Sat 22 July : Betfred RL Challenge Cup Semi Final : St Helens v Leigh Leopards KO 14:30 BBC1

[LeytherRob]

43 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

Horrific angle. Head down and smashes into the side of the joint with his head/shoulder. Paasi's career might well be over.

Amazing effort and desire, but the sort of technique that should not be held up as how to tackle.

I think he should have been banned for reckless and dangerous play. These disciplinary decisions do set rather a dangerous precedent. It is okay to go flying in and contact the joint with shoulder/head as long as one has arms outstretched.

What's 'head down' got to do with anything? That's literally one of the most basic principles of making a tackle - to bend your back and tackle with the shoulder.

[Jughead]

Two shocking tackles with two lengthy injuries, one potentially career ending (specialists’ opinions have been sought after) and no punishment at the disciplinary. Astounded, really. Lost for words for the disciplinary. I’m generally supportive of them and think they do an increasingly tough job given the lawsuits out and the ever changing rules but this is really disappointing. 

[meast]

18 hours ago, phiggins said:

What part of their body should a tackler make contact with? Shoulder is fine as long as you wrap your arms around to make a tackle. 

I'm talking about shoulder/head initiating the contact, Asiata's hands/arms made secondary contact after he initially makes contact with the shoulder.

As we have seen though, the RFL MRP deemed nothing untoward so I expect there to be many many instances of this kind of tackle now until they do deem it dangerous.

The reaction from people who see nothing wrong with it will be interesting, especially Leythers.

[StandOffHalf]

12 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

What's 'head down' got to do with anything? That's literally one of the most basic principles of making a tackle - to bend your back and tackle with the shoulder.

As a visual, it adds to the feeling of a dangerous, out-of-control action. In and of itself, there nothing wrong with head down, but I don't like the look of this incident. He is diving like he's jumping into a pool. His outstretched arms are like a swimmer going beyond Paasi. The arm contact is secondary. The head and shoulder catapult towards his target.

Edited July 25, 2023 by StandOffHalf

[LeytherRob]

1 minute ago, GeordieSaint said:

Paasi can’t fly… at some point his legs are going to hit the ground. When his left leg does, Asiata goes straight through that standing left knee. I am genuinely not stating it was intentional. Asiata was desperate to stop Paasi scoring. What I am however, stating is the technique is reckless, and dangerous. I expect it’ll be outlawed (rightly) in due course. 

a standing leg is a stationary leg as per the RFL's rules. It's how a canonball tackle is defined. If we're saying you can't tackle someones leg whilst it's in contact with the ground, then you're basically saying the tackle area is restricted to a players torso. Which would make a whole bunch of tackles from the game ban worthy, including several made by Saints when chopping the legs out from under Leigh players.

[Jughead]

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/st-helens-suffer-two-huge-season-ending-injuries-paul-wellens-calls-out-governing-bodys-failure-to-protect-players-following-controversial-tackles

Nothing I really disagree with there. Some questions need answers and I’m sure the club will get a response privately, I don’t expect it to become a public slanging match. 

As for Wellens’ comments about the sport, I agree. I think it’s an incredible demanding and tough sport and I admire players who go out and play each week but allowing the multitude of “tackles” that were made on Saturday sets a dangerous precedent and I don’t think a sport that allows thuggery and genuine attempts at injuring people is for me if this becomes the norm. 

[LeytherRob]

4 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

As a visual, it adds to the feeling of a dangerous, out-of-control action. In and of itself, there nothing wrong with head down, but I don't like the look of this incident. He is diving like a swimmer. His outstretched arms are like a swimmer going beyond Paasi. The arm contact is secondary. The head and shoulder catapult towards his target.

 

Ok, so based on what you've just said, which is the illegal tackle below - Paasi who is leading with his shoulder, head down in the start of a diving motion, or Welsby with arm contact primary?

 

Also, you say 'His outstretched arms are like a swimmer going beyond Paasi. The arm contact is secondary' but that just described every legal wrapping motion tackle in the game. It's impossible to wrap your arms around an opponent without your arms going beyond them.

The point i'm making here (and yes i am being facetious) is that a lot of the descriptions people are giving for why these tackles are so bad, are just describing the normal tackle technique. 

[StandOffHalf]

Good comments from Wellens. I hadn't realised until now that Asiata had also injured Knowles and McCarthy-Scarsbrook.

[LeytherRob]

6 minutes ago, Jughead said:

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/st-helens-suffer-two-huge-season-ending-injuries-paul-wellens-calls-out-governing-bodys-failure-to-protect-players-following-controversial-tackles

Nothing I really disagree with there. Some questions need answers and I’m sure the club will get a response privately, I don’t expect it to become a public slanging match. 

As for Wellens’ comments about the sport, I agree. I think it’s an incredible demanding and tough sport and I admire players who go out and play each week but allowing the multitude of “tackles” that were made on Saturday sets a dangerous precedent and I don’t think a sport that allows thuggery and genuine attempts at injuring people is for me if this becomes the norm. 

Again, i'm going to have to defer to Paul Wellens on this one:

“What I would say in this situation is no coach or player wants players to suffer injuries but injuries are part and parcel of the sport. Ours is a collision sport and things can go wrong at times."

Any suggestions that Asiata's goal when making a split second tackle to try and save a try in the final minutes of a semi final was to specifically injure a player is just downright nonsensical.

[hullste]

2 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

 

Ok, so based on what you've just said, which is the illegal tackle below - Paasi who is leading with his shoulder, head down in the start of a diving motion, or Welsby with arm contact primary?

 

Also, you say 'His outstretched arms are like a swimmer going beyond Paasi. The arm contact is secondary' but that just described every legal wrapping motion tackle in the game. It's impossible to wrap your arms around an opponent without your arms going beyond them.

The point i'm making here (and yes i am being facetious) is that a lot of the descriptions people are giving for why these tackles are so bad, are just describing the normal tackle technique. 

I didn't realise it but actually 4 players have suffered knee injuries as a result of one players tackle technique. 1 season ending and one not only season ending but possibly career ending with ACL, MCL and ankle ligament damage. Yet those on here still say it's unlucky and part and parcel of a contact sport Wello spot on with his comments and rightfully fuming with the RFL for failing in it's duty of care to protect players. I suspect this won't be the last we here of this.

[Jughead]

Just now, LeytherRob said:

Again, i'm going to have to defer to Paul Wellens on this one:

“What I would say in this situation is no coach or player wants players to suffer injuries but injuries are part and parcel of the sport. Ours is a collision sport and things can go wrong at times."

Any suggestions that Asiata's goal when making a split second tackle to try and save a try in the final minutes of a semi final was to specifically injure a player is just downright nonsensical.

Yeah, he went done four blokes so your point is a bit moot there. 

I’m not sure what you’re attempting to gain with Wellens’ quote. It’s really not particularly relevant. Things went wrong for Asiata on Saturday. Again. And again. And again. Injuries are part and parcel of the game but so is player welfare and a disciplinary panel that reviews tackles and player activity. I suspect the “Bowling Ball” (I dunno, I’ve just made a random name up, we’ve got the hip drop, chicken wing etc) will be outlawed in the next year. 

[phiggins]

2 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Yeah, he went done four blokes so your point is a bit moot there. 

I’m not sure what you’re attempting to gain with Wellens’ quote. It’s really not particularly relevant. Things went wrong for Asiata on Saturday. Again. And again. And again. Injuries are part and parcel of the game but so is player welfare and a disciplinary panel that reviews tackles and player activity. I suspect the “Bowling Ball” (I dunno, I’ve just made a random name up, we’ve got the hip drop, chicken wing etc) will be outlawed in the next year. 

I think something will come in. Not sure what though. How will you define the 'bowling ball'? Like cannonball is the third man hitting a standing leg, or hip drop is leaving the ground to put all your weight on a defender.

How would you word it, to avoid that tackle technique? 

[StandOffHalf]

18 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

 

Ok, so based on what you've just said, which is the illegal tackle below - Paasi who is leading with his shoulder, head down in the start of a diving motion, or Welsby with arm contact primary?

 

Also, you say 'His outstretched arms are like a swimmer going beyond Paasi. The arm contact is secondary' but that just described every legal wrapping motion tackle in the game. It's impossible to wrap your arms around an opponent without your arms going beyond them.

The point i'm making here (and yes i am being facetious) is that a lot of the descriptions people are giving for why these tackles are so bad, are just describing the normal tackle technique. 

The Welsby one just looks awkward. He slaps him because there are two others in the the tackle and nowhere for his left arm to go. Paasi head down and wrapping the legs front-on. All good. Nothing dangerous or reckless from him. Penalty for the Welsby high contact is how I would have adjudicated on that.

Asiata uses his arms to give a visual that resembles a tackle. He may as well not have had arms though. They are out in front as he pushes off the diving board and his head and shoulder shatter into the knee of Paasi.

Edited July 25, 2023 by StandOffHalf

[hullste]

4 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Again, i'm going to have to defer to Paul Wellens on this one:

“What I would say in this situation is no coach or player wants players to suffer injuries but injuries are part and parcel of the sport. Ours is a collision sport and things can go wrong at times."

Any suggestions that Asiata's goal when making a split second tackle to try and save a try in the final minutes of a semi final was to specifically injure a player is just downright nonsensical.

I certainly haven't said it was deliberate, the one on Paasi he was making a desperate attempt to stop a try but if we see so many knee injuries in the one game from so called legal tackles by 1 player something is not right, but through their own actions or lack of  the RFL have given the green light for thos techniques to continue and be adopted by others

[LeytherRob]

5 minutes ago, hullste said:

I didn't realise it but actually 4 players have suffered knee injuries as a result of one players tackle technique. 1 season ending and one not only season ending but possibly career ending with ACL, MCL and ankle ligament damage. Yet those on here still say it's unlucky and part and parcel of a contact sport Wello spot on with his comments and rightfully fuming with the RFL for failing in it's duty of care to protect players. I suspect this won't be the last we here of this.

Not my words Ste, Paul Wellens' words

https://www.totalrl.com/paul-wellens-on-morgan-knowles-incident-mike-cooper-injury-and-rugby-league-as-a-collision-sport/

 

[EagleEyePie]

13 minutes ago, Jughead said:

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/st-helens-suffer-two-huge-season-ending-injuries-paul-wellens-calls-out-governing-bodys-failure-to-protect-players-following-controversial-tackles

Nothing I really disagree with there. Some questions need answers and I’m sure the club will get a response privately, I don’t expect it to become a public slanging match. 

As for Wellens’ comments about the sport, I agree. I think it’s an incredible demanding and tough sport and I admire players who go out and play each week but allowing the multitude of “tackles” that were made on Saturday sets a dangerous precedent and I don’t think a sport that allows thuggery and genuine attempts at injuring people is for me if this becomes the norm. 

His point about the medical reports is nonsense. When Cooper was injured they viewed medical reports because they had deemed the tackle to be foul play and injury is an aggravating factor. Knowles was given a lengthy suspension because an injury occurred while committing foul play, not because no foul play occurred but Cooper got injured.

Injury is not the determining factor in whether a player is charged. They determine whether a tackle is foul play and if they decide it is they will then look at aggravating factors such as injury and view medical reports. Why on earth would medical reports matter if they've decided the tackle isn't foul play?

[Segovia Carpet]

As you say Jughead 'Someone has to be summonsed. Basically every dressing room should be addressed by referees now to state such takes be outlawed and immediately dealt with a red.

 

[LeytherRob]

2 minutes ago, hullste said:

I certainly haven't said it was deliberate, the one on Paasi he was making a desperate attempt to stop a try but if we see so many knee injuries in the one game from so called legal tackles by 1 player something is not right, but through their own actions or lack of  the RFL have given the green light for thos techniques to continue and be adopted by others

It was a reply to Jughead who described it as 'a genuine attempt at injury'

[Segovia Carpet]

*tackles*

[LeytherRob]

9 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Yeah, he went done four blokes so your point is a bit moot there. 

I’m not sure what you’re attempting to gain with Wellens’ quote. It’s really not particularly relevant. Things went wrong for Asiata on Saturday. Again. And again. And again. Injuries are part and parcel of the game but so is player welfare and a disciplinary panel that reviews tackles and player activity. I suspect the “Bowling Ball” (I dunno, I’ve just made a random name up, we’ve got the hip drop, chicken wing etc) will be outlawed in the next year. 

It is relevant, because it relates directly to your assertion that it was a genuine attempt to injure by Asiata

[StandOffHalf]

9 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Yeah, he went done four blokes so your point is a bit moot there. 

I’m not sure what you’re attempting to gain with Wellens’ quote. It’s really not particularly relevant. Things went wrong for Asiata on Saturday. Again. And again. And again. Injuries are part and parcel of the game but so is player welfare and a disciplinary panel that reviews tackles and player activity. I suspect the “Bowling Ball” (I dunno, I’ve just made a random name up, we’ve got the hip drop, chicken wing etc) will be outlawed in the next year. 

Daisycutter Dive?

[Jughead]

Just now, LeytherRob said:

It is relevant, because it relates directly to your assertion that it was a genuine attempt to injure by Asiata

It’s not relevant. Players get things wrong whether that’s through many factors, intent included. Expecting a punishment when players do wrong is entirely fair and understandable, especially when a player, let’s call him John for this example, injuries four players with very similar tackle techniques, resulting in two season long injuries and one bloke now seeking specialist advice from surgeons in Germany as to whether he can continue doing his job. 

If the only defence you have is recycling an irrelevant quote, it’s telling. 

[hullste]

Strong words from Wello

[johnh1]

1 hour ago, Jughead said:

Two shocking tackles with two lengthy injuries, one potentially career ending (specialists’ opinions have been sought after) and no punishment at the disciplinary. Astounded, really. Lost for words for the disciplinary. I’m generally supportive of them and think they do an increasingly tough job given the lawsuits out and the ever changing rules but this is really disappointing. 

I assume you therefore think that Lees should have been banned for a lot more than two games for his horrific, off the ball attack on Shane Wright that ended his season weeks ago?

[Jughead]

3 minutes ago, johnh1 said:

I assume you therefore think that Lees should have been banned for a lot more than two games for his horrific, off the ball attack on Shane Wright that ended his season weeks ago?

Lees made no contact with Wright’s lower body so it’s difficult to compare the two plus that was one incident rather than four. Was I surprised he only got two games? Yeah, I was expecting more but that’s the way the disciplinary works. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Jughead