Sun 18th Jun: CCQF: Wigan Warriors v Warrington Wolves KO 14:30 (BBC)

[Dunbar]

12 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Totally wrong Dav, that is far to complimentary for the Warrington team what a compete utter shambles they are, did the England captain play?

Williams would be the last player I would lay any blame at.  He was the only creative option for Wire, their only genuine kicking option and resorted to running yards because no-one else was.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

Williams would be the last player I would lay any blame at.  He was the only creative option for Wire, their only genuine kicking option and resorted to running yards because no-one else was.

Yup. I expect he was top metre maker again as he took the line on time and time again. In reality, the thing that lost it was basic errors. Individuals just dropping the ball time and again. 

Despite probably 20 errors plus we still really should have won it, a forward pass, a double movement, Clarke held up by inches. 

Wigan defended for their lives, Wire kept dropping it. It was relatively simple. 

[Barry Badrinath]

8 hours ago, Dave T said:

Yup. I expect he was top metre maker again as he took the line on time and time again. In reality, the thing that lost it was basic errors. Individuals just dropping the ball time and again. 

Despite probably 20 errors plus we still really should have won it, a forward pass, a double movement, Clarke held up by inches. 

Wigan defended for their lives, Wire kept dropping it. It was relatively simple. 

It was exactly the same as the game at our place in April, we couldn't get out of our 40, just kept dropping the ball,  wigan poked ahead on the scoreboard and we just couldn't get up field till really late on

[Dave T]

43 minutes ago, Barry Badrinath said:

It was exactly the same as the game at our place in April, we couldn't get out of our 40, just kept dropping the ball,  wigan poked ahead on the scoreboard and we just couldn't get up field till really late on

I'm very critical of Powell, his selections and sometimes how he has us playing, and whilst I am frustrated with his love for PM, the other day it is hard to look at it tactically too much when player after player just drop the ball. It was relentless. Of course some were forced by Wigan's defence, but many were pretty average errors. 

I'm not sure whether that is confidence, happiness, concentration, simply execution or what, or just one of those days. 

One of my issues that worries me with Powell is that whilst he came in and cracked Eggs last year, plenty of players still there were around when that was happening - I always think it's a risk being so aggressive with change, it never massively seems like a happy-go-lucky camp at Wire really. 

[Damien]

11 hours ago, Dave T said:

Yup. I expect he was top metre maker again as he took the line on time and time again. In reality, the thing that lost it was basic errors. Individuals just dropping the ball time and again. 

Despite probably 20 errors plus we still really should have won it, a forward pass, a double movement, Clarke held up by inches. 

Wigan defended for their lives, Wire kept dropping it. It was relatively simple. 

I'm not even sure if we did. Warrington were very rarely down Wigan's end and probably out of the few times they were scored two and fluffed another with a forward pass. It was Warrington's errors that saved Wigan.

If Warrington had simply completed their sets and kicked for field position I think they win by a couple of scores. Some pages back near the start of the second half I said something along the lines of if Warrington can keep hold of the ball and create mismatches on the Wigan line, against Wigan's 12 men and small forwards, then they'll win. They just never did that enough. Near enough every time they did they scored or very nearly did.

As you say as dire as they were they still only lost because they chose a centre who cant pass to be a playmaker and who couldn't pull off a pass at the end.

[Exiled Wiganer]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

I'm not even sure if we did. Warrington were very rarely down Wigan's end and probably out of the few times they were scored two and fluffed another with a forward pass. It was Warrington's errors that saved Wigan.

If Warrington had simply completed their sets and kicked for field position I think they win by a couple of scores. Some pages back near the start of the second half I said something along the lines of if Warrington can keep hold of the ball and create mismatches on the Wigan line, against Wigan's 12 men and small forwards, then they'll win. They just never did that enough. Near enough every time they did they scored or very nearly did.

As you say as dire as they were they still only lost because they chose a centre who cant pass to be a playmaker and who couldn't pull off a pass at the end.

I think that under states Wigan’s contribution to our win. Our methodical approach to eating up the ground, our excellent kick and chase and sustained pressure won that game, in my opinion. We built pressure and forced errors. Brilliant news about Havard this week - we can build a front row around him (and Hill looks a huge talent). We may, one of these days, have a good pack. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

I'm not even sure if we did. Warrington were very rarely down Wigan's end and probably out of the few times they were scored two and fluffed another with a forward pass. It was Warrington's errors that saved Wigan.

If Warrington had simply completed their sets and kicked for field position I think they win by a couple of scores. Some pages back near the start of the second half I said something along the lines of if Warrington can keep hold of the ball and create mismatches on the Wigan line, against Wigan's 12 men and small forwards, then they'll win. They just never did that enough. Near enough every time they did they scored or very nearly did.

As you say as dire as they were they still only lost because they chose a centre who cant pass to be a playmaker and who couldn't pull off a pass at the end.

I try and remain positive about stuff like this, put it down to a bad day at the office, but it really does feel like such an open goal that it's one of the most frustrating losses for a long time. 

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I think that under states Wigan’s contribution to our win. Our methodical approach to eating up the ground, our excellent kick and chase and sustained pressure won that game, in my opinion. We built pressure and forced errors. Brilliant news about Havard this week - we can build a front row around him (and Hill looks a huge talent). We may, one of these days, have a good pack. 

That may be the case but the vast majority of Warringtons errors were completely unforced. It wasn't wigan's defence making Warrington completely unorganised either with literally no one at the side of Williams at times so he just kicked on the 4th while in acres of space. When Warrington actually kept hold of the ball and had any sort of shape they made yards and got to Wigan's line, and scored or very nearly scored, almost every time.

[Dunbar]

One of the elements that lead to errors is fatigue and I think Wigan's game plan on the day was really excellent and developed that fatigue.  What may look like an unforced error may have its roots in that game plan.

The Wigan backs carried the ball superbly, turning the Wire pack around time and again and made huge metres - that type of defending is extremely tiring.  Then, the Wigan kick and chase was excellent and (relatively fresh) forwards could pressure Warrington into mistakes.

There was a lot of talk pre-game was about the size of the Warrington pack and how it would blow Wigan away but the game plan that Wigan executed simply didn't let that happen.

[dkw]

Warrington lost twice, once to Wigan, once to Warrington.

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

One of the elements that lead to errors is fatigue and I think Wigan's game plan on the day was really excellent and developed that fatigue.  What may look like an unforced error may have its roots in that game plan.

The Wigan backs carried the ball superbly, turning the Wire pack around time and again and made huge metres - that type of defending is extremely tiring.  Then, the Wigan kick and chase was excellent and (relatively fresh) forwards could pressure Warrington into mistakes.

There was a lot of talk pre-game was about the size of the Warrington pack and how it would blow Wigan away but the game plan that Wigan executed simply didn't let that happen.

Warrington were making these errors and were disorganised and without shape from the kick off. That's not fatigue.

[Dave T]

40 minutes ago, Damien said:

Warrington were making these errors and were disorganised and without shape from the kick off. That's not fatigue.

I agree. Wigan deserve credit, but in reality they didn't force the 47% 1st half completion rate. That's a freak thing that isn't driven just by one team being better. 

Let's look at the first try. Wigan got the ball because Danny Walker forgot how to be an acting half and was looking the wrong way.

[Dunbar]

38 minutes ago, Damien said:

Warrington were making these errors and were disorganised and without shape from the kick off. That's not fatigue.

I agree that Warrington were disorganised.  But by the 25th minute, Warrington had lost the ball in the tackle or knocked on 3 times and Wigan once.

If, later in the game, the Warrington errors grew then my point is that I believe that the fatigue the Wigan game plan induced was part of the reason.

But it isn’t just about errors.  There is no doubt in my mind that the Warrington pack were nullified somewhat by Wigan eating metres through the outside backs, finding their fronts, getting quick play the balls and making the big Warrington forwards turn around in defence and that fatigue limited their go forward when they had the ball.

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I agree that Warrington were disorganised.  But by the 25th minute, Warrington had lost the ball in the tackle or knocked on 3 times and Wigan once.

If, later in the game, the Warrington errors grew then my point is that I believe that the fatigue the Wigan game plan induced was part of the reason.

But it isn’t just about errors.  There is no doubt in my mind that the Warrington pack were nullified somewhat by Wigan eating metres through the outside backs, finding their fronts, getting quick play the balls and making the big Warrington forwards turn around in defence and that fatigue limited their go forward when they had the ball.

That is a touch selective in errors though. Just watching back, by minute 25 we had turned the ball over 5 times and failed to field one kick. 

The next two sets after that 25 minute mark saw us turn the ball over too. 

You could play the Kangaroos and it'd be unlikely you'd make 12 first half errors with the ball. 

[Dave T]

As an aside is there anywhere that stats are available for the game? 

[Damien]

21 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I agree. Wigan deserve credit, but in reality they didn't force the 47% 1st half completion rate. That's a freak thing that isn't driven just by one team being better. 

Let's look at the first try. Wigan got the ball because Danny Walker forgot how to be an acting half and was looking the wrong way.

Even the shambolic drive before that, which should have been a drop out for Wigan due to the Warrington player getting driven over the dead ball line, but instead was a penalty and sending off due to Ellis being an idiot.

I think Wigan, and Warrington, performed much better when we beat you away earlier in the season.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Damien

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, Damien said:

Even the shambolic drive before that, which should have been a drop out for Wigan due to the Warrington player getting driven over the dead ball line, but instead was a penalty and sending off due to Ellis being an idiot.

I think Wigan, and Warrington, performed much better when we beat you away earlier in the season.

Yes, I almost highlighted that one, but felt there were enough! 

Real lack of care and attention and/or concentration, if you are having to give yourself up after crossing, get to the floor! 

[Dunbar]

9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

That is a touch selective in errors though. Just watching back, by minute 25 we had turned the ball over 5 times and failed to field one kick. 

The next two sets after that 25 minute mark saw us turn the ball over too. 

You could play the Kangaroos and it'd be unlikely you'd make 12 first half errors with the ball. 

True.  But it's pretty difficult to attribute a failure to get to acting halfback as anything other than a brain fart.

I am not trying to say that Warrington weren't a bit shambolic but I am saying that the Wigan tactics, in particular their use of strong outside back carries, helped to fatigue and nulify the larger Warrington pack.  If you don't agree then fair enough.

[Davo5]

1 hour ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I think that under states Wigan’s contribution to our win. Our methodical approach to eating up the ground, our excellent kick and chase and sustained pressure won that game, in my opinion. We built pressure and forced errors. Brilliant news about Havard this week - we can build a front row around him (and Hill looks a huge talent). We may, one of these days, have a good pack. 

Hill looks like he’ll be a top player for years to come,add Havard & get our overseas recruitment right & we could finally have a pack that lays a platform for our exciting backline.

[Damien]

28 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Hill looks like he’ll be a top player for years to come,add Havard & get our overseas recruitment right & we could finally have a pack that lays a platform for our exciting backline.

I think the problem, going back a good few years, is that our recruitment has been so poor. These young lads have been badly let down and we should have been signing big, experienced forwards to supplement them. Instead we have signed the likes of Mago and Singleton. I'd kill for some real size and forwards like Paasi to supplement these guys.

[Davo5]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

I think the problem, going back a good few years, is that our recruitment has been so poor. These young lads have been badly let down and we should have been signing big, experienced forwards to supplement them. Instead we have signed the likes of Mago and Singleton. I'd kill for some real size and forwards like Paasi to supplement these guys.

Absolutely some of front row recruitment ranges from the laughable,Tautai & Clark to the just plain poor,Hamlin & a George Burgess that everyone bar Wigan knew was playing on one leg,Singleton,Mago,Ellis,Navarrete,Dudson.

[Damien]

27 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Absolutely some of front row recruitment ranges from the laughable,Tautai & Clark to the just plain poor,Hamlin & a George Burgess that everyone bar Wigan knew was playing on one leg,Singleton,Mago,Ellis,Navarrete,Dudson.

Oh my, its absolutely shocking when you see them all listed like that. I had completely forgot/blanked out some of those!

[Exiled Wiganer]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

Oh my, its absolutely shocking when you see them all listed like that. I had completely forgot/blanked out some of those!

There was one we signed from Hull - Lautai?? Plus the non wrecking ball. 

I thought Scott Taylor was a good signing, but we failed to keep him. 

Smith and Pongia - those were the days. 

[LeeF]

On 20/06/2023 at 14:03, Dave T said:

As an aside is there anywhere that stats are available for the game? 

Probably hidden away somewhere on the dark web