5 in a row and counting: will Saints’ dominance ever end?

[Mr Frisky]

28 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Well when someone offers to double your wages minimum and you´ve won everything their is to win in the UK then I can see him going for a few years then coming back. 

Bit like when Tomkins went over - he went on big money and a big reputation and the Aussies didn't want to, or let him succeed- despite being as good as anyone in the NRL in his first season before he got injured. 

Maybe if he had gone to a Sydney club rather than NZ Warriors he may have been given some slack, as he would have been more acceptable to the Sydney based RL media but the Aussies tend to love our forwards but never the backs.

If Welsby did go it would be great if someone like James Graham who is well respected in the NRL and making a name in the media side if things could be on hand for help and advice. 

Saying that, when you play for the best team in the world the only way to go if you leave is down...

[Magic Superbeetle]

38 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

I don´t think Saints dominance will last too much longer. A few lads retiring and the generation of saints players who stayed in the past won´t be the same with this younger lot, they will be off to the NRL. That limits the long term pillars to build around. Welsby is gone when his contract is up. An NRL club is going to offer him double what he can get here and he´s gone. 

Roby and LMS are the only immediate retirees. The optimist in me think that LMS will be replaced with Thompson and if not Delaney will potentially be the next one off the production line. Roby is Roby and impossible to replace but Lussick will have been here a couple of years by the point he retires, and Pemberton will either step up, or we will go for one of the juniors in the market (Bowes at Wakefield, Balmworth at Hull). 

Lomax will take the captaincy from Roby. I know you can't predict how players will go in the mid to late 30s, but if anyone will emulate Roby, I can see Lomax doing it. Hes an incredible trainer and lives like a monk by all accounts, and is as influential on "culture" as Roby is currently. He has had to adapt his game time and again due to injury over the years and I would back him to do it again. I imagine he will do at least 2 years as captain, before Welsby or Bennison takes his place. George Whitby is a 1st year academy halfback and very highly rated may well be an option by then as well.

Walmsley is next and hes talking about playing in France 2025 - he will transition back to an impact prop from the metre eater he is currently, but thats fine. That just leaves Makinson whose currently over 30 whose a big problem for us to replace, but is younger than Walmsley/Lomax so has a bit more time for us to come up with a plan. 

As for pillars; I suspect Knowles and Lees will be lifers and Knowles will take the captaincy after Lomax. Hes already talked about his desire to captain the club and cant see him going anywhere until he achieves that.

Regarding Welsby/Dodd, I strongly suspect that one of the major reasons we didn't use the marquee rule to keep Thompson away from Bulldogs was these two, as with them both being homegrown, it would only count as 75k on the cap, and as a spine player will be significantly more impactful to keep them. Even if we cant agree new deals, both are contracted until 2026 though (Dodd has an option at the end of 2024 but again I think that's with a salary bump to marquee levels), and I cant see the club particularly eager to enter discussions to sell ahead of time. Even the Aussie press is talking about getting Welsby signed up for 2026, and then trying to negotiate with Saints to get him out of the final year of his contract. Ultimately though, I would like to think when Saints are dethroned, its due to someone catching us up, rather than people waiting for us to lose enough of our battles to keep our players that it weakens us sufficiently.

[Saint Toppy]

1 hour ago, Magic Superbeetle said:

Roby and LMS are the only immediate retirees. The optimist in me think that LMS will be replaced with Thompson and if not Delaney will potentially be the next one off the production line. Roby is Roby and impossible to replace but Lussick will have been here a couple of years by the point he retires, and Pemberton will either step up, or we will go for one of the juniors in the market (Bowes at Wakefield, Balmworth at Hull). 

Lomax will take the captaincy from Roby. I know you can't predict how players will go in the mid to late 30s, but if anyone will emulate Roby, I can see Lomax doing it. Hes an incredible trainer and lives like a monk by all accounts, and is as influential on "culture" as Roby is currently. He has had to adapt his game time and again due to injury over the years and I would back him to do it again. I imagine he will do at least 2 years as captain, before Welsby or Bennison takes his place. George Whitby is a 1st year academy halfback and very highly rated may well be an option by then as well.

Walmsley is next and hes talking about playing in France 2025 - he will transition back to an impact prop from the metre eater he is currently, but thats fine. That just leaves Makinson whose currently over 30 whose a big problem for us to replace, but is younger than Walmsley/Lomax so has a bit more time for us to come up with a plan. 

As for pillars; I suspect Knowles and Lees will be lifers and Knowles will take the captaincy after Lomax. Hes already talked about his desire to captain the club and cant see him going anywhere until he achieves that.

Regarding Welsby/Dodd, I strongly suspect that one of the major reasons we didn't use the marquee rule to keep Thompson away from Bulldogs was these two, as with them both being homegrown, it would only count as 75k on the cap, and as a spine player will be significantly more impactful to keep them. Even if we cant agree new deals, both are contracted until 2026 though (Dodd has an option at the end of 2024 but again I think that's with a salary bump to marquee levels), and I cant see the club particularly eager to enter discussions to sell ahead of time. Even the Aussie press is talking about getting Welsby signed up for 2026, and then trying to negotiate with Saints to get him out of the final year of his contract. Ultimately though, I would like to think when Saints are dethroned, its due to someone catching us up, rather than people waiting for us to lose enough of our battles to keep our players that it weakens us sufficiently.

From what i've see Will Roberts will be the next half back pushing for a 1st team squad place before George Whitby, and look out for Ciaran Nolan. He looks a couple of years away just yet but has the making of a top class 9.

Roby is irreplaceable so the 9 short is definately up for grabs next year, but for be the most pressing position to get sorted out is centre. Both Hopate & Hurrell are OOC so they'll definately have to bring someone in to take the 3 shirt, at least in the short term. I don't think Bruines is quite ready yet to step up and i'm not convinced by Davies at all as a centre. 

[Exiled Wiganer]

6 hours ago, SalfordSlim said:

Out of interest who are you dropping out of Welsby, French or Makinson to "find a place" for Field?

Which of those 3 is he better than?

Whilst he does some amazing things, he's got some weaknesses in his game. Moreso than the others mentioned IMO.

I hadn’t got that far, but Field is a truly special player to watch. 

[SalfordSlim]

25 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I hadn’t got that far, but Field is a truly special player to watch. 

Well you'd better get thinking then cos I want an answer.

Agree that he's capable of magic but he does make mistakes. There's no way he gets in ahead of Makinson and (IMO) Welsby is a more accomplished all-round player. So are you gonna leave Bevan out then?

 

[Cumbrian Fanatic]

5 hours ago, Magic Superbeetle said:

Lomax will take the captaincy from Roby. I know you can't predict how players will go in the mid to late 30s, but if anyone will emulate Roby, I can see Lomax doing it. Hes an incredible trainer and lives like a monk by all accounts, and is as influential on "culture" as Roby is currently. He has had to adapt his game time and again due to injury over the years and I would back him to do it again. I imagine he will do at least 2 years as captain, before Welsby or Bennison takes his place. George Whitby is a 1st year academy halfback and very highly rated may well be an option by then as well.

Interesting that you should post this about Lomax. I was at a Kyle Amor testimonial event in Whitehaven shortly before St Helens flew out to Australia and Tommy Makinson described Lomax as the ultimate professional, he said that he is so well prepared that he even walks his dog up hill backwards in order to stretch hi hamstrings. Up until now I'd never considered Lomax as one of the agenda setters at Saints - I don't know why as you don't get to spend so long at such a successful club without bringing a lot to the organisation.

[Oxford]

11 minutes ago, Cumbrian Fanatic said:

Up until now I'd never considered Lomax as one of the agenda setters at Saints

Jackson Hastings is a big fan of Lomax as a player so there must be something there.

 

[Cumbrian Fanatic]

6 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Jackson Hastings is a big fan of Lomax as a player so there must be something there.

 

Absolutely. I've always thought him a good player, just not one who had a major influence on the wider culture of the team. As I said, I really don't know why I thought of him like that

[Magic Superbeetle]

3 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

From what i've see Will Roberts will be the next half back pushing for a 1st team squad place before George Whitby, and look out for Ciaran Nolan. He looks a couple of years away just yet but has the making of a top class 9.

Roby is irreplaceable so the 9 short is definately up for grabs next year, but for be the most pressing position to get sorted out is centre. Both Hopate & Hurrell are OOC so they'll definately have to bring someone in to take the 3 shirt, at least in the short term. I don't think Bruines is quite ready yet to step up and i'm not convinced by Davies at all as a centre. 

Roberts seems good from the bits I’ve seen but Whitby has the rep to be another elite spine player we produce. Could well end up in another Richardson/Dodd situation depending on how they both develop. We seem to struggle with developing outside backs at the moment, but they seem to have gotten spine players down.

I sort of hope Hurrell gets one more year as he deserves the 3 shirt. I would have given it to him this year but I suppose it wasn’t worth the drama of demoting Hopoate. As much as fans deride Hurrell he has a fantastic year with us last year, and had a great game in the WCC. Losing/ replacing players like Hopoate, Hurrell and Mata’utia whilst difficult are going to be par for the course. Figuring out which ones are worth fighting for and which ones you have to accept leaving is something we have been really good at in the recent past with Bentley, Coote, Thompson and co all taking better offers that we decided we shouldn’t or couldn’t match. 

[Oxford]

11 hours ago, Cumbrian Fanatic said:

Absolutely. I've always thought him a good player, just not one who had a major influence on the wider culture of the team. As I said, I really don't know why I thought of him like that

Because he does stuff that is largely invisible and I assume is one of those organising players I imagine and the thing about that kind of activity is that it's easily missed when following the ball. Sneyd very similar of course and you can get to the end of the match and think they've gone missing.

[Jughead]

12 hours ago, Cumbrian Fanatic said:

Interesting that you should post this about Lomax. I was at a Kyle Amor testimonial event in Whitehaven shortly before St Helens flew out to Australia and Tommy Makinson described Lomax as the ultimate professional, he said that he is so well prepared that he even walks his dog up hill backwards in order to stretch hi hamstrings. Up until now I'd never considered Lomax as one of the agenda setters at Saints - I don't know why as you don't get to spend so long at such a successful club without bringing a lot to the organisation.

Lomax is massive for all of that. You probably don’t see that much footage of him laying down the law but on Sky but he’s a key figure in the club behind the scenes and on the training ground. He’s also a massive Rugby League nerd and would spend hours watching, analysing and talking about the game, if allowed to. 

[hw88]

23 hours ago, SalfordSlim said:

With half our team missing...

TBH if SL was a comp where the league winners were crowned champs then you'd struggle to look past Saints as they have such great strength in depth outside their obviously superior first 17. The fact is play-off games can always throw up a surprise. Salford were well beaten in the 2019 GF but last year if a couple of ref calls went the other way and Croft/Ackers played the result might well have been different. Are Salford a better team than Saints? Nope. But the gap isn't huge and any team playing "above themselves" for 80 minutes and a slight off-day for Saints would quite easily mean they don't win this year's comp.

Logic says Saints again but come play-off time anything can happen.

If that were the case we'd be looking at 7 champions rather than 4. Saints' current 4 on the bounce would be 1 (although they were top from '05 - '08).

 

[CiderWire]

22 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

That aged well

Happy to be proved wrong, particularly in this way. I was hardly alone in thinking it might be a bridge too far for Saints.

[Oxford]

18 minutes ago, CiderWire said:

Happy to be proved wrong, particularly in this way. I was hardly alone in thinking it might be a bridge too far for Saints.

When they managed it largely without Dodds last year you'd have to put them odds on again this year but I hope it's not we all need a change at present except for Saints fans of course.

[Saint Toppy]

13 hours ago, Cumbrian Fanatic said:

Interesting that you should post this about Lomax. I was at a Kyle Amor testimonial event in Whitehaven shortly before St Helens flew out to Australia and Tommy Makinson described Lomax as the ultimate professional, he said that he is so well prepared that he even walks his dog up hill backwards in order to stretch hi hamstrings. Up until now I'd never considered Lomax as one of the agenda setters at Saints - I don't know why as you don't get to spend so long at such a successful club without bringing a lot to the organisation.

Lomax is a great example of a consummate professional who's had to constantly adapt even from a young age. He had to adapt to play on after a fractured skull as a youngster. In his early career he struggled to put the size & weight on so went on an intensive weights programme, but this ultimately led to putting too much strain on his joints & other muscles and a constant stream of injuries. So he changed his training routine completely to focus more on flexibility rather than muscle strength and this seems to have worked for him in being able to stay relatively injury free for the last few years. Lomax & Roby are the kind of professionals you want all your youngsters to aspire to be like.

[Oxford]

What tends to be forgotten when we lament Saints dominance or celebrate their WCC success is that A) They're a product of Super League as much as they've shaped themselves. B) if the quality of SL was as poor as many claim on here it wouldn't matter how much Saints shaped themselves they'd never be able to go to Oz and win.

So I just thought I'd remind you.

 

[Cw25]

Saints are the best by a mile. They will only lose games if they decide to rest players. Certain to win everything.