This is all our fault...

[sam4731]

I've never been motivated to speak up on here but I feel I have to vent...

We have brought this on ourselves. Australia for years have been developing the game in the pacific Islands for years, not only benefiting those countries but also their own by creating strong competition for places in the NRL, therefore strengthening the kangaroos.

 

What has our attitude been? We've just limited the number of overseas teams in the British system to 2. We sneer at any team outside the M62 corridor, starving them of any support and the game is pretty much non existent in any of the home nations.

For me the international game is probably dead now, we can no longer claim to be on a similar level to Oz and NZ so why should they bother with us?

I personally think the mentality is too ingrained now and there isn't much that we can do to reverse our fortunes.

 

I know I might get slated and there is a strong opposing view but I can't see a way back

[sam4731]

To be honest, I think only having the oceanic cup is the death of the international game, in the same way that the superbowl winners are declared world champions.

[crashmon]

what international game?. Outside of this WC, just how many internationals have england played since 2017? Not including games vs made up teams

Now compare that to how many games England have played in football, Union, Crickt (not including world cups). We dont have an international game

We had a chance to spark one, but that would have meant getting to the final, which seeing how the draw was rigged to get us to the final, we failed to do

[sam4731]

Even if we did get to the final, what would that have achieved, Australia queuing up to play France and Wales in test series?

[crashmon]

7 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

Even if we did get to the final, what would that have achieved, Australia queuing up to play France and Wales in test series?

No but it might have made the Aus team want to tour england in a ashes tour, and play a warm up in France.  Now you wont see them again until 2025

Edited November 12, 2022 by crashmon

[sam4731]

2 minutes ago, crashmon said:

No but it might have made the Aus team want to tour england in a ashes tour, and play a warm up in France.  Now you wont see them again until 2025

The sport has come to something when that was the height of our ambition.

[crashmon]

Just now, sam4731 said:

The sport has come to something when that was the height of our ambition.

your 100% correct I'm afraid

[Phil]

We had our chance, a few years ago the RFL had 10 (I think) development officers in London. They didn’t renew their contracts as a cost cutting measure.

False economy of the worst possible kind 

[LeytherRob]

29 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

I've never been motivated to speak up on here but I feel I have to vent...

We have brought this on ourselves. Australia for years have been developing the game in the pacific Islands for years, not only benefiting those countries but also their own by creating strong competition for places in the NRL, therefore strengthening the kangaroos.

 

What has our attitude been? We've just limited the number of overseas teams in the British system to 2. We sneer at any team outside the M62 corridor, starving them of any support and the game is pretty much non existent in any of the home nations.

For me the international game is probably dead now, we can no longer claim to be on a similar level to Oz and NZ so why should they bother with us?

I personally think the mentality is too ingrained now and there isn't much that we can do to reverse our fortunes.

 

I know I might get slated and there is a strong opposing view but I can't see a way back

So true, Australia has been way ahead of us. Can't wait to watch the Samoan, PNG, Tongan and multiple NZ teams in the NRL next year. Oh wait....

 

Oz is every bit as insular, probably more so than the UK when it comes to expanding the game. What it does have is massively more money, better facilities and less competition in terms of securing the best athletes into their systems instead of other sports. Acting like another French team, or bringing back Toronto is suddenly going to improve the NH international scene is just nonsense.

[Mark S]

27 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

The international game isn’t dead it will just be exclusively oceanic cup. Not building Wales or France in last decade is where the fault lies and that’s on the RFL because begging Australia and New Zealand was their only strategy and they have outgrown us.

I don’t see any nation coming up here before World Cup and why should they?

But we let a French team into SL and all they have done is fill the team with Aussie/Kiwi players who most often played like they are on a stag do to Benidorm. 
 

[sam4731]

13 minutes ago, Mark S said:

But we let a French team into SL and all they have done is fill the team with Aussie/Kiwi players who most often played like they are on a stag do to Benidorm. 
 

You say that but we had a French team in this world cup which was pretty much completely full time athletes. That has to show development and that is because of RFL involvement.

[Jughead]

I think it’s a bit knee jerk to say international rugby league is dead. That result today is every bit why international rugby league isn’t dead or dying. Samoa have, in the space of approximately a month, gone from being absolutely pumped by England to turning them over in a World Cup Semi-Final with some of the best players in their respective positions on the planet in their side and sticking their hand up to represent their nation. England, New Zealand, Australia and Tonga should be banging down Samoa’s door to play them next year. 

It’s great that Tonga and Samoa are of a standard now that they’re offering tough fixtures to England, Australia and New Zealand and it’s great that both have beaten Australia and England. 

As for England, failing to reach the final is disappointing from their perspective and can be classed as a failure. The attitude towards the international game is poor, at best. With no real competition, they lead us to believe that a made up side is appropriate competition, when it’s plainly obvious that they’re not. 

Blaming non-English players in Super League is wrong and offensive, really. Clubs should take the blame here. We play too many games, we’ve done some ridiculous stuff with our fixtures, we have clubs who simply tread water, we don’t have enough clubs striving for more and we have had self interest of club chairmen running the game for years. 

[sam4731]

17 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

So true, Australia has been way ahead of us. Can't wait to watch the Samoan, PNG, Tongan and multiple NZ teams in the NRL next year. Oh wait....

 

Oz is every bit as insular, probably more so than the UK when it comes to expanding the game. What it does have is massively more money, better facilities and less competition in terms of securing the best athletes into their systems instead of other sports. Acting like another French team, or bringing back Toronto is suddenly going to improve the NH international scene is just nonsense.

Of course you don't just shove in teams in areas where there is no support but getting rugby balls in hands outside of the heartlands would be a start. We need proper youth development in place across the home nations and beyond. Its a long term project but its just not happening.

[eal]

Wales and France are about 30 years away from being competitive, if ever. The game is really far gone in those countries.

Edited November 12, 2022 by eal

[The Masked Poster]

1 minute ago, Jughead said:

I think it’s a bit knee jerk to say international rugby league is dead. That result today is every bit why international rugby league isn’t dead or dying. Samoa have, in the space of approximately a month, gone from being absolutely pumped by England to turning them over in a World Cup Semi-Final with some of the best players in their respective positions on the planet in their side and sticking their hand up to represent their nation. England, New Zealand, Australia and Tonga should be banging down Samoa’s door to play them next year. 

It’s great that Tonga and Samoa are of a standard now that they’re offering tough fixtures to England, Australia and New Zealand and it’s great that both have beaten Australia and England. 

As for England, failing to reach the final is disappointing from their perspective and can be classed as a failure. The attitude towards the international game is poor, at best. With no real competition, they lead us to believe that a made up side is appropriate competition, when it’s plainly obvious that they’re not. 

Blaming non-English players in Super League is wrong and offensive, really. Clubs should take the blame here. We play too many games, we’ve done some ridiculous stuff with our fixtures, we have clubs who simply tread water, we don’t have enough clubs striving for more and we have had self interest of club chairmen running the game for years. 

But we aren't saying international Rugby league is dead. Just the bit that involves NH teams playing in it. 

[Jughead]

4 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

But we aren't saying international Rugby league is dead. Just the bit that involves NH teams playing in it. 

The first post on this thread literally is someone’s opinion that international rugby league is dead. They literally say “For me the international game is probably dead now”. 

[Stuff Smith]

34 minutes ago, Phil said:

We had our chance, a few years ago the RFL had 10 (I think) development officers in London. They didn’t renew their contracts as a cost cutting measure.

False economy of the worst possible kind 

My favourite post on this forum. Ever.

[sam4731]

Just now, Jughead said:

The first post on this thread literally is someone’s opinion that international rugby league is dead. They literally say “For me the international game is probably dead now”. 

But I'm still saying that it is. An international game without serious NH involvement is not an international game. Even when England were the only serious NH threat, it was debatable whether we had a proper international game anyway. Thus has just put the nail in the coffin.

[The Masked Poster]

2 minutes ago, Jughead said:

The first post on this thread literally is someone’s opinion that international rugby league is dead. They literally say “For me the international game is probably dead now”. 

Maybe *he* is then. But I don't think so, I just think in a few more years, even NZ will not be interested in touring here. So there will be some international competition in the SH but not here. 

[Jughead]

Just now, sam4731 said:

But I'm still saying that it is. An international game without serious NH involvement is not an international game. Even when England were the only serious NH threat, it was debatable whether we had a proper international game anyway. Thus has just put the nail in the coffin.

We’ve gone from three nations being of a certain standard to probably five right now. That’s growth. 

[Phil]

31 minutes ago, Mark S said:

But we let a French team into SL and all they have done is fill the team with Aussie/Kiwi players who most often played like they are on a stag do to Benidorm. 
 

Because we didn’t insure them against relegation 

[Jughead]

3 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

Maybe *he* is then. But I don't think so, I just think in a few more years, even NZ will not be interested in touring here. So there will be some international competition in the SH but not here. 

I think that’s knee jerk. Samoa and Tonga are the “new kids on the block” so to speak to top-level international rugby league. If after the two games England have had in this tournament against Samoa, both of them outside of the heartlands and both of them with 40k+ attendances, England should be demanding a series against Samoa (ideally with New Zealand and France, too, though that’s for a wish list type thread) next year. New Zealand are regularly receptive to playing us, they even come on that farcical US mid-season game, so I can’t see a sudden change there. 

[Londonbornirishbred]

Have to say that international RL is now just NRL/SOO lite.

Next week will see 34 players born in NSW or Queensland with a sprinkling of Kiwis. This is the reality.

 

[unapologetic pedant]

57 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

We have brought this on ourselves. Australia for years have been developing the game in the pacific Islands for years, not only benefiting those countries but also their own by creating strong competition for places in the NRL, therefore strengthening the kangaroos.

You`re jumping to a full set of false conclusions.

The current strength of Samoa and Tonga is the culmination of over half a century of migration patterns. Polynesians in the 1960s settled in areas of Auckland where League was strong, and they naturally gravitated towards inner-city clubs like Richmond and Ponsonby. That trend spread through Auckland and the rest of New Zealand to the point where League is now overwhelmingly Pasifika/Māori.

In the past generation or two, substantial numbers from those communities have relocated to Australia taking advantage of the Trans-Tasman Travel Arrangement which allows for free movement between Oz and NZ. In addition, there`s been some migration to Oz directly from the islands.

All this is why there are so many talented players coming through Aussie and Kiwi junior systems who are qualified to play for Samoa and Tonga. It has nothing to do with "Australia developing the game in the pacific islands".

[sam4731]

5 minutes ago, Jughead said:

I think that’s knee jerk. Samoa and Tonga are the “new kids on the block” so to speak to top-level international rugby league. If after the two games England have had in this tournament against Samoa, both of them outside of the heartlands and both of them with 40k+ attendances, England should be demanding a series against Samoa (ideally with New Zealand and France, too, though that’s for a wish list type thread) next year. New Zealand are regularly receptive to playing us, they even come on that farcical US mid-season game, so I can’t see a sudden change there. 

My original point was that we have no sway in the international game now. 'Demanding' a test against Samoa just isn't in our hands anymore. It's in the hands of the NRL which just isn't going to be receptive to us.