5 in a row and counting: will Saints’ dominance ever end?

[Oxford]

Periods of dominance happen in any sport and bemoaning them is a bit silly. Their significance at the time is interesting but  it only really matters in history books. As usual I think all the sides have improved before the season kicks off and if we weren't so busy dismissing the chances of some and nailing on the certainty for others we might enjoy the game alot more.

We tend to be a fan base that recognises and applauds varied winners in competitions, still have hopes for the underdog don't like one sided games or certainty in outcomes. Which begs the question how we ever came to support RL in the first place as the truth is all those don't work the way we'd like them to. We seem more like casual fans of the FA cup.

 

 

[Madrileño]

1 minute ago, Oxford said:

As usual I think all the sides have improved before the season kicks off and if we weren't so busy dismissing the chances of some and nailing on the certainty for others we might enjoy the game alot more.

Fair enough. Just as a matter of interest, where do you think Leeds have improved?

[Oxford]

13 minutes ago, Madrileño said:

Fair enough. Just as a matter of interest, where do you think Leeds have improved?

I think the way they play has improved and I wouldn't use their outing at Warrington as a guide if that's what you're asking.

[Madrileño]

49 minutes ago, Oxford said:

I think the way they play has improved and I wouldn't use their outing at Warrington as a guide if that's what you're asking.

No. I wasn't asking that. I just see a number of areas where they have regressed. 

"The way they play" ?   OK. I don't want to take the thread off topic, so we can leave it at that. 

[EagleEyePie]

8 hours ago, bobbruce said:

The difference between this Saints team and that great Wigan team is Wigan clearly had the best squad and always had the two or three best players in the league. With this Saints team most opposition fans can’t wait to tell you how rubbish the players are they certainly haven’t got a star studded squad. Out of interest how many saints players would you swap the opposite number at Wigan for. Wigan are obviously weak in the pack but have the best backs in the league for me.
 

Saints 

1/ Welsby

2/ Makinson

3/ Hopoate

4/ Percival

5/ Benison

6/ Lomax

7/ Dodd

8/ Walmsley 

9/ Roby

10/ Lees

11/ Matautia 

12/ Batchelor

13/ Knowles

wigan 

1/ Field

2/French

3/King

4:Wardle

5/Marshal

6/Cust

7/Smith

8/Singleton 

9/Powell

10/Bryne

11/Isa

12/Farrell

13/Smithies

 

If you picked the best Saints/Wigan 13 you'd probably get

1- Welsby

2- French

3 - Hopoate/Hurrell (King has no form to speak of so it would be blind optimism to pick him)

4 - Wardle

5 - Makinson

6 - Lomax

7 - Dodd

8 - Walmsley

9 - Roby

10 - Paasi

11 - Matautia

12 - Farrell

13 - Knowles

Just going number 1-13 doesn't really show anything as Cooper and Havard at Wigan are better than Singleton and Byrne but Paasi is better than both of those and Lees. KPP is better than Isa but Matautia and Batchelor are better than both based on form (I've got some hope for KPP though). You can say some of those decisions are quite close but that's 10 Saints players and 3 Wigan players. It's a big difference even if there are some fine margins between selections. And despite Wigan having a very strong backline it's the pack that tends to be where it matters.

[Exiled Wiganer]

6 minutes ago, EagleEyePie said:

If you picked the best Saints/Wigan 13 you'd probably get

1- Welsby

2- French

3 - Hopoate/Hurrell (King has no form to speak of so it would be blind optimism to pick him)

4 - Wardle

5 - Makinson

6 - Lomax

7 - Dodd

8 - Walmsley

9 - Roby

10 - Paasi

11 - Matautia

12 - Farrell

13 - Knowles

Just going number 1-13 doesn't really show anything as Cooper and Havard at Wigan are better than Singleton and Byrne but Paasi is better than both of those and Lees. KPP is better than Isa but Matautia and Batchelor are better than both based on form (I've got some hope for KPP though). You can say some of those decisions are quite close but that's 10 Saints players and 3 Wigan players. It's a big difference even if there are some fine margins between selections. And despite Wigan having a very strong backline it's the pack that tends to be where it matters.

I would find a place for Field, to make it 4 v 9, and 4 out of 17 for the whole squad. And it’d be the same story across the league. It’s remarkable. Looking at the ages and lengths of contract, my money would be on this run leading to 8 on the trot. If I knew how to defer a post by a year, wearing my Harry Seldon hat, I would write 6 in a row, and 7 in a row posts now for 24 and 25. 

[Oxford]

5 hours ago, Madrileño said:

so we can leave it at that. 

No problem but judging by the rest of the posts worrying about going off thread is a pointless excercise as most threads on here usually end up  somewhere between Vladivostok, Timbuktu and Buxton.

[Saint Toppy]

On 16/02/2023 at 22:10, EagleEyePie said:

It's certainly hard to see anyone really threatening Saints unless they have an absolutely horrendous year with injuries.

For me the most remarkable thing about Saints winning it last year was the fact they did with so many key players missing throughout the year.

The lost Grace for almost the entire season, Dodd for the vast majority of it, Hopoate played just a handful of games, Percival missed nearly half the year, Walmsley missed the run-in & play-off's and Lomax played half the season having to have a pain killing injection before every match.

I, like man other people thought they'd really struggle missing those players, but they still managed to finish top and win the GF. Every team has injuries to key players at various times during a season, the key to a successful year is how well they can cope without those players.

[SalfordSlim]

On 16/02/2023 at 15:14, FearTheVee said:

I think you are overstating the gap between Saints and the rest.  There are a few teams more than capable of beating Saints in the Cup or Play-offs, Wigan being one of them as they proved last year.

Last year I was convinced Salford would beat us in the play-offs and they very nearly did.

With half our team missing...

TBH if SL was a comp where the league winners were crowned champs then you'd struggle to look past Saints as they have such great strength in depth outside their obviously superior first 17. The fact is play-off games can always throw up a surprise. Salford were well beaten in the 2019 GF but last year if a couple of ref calls went the other way and Croft/Ackers played the result might well have been different. Are Salford a better team than Saints? Nope. But the gap isn't huge and any team playing "above themselves" for 80 minutes and a slight off-day for Saints would quite easily mean they don't win this year's comp.

Logic says Saints again but come play-off time anything can happen.

[Welshleaguelover]

I think there'll be some sort of drop off for them this season. They've climbed the mountain 4 years in a row and now have the WCC as the cherry on top.

At this point it's only natural to take your eye off the ball a little bit.

Is there a team good enough to knock them off their perch? I don't think so.

I think Wire and Huddersfield have built well but might be a season or two too soon. Wigan seem like a couple of players short. Leeds have talent but are lacking the killer instinct for me.

But, as said above, anything can happen come playoff time.

[EagleEyePie]

3 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

For me the most remarkable thing about Saints winning it last year was the fact they did with so many key players missing throughout the year.

The lost Grace for almost the entire season, Dodd for the vast majority of it, Hopoate played just a handful of games, Percival missed nearly half the year, Walmsley missed the run-in & play-off's and Lomax played half the season having to have a pain killing injection before every match.

I, like man other people thought they'd really struggle missing those players, but they still managed to finish top and win the GF. Every team has injuries to key players at various times during a season, the key to a successful year is how well they can cope without those players.

I wouldn't say it's that remarkable in relation to where Saints strength lies. Only one of those mentioned above is a forward and it's the forwards that have been the key to Saints success over the last few years and also, going even further back, the reason they were still competitive even when the outside backs and halves were hit and miss. Roby in particular is just so good at getting the most out of a pack of forwards.

You can generally get away with some weaker players in the backs if you're really dominant up front because teams don't get many opportunities to target those players weaknesses. It also helps when you've got quality players to fill in for the injured backs/halves. Even with Walmsley missing I thought Paasi was outstanding, Lees, Batchelor and Knowles are England internationals while Sironen was very impressive, as was Mata'utia when he wasn't banned. There's so much strength there that any team is likely to lose the forward battle even if there are some weaknesses on the flanks to be exploited.

[Agbrigg]

I think once again Saints will be the top team throughout the season. Next year is another matter because if Roby retires ,that will make a huge difference to them. He will be hard to replace, in fact he may be irreplaceable 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

On 16/02/2023 at 15:10, CiderWire said:

It will end on Saturday - due to the high body count after their battle with Penrith.

That aged well

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

On 17/02/2023 at 02:41, Oxford said:

I think the way they play has improved and I wouldn't use their outing at Warrington as a guide if that's what you're asking.

Are you saying they way they do have played in the preseason games ?

[Agbrigg]

On 17/02/2023 at 00:07, bobbruce said:

 Wigan are obviously weak in the pack but have the best backs in the league for me.
 

 

Not in my opinion, after what I saw against HKR , Saints wouldn't touch Wardle , King or Smith with a barge pole. Don't think they would be too fussed about the rest either. Maybe they might take French as a replacement Winger for Grace.

[Oxford]

6 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Are you saying they way they do have played in the preseason games ?

I don't understand the question, sorry!

[SalfordSlim]

On 17/02/2023 at 08:38, Exiled Wiganer said:

I would find a place for Field, to make it 4 v 9, and 4 out of 17 for the whole squad. And it’d be the same story across the league. It’s remarkable. Looking at the ages and lengths of contract, my money would be on this run leading to 8 on the trot. If I knew how to defer a post by a year, wearing my Harry Seldon hat, I would write 6 in a row, and 7 in a row posts now for 24 and 25. 

Out of interest who are you dropping out of Welsby, French or Makinson to "find a place" for Field?

Which of those 3 is he better than?

Whilst he does some amazing things, he's got some weaknesses in his game. Moreso than the others mentioned IMO.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

13 minutes ago, Oxford said:

I don't understand the question, sorry!

Meant are you saying Leeds have improved the way they are playing ?

[Oxford]

10 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Meant are you saying Leeds have improved the way they are playing ?

Yes I think they have, not enough yet but it will turn around.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

37 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Yes I think they have, not enough yet but it will turn around.

I have to disagree. 

The tactic of sitting back in defense hasn't worked in any of the friendlies or the Wire game. They just got overawed near their own line. The short kick off, early offload stuff is just giving away territory and possession. Experiments like moving players into different positions around the backline is going badly, loads of unforced errors and missed tackles....just don't see anything but regression from the strong second half of last season 

 

 

[JohnM]

Saints will dominate again this season...and next..etc. until another club attains their overall level of achievement on and off the pitch. Questions remain now that  Woolf has finally gone, post WCC, but the Owner, CEO , board etc seem streets ahead of that of Leeds and Wigan.

[Welshleaguelover]

Did anyone notice Lussick's kicks during the WCC? A couple of his kicks went miles over the winger and fullbacks head.

Is he the next Cunningham/Roby?

[Welshleaguelover]

13 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

I don´t think Saints dominance will last too much longer. A few lads retiring and the generation of saints players who stayed in the past won´t be the same with this younger lot, they will be off to the NRL. That limits the long term pillars to build around. Welsby is gone when his contract is up. An NRL club is going to offer him double what he can get here and he´s gone. 

I'm not sure about Welsby leaving.

From what I've seen he seems like a homebody, is a season ticket holder at Wigan athletic.

If Eamon McManus makes him a decent offer then I think there's a good chance he'll stay.

[Oxford]

1 hour ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

I have to disagree. 

The tactic of sitting back in defense hasn't worked in any of the friendlies or the Wire game. They just got overawed near their own line. The short kick off, early offload stuff is just giving away territory and possession. Experiments like moving players into different positions around the backline is going badly, loads of unforced errors and missed tackles....just don't see anything but regression from the strong second half of last season 

 

 

To my mind they had an off day and Wolves were on song and in the second half they were certainly better.

 

[Saint Toppy]

2 hours ago, EagleEyePie said:

I wouldn't say it's that remarkable in relation to where Saints strength lies. Only one of those mentioned above is a forward and it's the forwards that have been the key to Saints success over the last few years and also, going even further back, the reason they were still competitive even when the outside backs and halves were hit and miss. Roby in particular is just so good at getting the most out of a pack of forwards.

You can generally get away with some weaker players in the backs if you're really dominant up front because teams don't get many opportunities to target those players weaknesses. It also helps when you've got quality players to fill in for the injured backs/halves. Even with Walmsley missing I thought Paasi was outstanding, Lees, Batchelor and Knowles are England internationals while Sironen was very impressive, as was Mata'utia when he wasn't banned. There's so much strength there that any team is likely to lose the forward battle even if there are some weaknesses on the flanks to be exploited.

Your right in that most of the players missing were backs, though I forgot to mention Mata'utia who also missed 11 league games (through combination of injury & suspension).

Still even with significant numbers of the backs missing only Wigan & Salford scored more points and Saints defence was massively better than any other team.