxford said:

To be honest Wolves fans should be damned grateful they have a club that can afford a good squad and afford the changes as well. Winning a trophy really recently hardly comes under the title of long suffering fans.

 

Come on Salford

[moorside roughyed]

I'm going the Warrington game with my son on Friday night,it's our first Warrington game. I'm wondering what I'm walking into.